Bottlecaps 2.1 UPDATE REQUIRED - HARDFORK JULY 4 2014 to 200% Annual PoS

[kslavik]

So, who is finding POS blocks? Stake coins by themselves? No need to run GPU to find POS blocks?
How is "proof-of-stake" : 0.00390625 number is used for? Does it change?

[ISAWHIM]

I have 220 coins available to be staked. (22 mined blocks from the 3rd of last month. There was 31 days last month.)

I have since found 350 coins, (35 blocks), and have 0 staked coins.

Like I asked before... how random is "stake" coins generation, once they are available to be staked?

At this rate, if I get 1 stake-coin now... that is less than 1/200th. And I have to wait for 60-90 MORE days before that 1/200th produces 5/100th of a coin. That is 5% / 200 = 0.025% gain for holdings. (That is if I get 1 staked-coin now... Which I have not gotten yet.)

I don't know what the point of waiting an additional 60-90 days, after the first 30 days. Why not just make it 60-90 days to start-off? For such a small reward, it should just be 30 days, and 0.05%, for all holdings, not random rewards worth nano-cents. (Smaller block rewards would be better too. For increased value.)

FYI: I am buying CAP at every low. lol... it is cheaper than mining it. Some people just don't know how to value their earnings, or a lot of people just don't mind parting with a loss. My gain!

[butjust41day]

I have 220 coins available to be staked. (22 mined blocks from the 3rd of last month. There was 31 days last month.)

I have since found 350 coins, (35 blocks), and have 0 staked coins.

Like I asked before... how random is "stake" coins generation, once they are available to be staked?

At this rate, if I get 1 stake-coin now... that is less than 1/200th. And I have to wait for 60-90 MORE days before that 1/200th produces 5/100th of a coin. That is 5% / 200 = 0.025% gain for holdings. (That is if I get 1 staked-coin now... Which I have not gotten yet.)

I don't know what the point of waiting an additional 60-90 days, after the first 30 days. Why not just make it 60-90 days to start-off? For such a small reward, it should just be 30 days, and 0.05%, for all holdings, not random rewards worth nano-cents. (Smaller block rewards would be better too. For increased value.)

FYI: I am buying CAP at every low. lol... it is cheaper than mining it. Some people just don't know how to value their earnings, or a lot of people just don't mind parting with a loss. My gain!

Well as far as I know I mined the first POS block. I posted about it on the official forum as shyliar (my aka on all forums other than bitcoin) you can read that if you want. The value of the block was zero. You can look through the block chain explorer and easily find all the POS blocks. Just look at the difficulty of each particular block and they jump right out at you. Currently the POS reward is very low and as you know from reading this thread it is going to increase soon. You would have to contact the original developer to have any insight into why he picked a 30 day period. As a programmer in other areas I pick certain parameters just because I have to make a choice out of a range of parameters to get the job done. Sometimes there are scientific facts, formulas or accepted conventions that determine my choices. I would not be surprised that many of the choices of how coins work are based on a personal selection of a range of parameters. I also would expect (and hope) that most decisions were based on various financial facts, formulas and accepted convention.

The point of minting is purely to make the network stronger. Financial gain is the second motivation; but, that gain is small. If you look at the various articles on compound interest though it has advantages for the long term holder.

 

[ISAWHIM]

Yea, none of my blocks are zero... not yet... soon I hope!

Got a link to your post? I have no idea what the "official forum" is... since the coin does not even have an "official website"... Though I would like to make one, it would not be official.

Finding lots of blocks though. Nice diff level to solo-mine.

[JesstersDead]

Yea, none of my blocks are zero... not yet... soon I hope!

Got a link to your post? I have no idea what the "official forum" is... since the coin does not even have an "official website"... Though I would like to make one, it would not be official.

Finding lots of blocks though. Nice diff level to solo-mine.

CAP's Forum - https://cryptocointalk.com/forum/242-bottlecaps-cap/

[kslavik]

Seems like another fork: http://www.bottlecapspool.com/ is on a different chain again ahead of everybody else

[Lauda]

Seems like another fork: http://www.bottlecapspool.com/ is on a different chain again ahead of everybody else

From the pool:

Current Block   58,173

From the block explorer:

Block Count:
58,164 [57 blocks ahead]

[BitcoinFX]

Bottlecaps is a great alt. coin and I also really like the fact that its a PoS coin.

I think I first referred to Bitcoins as 'Electronic Bottle Tops' on this forum way back when a small group of us played a game of Texas Hold'em via PokerTH for Bitcoins! Its amazing how ideas go full circle.  

However, I'm finding that the current 1.4 windows qt release has a few major problems (as I reported a few pages back) and its crashing for me when sending coins from an encrypted wallet.

A Linux build seems to be working properly and I've not found the time to try a new windows build yet. Hopefully mullick (and others?) are almost done with the new v1.4.1 build ? If there is another fork then we must look to spread out and increase the hash rate and continue from there.

Not looked at the math yet but how would 5% PoS with say a 10 day coin age pan out long term ? I'm considering a concept for a Fractional Reserve Proof-Of-Stake 'BottleBank' Mining Pool. Where miners would have the option to 'lock-in' a percentage of their mined coins, for a fixed duration, to both add to and take advantge of PoS payouts from a large % of reserve CAP held in pool wallets dedicated to continual PoS minting, also helping to secure the network. Yes, I'm against centalization, but its good to try some new experiments and it wouldn't really be an issue with several PoS type pools up and running.

Anyway, just looking to know that those who started this coin are still keen to keep it going. I'd look to factor in >1% to the Foundation.  

[Lauda]

Seems like another fork: http://www.bottlecapspool.com/ is on a different chain again ahead of everybody else

Fixed.

[ISAWHIM]

I'm considering a concept for a Fractional Reserve Proof-Of-Stake 'BottleBank' Mining Pool. Where miners would have the option to 'lock-in' a percentage of their mined coins, for a fixed duration, to both add to and take advantage of PoS payouts from a large % of reserve CAP held in pool wallets dedicated to continual PoS minting, also helping to secure the network. Yes, I'm against centralization, but its good to try some new experiments and it wouldn't really be an issue with several PoS type pools up and running.

If you are looking to create your own coin... (as I am)... You might want to take a minute to read my long-ass blurb about future coins, gen-3 coins.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=267251

[mullick]

The Original fork was created due to a ntework communication issue it seems. In 1.4 I added the necessary checkpoints and a few other minor adjustments.

In order to correct the communication issue I paid out of pocket to setup 2 fully connectable Dedicated bnodes to keep the network communicating. They are running an average of 40 connections each. I have also setup my own personal server for this task as well

In 1.4.1 I will be adding hardened checkpoints, DNS seeds, and IRC changes if nessecary.

The issues in the past few days have been isolated to 1 pool. www.bottlecaps.com It is mining its own separate chain with nobody else on the network.

When speaking to the pool operator this morning he was not running the nodes I had setup and he now is directly connected to them. This should prevent the issue in the future.

Besides this pool the network has stayed together very nicely. Orphan rate has dropped substantially. We are no longer seeing strings of multiple orphaned blocks at smaller pools

BitcoinFX

You have been very patient about the issue with your wallet. I did get a little time to attempt to recreate the issue and will be doing so  right now even more.

Ill try to compile a fresh client and get it to you soon to see if in fact it was a compiling error with the release

Thank you for your support and patience

[butjust41day]

Well things are obviously getting better. Thanks for the hard work and effort. Looking forward to the future of this coin.

[BitcoinFX]

BitcoinFX

You have been very patient about the issue with your wallet. I did get a little time to attempt to recreate the issue and will be doing so  right now even more.

Ill try to compile a fresh client and get it to you soon to see if in fact it was a compiling error with the release

Thank you for your support and patience

No worries. As long as its being looked at - definitely something odd with the v1.4 windows qt build.

I'll have a go with it myself in a few days maybe.

Cheers!

BottleCaps to the erm... 'BottleBank' Repository then. 

[BitcoinFX]

I'm considering a concept for a Fractional Reserve Proof-Of-Stake 'BottleBank' Mining Pool. Where miners would have the option to 'lock-in' a percentage of their mined coins, for a fixed duration, to both add to and take advantage of PoS payouts from a large % of reserve CAP held in pool wallets dedicated to continual PoS minting, also helping to secure the network. Yes, I'm against centralization, but its good to try some new experiments and it wouldn't really be an issue with several PoS type pools up and running.

If you are looking to create your own coin... (as I am)... You might want to take a minute to read my long-ass blurb about future coins, gen-3 coins.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=267251

Sure. I'll have a read of that sometime. I'm not looking to create another coin though.

I'm considering a mining pool that includes PoW and PoS rewards for the benefit of the miners, 'savers', the pool owner and also increases the security of the network and the pool node.

With a coins PoS >2% (5% planned implementation for CAPs) it is possible for a PoW pool to offer additional incentives and rewards. Pools often have a fixed fee or % donation / contribution. Why not add a simple PoW % savings option on mined coins for a % share PoS payout on existing reserves, much like banks do, with a user specified duration and the principal sum also being returned.

I have a theoretical way to maximize PoS (or at least to ensure the upper bound reward over time) on balances, which I must first test. We can perhaps increase the 'Frequency of Proof-of-Stake'. At worst it is beneficial to network and pools security / stability.

Basically a fairly large balance would be equally spread across multiple wallets as the pools 'Reserve Repositories' eligible for PoS minting already with 30 days coin age. The % of reservebalance= in the .conf would be changed after each PoS minting so that there are always more coins to be staked again and again within a 30 day period.

A fixed % of the PoS reward goes to the pools 'savers' as payouts from each wallet, with the rest increasing the wallets balance and therefore slightly increasing future PoS rewards. This Frequency of Proof-of-Stake will ensure a more stable avg. overtime against difficulty. Having many active reserve wallets also increases the pools overall chance at generating stake and/or maintaining this avg.

Note that this model works without the need to take deposits. In fact it is (optional) 'Deposit Money Creation' as described in 'Modern Money Mechanics' which is currently being improperly managed by banks in our failing world economies and by the likes of the federal reserve etc.

However, this actually works if the human factors such as trading, hedging, loans etc. are completely removed from the system and it could therefore work really well with PoS in crypto-currencies, which is essentially an automated fixed return.

I don't like centralization, but this could be very interesting for future development in crypto money. Coins will require additional development.

However, the creation of a Proof-of-Stake Fractional Reserve Depository and Repository 'BottleBank' is nonetheless very amusing!  

[ISAWHIM]

I am glad that this coin was able to get back on track so fast...

Now I just wish the POS coins would be more rewarding and less difficult to find/create...

Three days in to "available", and not one single POS block. Not sure what the deal was with the POS being 0 on that one guys find... You would think that at-least it would be the minimum value... 0% of 0 is 0... Hard to get 5% interest on 0, and 5% of 1 coin would have been 0.05 coins... 5% of one block of 10 coins would have been 0.5... Though it did say something about reward showing in the next block... I assume the next POS block, which seems like it might take months to find just one block! (But it says 0 staked coins, so I am still lost.)

Do I have to "not be mining" in order to "be minting"....

I realize that it was said, "you do not have to be mining to mint a POS block"... but was that actually translated into, "you CAN NOT be MINING to MINT a POS block"?

Because I really don't want to stop mining... but if not mining is what creates minted POS blocks... Then I will open up my wallet on a hundred computers and not mine on all of them... lol... That should give me 100 chances, right?

[chondrite]

I am glad that this coin was able to get back on track so fast...

Now I just wish the POS coins would be more rewarding and less difficult to find/create...

Three days in to "available", and not one single POS block. Not sure what the deal was with the POS being 0 on that one guys find... You would think that at-least it would be the minimum value... 0% of 0 is 0... Hard to get 5% interest on 0, and 5% of 1 coin would have been 0.05 coins... 5% of one block of 10 coins would have been 0.5... Though it did say something about reward showing in the next block... I assume the next POS block, which seems like it might take months to find just one block! (But it says 0 staked coins, so I am still lost.)

Do I have to "not be mining" in order to "be minting"....

I realize that it was said, "you do not have to be mining to mint a POS block"... but was that actually translated into, "you CAN NOT be MINING to MINT a POS block"?

Because I really don't want to stop mining... but if not mining is what creates minted POS blocks... Then I will open up my wallet on a hundred computers and not mine on all of them... lol... That should give me 100 chances, right?

As far as I am aware, any POS award under 1 will be rounded to 0.  POS must earn at least 1 coin to be awarded anything.  So if you POS 10 coins you'll be minting 0.5, but that will round down to 0.  If you did 100 you'll have 5.  Can anyone confirm/correct this?

[ISAWHIM]

Seems all are 10 reward blocks, split into 5 and 5...

Here is what I got so far... From the block-explorer... These are the POS blocks I found, diff 0.003 blocks.

None from 60432 to 58089 (Odd) Did it break?

58088, 10.1 (Last POS block I saw)
57977, 10
57780, 9007.448
57681, 10
57677, 10.01
57663, 10
57575, 329.171184
57573, 801.809569
57503, 10
57487, 58.450854
57414, 19.999
57399, 10
57366, 1.41346
57292, 10.01
57081, 37.569746
56760, 10
56734, 10.01
56706, 10.01
56628, 10
56589, 10
56579, 10
56528, 10.151756
56527, 114.495749
55447, 10
55375, 10.01
55286, 10
55173, 10
55042, 10
55025, 12.820391
54760, 10
54596, 10
54467, 10
54411, 182.72393
54115, 19.999
54041, 110.859239
53798, 10
53780, 10
53666, 10
53658, 10
53517, 3541.617183
53434, 10
53395, 10
53036, 10
53018, 10
53002, 26.578504
52727, 10
52721, 23.558961
52685, 10
52533, 17.217816
52490, 10
52401, 10
52296, 10
52191, 10
51866, 24.088814
51746, 10

MISSING (Stopped, eyes tired)

46065, 143.061964
45873, 19.398142
45455, 9.999
45252, 3.666

Might have been more below...

NOTE: Amounts in blocks are for the actual "block transaction", not the reward...

[ISAWHIM]

Updated the list...

POS seems broken... perhaps the last running POS wallet that was working, was the one on that fork... After they got back on the correct chain, that made 100% of the broken code for POS now running? (It seems)

After that block 58088, there have been no more POS blocks. Before that, there was about 10 blocks per 1000 blocks. (Roughly 1% were being produced 1:100)... Now none are being produced. The only connection I see, is that one old program which was still running, on the fork, which is now gone. Leaving us, with all the updated and possibly broken POS code, still running.

Unless, the diff for POS has changed to match normal block diffs... then I would have to manually search every block, one by one, to find the POS blocks. (In previous searches, all POS blocks have shown as diff-0.003)

If it is broken... could it be that the calculation, for some reason, thinks the "update date", is 0-days, and will not start working again until 30 days from the update, before it begins producing POS blocks?

That is the only "glitch" I can think of, which would result in a complete stopping of POS blocks, unless POS was just disabled after that date... or, the "variable" used had a max value of 65536, which is close to 58088... close enough that a calculation for "next after 58088..." in a formula that multiplies that by something, might fail... resulting in something like a rolled-over value of 232 for a next POS, which should have been (58088 + 232 = 58320) after the formula summed-up, but resulted in just 232, which was already done, and thus, would fail block-height by nonce... or something like that.

Has POS been disabled until 1.4.1?

I also found it odd that the block-reward for these two blocks was below 10... they were POS blocks...
45455, 9.999
45252, 3.666

The totals should have been at-least 10... right?

[kslavik]

Updated the list...

POS seems broken... perhaps the last running POS wallet that was working, was the one on that fork... After they got back on the correct chain, that made 100% of the broken code for POS now running? (It seems)

After that block 58088, there have been no more POS blocks. Before that, there was about 10 blocks per 1000 blocks. (Roughly 1% were being produced 1:100)... Now none are being produced. The only connection I see, is that one old program which was still running, on the fork, which is now gone. Leaving us, with all the updated and possibly broken POS code, still running.

Unless, the diff for POS has changed to match normal block diffs... then I would have to manually search every block, one by one, to find the POS blocks. (In previous searches, all POS blocks have shown as diff-0.003)

If it is broken... could it be that the calculation, for some reason, thinks the "update date", is 0-days, and will not start working again until 30 days from the update, before it begins producing POS blocks?

That is the only "glitch" I can think of, which would result in a complete stopping of POS blocks, unless POS was just disabled after that date... or, the "variable" used had a max value of 65536, which is close to 58088... close enough that a calculation for "next after 58088..." in a formula that multiplies that by something, might fail... resulting in something like a rolled-over value of 232 for a next POS, which should have been (58088 + 232 = 58320) after the formula summed-up, but resulted in just 232, which was already done, and thus, would fail block-height by nonce... or something like that.

Has POS been disabled until 1.4.1?

I also found it odd that the block-reward for these two blocks was below 10... they were POS blocks...
45455, 9.999
45252, 3.666

The totals should have been at-least 10... right?

block 45252 is a normal block with difficulty of 3.666 and reward of 10:
http://bot.webboise.com:2760/block/000000000ee711f81bf5f70cc7b93003f18bd78da89a17f9146e3e33568eae0e

block 45455 is a POS block with 2 transactions attached to it with total value of 9.999
http://bot.webboise.com:2760/block/59fdf92f0bc28a6650c4cc9e8a1fe530f71b06701cf44bb764d19ee8ca950dad

[ISAWHIM]

45251 oops... lol.. told you my eyes were getting tired...

But the other one, with 9.999 should still have been 10... is everyone sending 10-coin transactions? Oh, I get it... there was only 9.999 available for stake, because 0.001 was lost as a fee from that block... That was the amount which got staked 9.999 but resulted in 0 gain... (The 0.001 was in another person's possession.)

Like the others I see 10.01 were obviously 20 coins available for stake, so they gained 0.01 from the 20 staked coins, thus 10 = 10.01 after the reward. (10 for the block + 0.01 for the stake-reward)

Any word as to why the staked coins POS stopped after block 58088?