Bottlecaps 2.1 UPDATE REQUIRED - HARDFORK JULY 4 2014 to 200% Annual PoS

[John Eden]

re-downloaded (again) the blockchain and seems fine now

Fixed

Bad node. Only epools affected. I funded all lost coins from this

epools and solo-miners... (I lost about 12 coins after 0:00:00, and any potential coins for the past 5 hours from 1:00:00 to 5:00:00, when the coin-network decided to sever my wallet and not let it connect to any nodes.)

Not complaining, but just saying that epool was NOT the ONLY one affected.

Sorry was a quick response. Edited.

[ISAWHIM]

Transaction fees are destroyed to counteract the small inflation caused by PoS

So, we should all just stop paying fees then? Since they don't actually go anywhere...

Hope that changes in the future... If that is the case, then make them off-set the "coins from nothing"... EG, lowering the "created coins", but not altering the diff in any way... if there were 2 coins in fees, then only 8 coins are generated for that block, as the 2 from fees replaces them. Thus, each 10 coins extends the generation of life of the blocks by one block, in the future. EG, 5 years + 3000 new blocks, if 30000 coins were "paid" by tx fees in the past. Unlike destroying them... that will eventually lower the "total created coins", and there will eventually be 0 coins to trade in the future...

However, saying you "generated 100,000 less coins than expected", as they were supplimented by transaction fees... is a "gain in value"...

Saying you threw away 100,000 of the economy, thus, we are now 100,000 short of the "total coins in circulation", is a poor design...

Change it now, before it continues...

Total coins created 1,000,000
Coins left 900,000 (100,000 thrown away in transaction fees)
coins left 700,000 (200,000 thrown away in transaction fees)
coins left 400,000 (300,000 thrown away in transaction fees)
...
end of life... only 10 coins left... nothing to POS with...

If we all set fees to 0... you offset nothing...
If we all set fees to something... there is no direct reward to anyone...

Where are the numbers for "tx fees thrown away"?

Now, if POS only "matched" a percentage of tx fees... THAT would be understandable, more than "coins from nothing". EG, moving tx fees to block 0 (a system block), and withdrawing a portion of fees to pay POS rewards. The more fees, the more the POS rewards, the less "coins from nothing". Thus, a reason to invest/hold coins for POS.

Unless fees are a "fixed rate", and "can not be altered", and "must be included to confirm a valid tx"... then disposal of something-or-nothing is like a stale-gesture... because it can be set to "something-or-nothing".

Just my economic opinion... I am slightly less comfortable mining these coins now... (BTW, pools usually live off tx fees, to offset lack of donations.)

[ISAWHIM]

In short, I am saying this...

You said, "tx fees offset POS rewards"...

You only get POS if you are NOT making tx's... (holding), thus... it will NEVER offset POS earnings, just decay the "total coins left from block generation", only IF they are being traded/moved/used/txs/not-POSed...

For the record, I am holding over 18,000 coins for POS... More as each day passes... but have yet to see any POS rewards, but tons of coins destroyed in fees. EG, they are being destroyed faster then any POS rewards are being rewarded, thus, total coins will eventually be 0...

BTW, this is "critical information" we need to "judge the value of a coin"... if we don't know how many coins were destroyed, how many are stake-rewarded, and how many are mined... we can not honestly value our income. At the moment, we know how many were created...

EDIT: We can sort-of see the results...
Block-height: 65050 should be 650,500 coins (Actually incorrect, because POS shows as a block, need to know how many POS blocks to remove from the block-height, for correct calculation.)
Total-coins: 648,896.214629

(If POS blocks were NOT listed as a block... or knowing the POS blocks to remove...)
Thus... 650,500 - 648,896.214629 = 1,603.785371 coins short of expected... (Lost to tx-fees, not gained by POS)

EG...
- ? ? ? ? lost to tx-fees (thrown away)
plus
+ ? ? ? ? paid to POS (created from nothing II)
equals
- 1,603.785371 (Balance of thrown-away and created-from-nothing-II-POS rewards)

650,500 - 1,603.785371 = 648,896.214629 (Total coins left to trade in txs)
(Great for adding value, as there are "less than expected" for circulation... but... that will eventually become 0 left for txs in the future, unless we all never use them. That is counter-productive and turns value in to 0 also. The point of currency is to use it.)

[BitcoinFX]

mullick has kindly provided me with a download link to a fresh windows compile for BottleCaps-qt.exe which has solved the 'crash' issues that I reported earlier in this thread with v1.4 when using encrypted wallets.

I'm sure that BottleCaps will be fully back on track soon and that issues with PoS / transaction fees should also be sorted out in the future releases.

[John Eden]

In short, I am saying this...

You said, "tx fees offset POS rewards"...

You only get POS if you are NOT making tx's... (holding), thus... it will NEVER offset POS earnings, just decay the "total coins left from block generation", only IF they are being traded/moved/used/txs/not-POSed...

For the record, I am holding over 18,000 coins for POS... More as each day passes... but have yet to see any POS rewards, but tons of coins destroyed in fees. EG, they are being destroyed faster then any POS rewards are being rewarded, thus, total coins will eventually be 0...

BTW, this is "critical information" we need to "judge the value of a coin"... if we don't know how many coins were destroyed, how many are stake-rewarded, and how many are mined... we can not honestly value our income. At the moment, we know how many were created...

EDIT: We can sort-of see the results...
Block-height: 65050 should be 650,500 coins
Total-coins: 648,896.214629

Thus... 650,500 - 648,896.214629 = 1,603.785371 coins short of expected... (Lost to tx-fees, not gained by POS)

EG...
- ? ? ? ? lost to tx-fees (thrown away)
plus
+ ? ? ? ? paid to POS (created from nothing II)
equals
- 1,603.785371 (Balance of thrown-away and created-from-nothing-II-POS rewards)

650,500 - 1,603.785371 = 648,896.214629 (Total coins left to trade in txs)
(Great for adding value, as there are "less than expected" for circulation... but... that will eventually become 0 left for txs in the future, unless we all never use them. That is counter-productive and turns value in to 0 also. The point of currency is to use it.)

TX fee destruction goes back to PPC

"Meanwhile, PPCoin's transaction fees are destroyed to counterbalance these inflationary forces" - PPC FAQ

https://github.com/ppcoin/ppcoin/wiki/FAQ

The reason little PoS is being minted is due to the flawed algorithm from PPC. Its not technically flawed as it works fine for PPC with a high block reward and millions of coins in circulation. But when dealing with small amounts rewards get rounded to 0 without 377 days of coinage

This algo will be taken out of the equation when we move to a fixed 5% ROI for PoS minting

To put it in perspective. The tx fee for caps is .001

Lets say the average transaction is the size of 1 block or 10 coins

If those 10 coins get staked they will earn a reward of .5 Caps equivalent to 5000 transaction fees

[ISAWHIM]

TX fee destruction goes back to PPC

"Meanwhile, PPCoin's transaction fees are destroyed to counterbalance these inflationary forces" - PPC FAQ

https://github.com/ppcoin/ppcoin/wiki/FAQ

I understand the concept... but you offer no way to track this... You don't even have the answers, so how can you balance the unknown? What you keep pointing to is a "theory", a rather vague one, at best... With no actual numbers that we, "the traders/minters", NEED to "value" the coin.

Eg, sounds like you just don't actually know... and you just "hope" it all works-out in the end. Because, after-all, it is just a theory.

How many coins are destroyed in tx-fees? (No info, find it yourself.)
How many coins have been created "from nothing" for POS? (No info, find it yourself.)
How many coins are left, from the "expected" mined coins? (No info, find it yourself.)
How "counter balanced", is this system? (No idea, I just punched in numbers and hope they work. I am not even sure enough to come up with the slightest estimation... Like I said, I guessed.)

I know this all sounds harsh... But no-one is giving any clear answers...

You get 5%... 5% of what? Your POS blocks... and what CHANCE does a block have to be POS? No clue... So 5% of some mystery lotto-chance. That mystery reward replaces the constantly decaying coins that we have no idea how many are actually destroyed, and we hope they "counter-balance", but we actually have no idea if it is "balanced", just that one disappears and one appears.

You said counter-balance... Yet you have nothing that shows "balance". No records of POS blocks, POS rewards, Tx-fee destroyed coins... and thus, can not "balance" what you "don't know".

So... Other than HOPE of a theory... what ensures "balance". As I showed... there is no balance, just a constant decaying "coins left to trade/stake". At this rate, it is about 425 per month or 5100 a year, at these LOW trade volumes... more when we trade more. SO after mining results in 0 coins... the total coins in circulation will continue to reduce to 0... unless none of us are trading/spending/using the coins.

If the future is 0, and the reward for holding POS is not actually balanced to the losses... then this coin has no future. You stated that POS was NOT intended as a form of "income"... thus, it is safe to assume it will never be "balanced" to the losses from tx-fees. Unless we all stop paying tx-fees...

Since tx-fees are not mandatory, then you can NOT say, "tx-fees balance anything".

[ISAWHIM]

I am saying this as constructive criticism... not to offend.

I believe these things are an oversight, that should be addressed ASAP, for the coins long-term stay. This is one of my favorite coins that I am dedicating all of my miners towards, and all of my deepest thoughts. I would provide more, but the above issues, which do not have any clarity, limit any real participation beyond earning for trading. (Not investment and spending.)

{All miners not dedicated to this coin YET... as I have others I NEED. This one I WANT.}

[John Eden]

TX fee destruction goes back to PPC

"Meanwhile, PPCoin's transaction fees are destroyed to counterbalance these inflationary forces" - PPC FAQ

https://github.com/ppcoin/ppcoin/wiki/FAQ

I understand the concept... but you offer no way to track this... You don't even have the answers, so how can you balance the unknown? What you keep pointing to is a "theory", a rather vague one, at best... With no actual numbers that we, "the traders/minters", NEED to "value" the coin.

Eg, sounds like you just don't actually know... and you just "hope" it all works-out in the end. Because, after-all, it is just a theory.

How many coins are destroyed in tx-fees? (No info, find it yourself.)
How many coins have been created "from nothing" for POS? (No info, find it yourself.)
How many coins are left, from the "expected" mined coins? (No info, find it yourself.)
How "counter balanced", is this system? (No idea, I just punched in numbers and hope they work. I am not even sure enough to come up with the slightest estimation... Like I said, I guessed.)

I know this all sounds harsh... But no-one is giving any clear answers...

You get 5%... 5% of what? Your POS blocks... and what CHANCE does a block have to be POS? No clue... So 5% of some mystery lotto-chance. That mystery reward replaces the constantly decaying coins that we have no idea how many are actually destroyed, and we hope they "counter-balance", but we actually have no idea if it is "balanced", just that one disappears and one appears.

You said counter-balance... Yet you have nothing that shows "balance". No records of POS blocks, POS rewards, Tx-fee destroyed coins... and thus, can not "balance" what you "don't know".

So... Other than HOPE of a theory... what ensures "balance". As I showed... there is no balance, just a constant decaying "coins left to trade/stake". At this rate, it is about 425 per month or 5100 a year. SO after mining results in 0 coins... the total coins in circulation will continue to reduce to 0... unless none of us are trading/spending/using the coins.

If the future is 0, and the reward for holding POS is not actually balanced to the losses... then this coin has no future. You stated that POS was NOT intended as a form of "income"... thus, it is safe to assume it will never be "balanced" to the losses from tx-fees. Unless we all stop paying tx-fees...

Since tx-fees are not mandatory, then you can NOT say, "tx-fees balance anything".

I get your concern here. I will do my best to explain how the systems are thought out.

PPC is Sunny Kings PoS implementation. All PoS currency's out there now are based on his work.

NVC is a PPC fork which uses scrypt.

Caps is a NVC fork with a different block reward and block subsidy algorithm. As well as a .25 starting difficulty

Sunny kings work is an extremely complex and well thought out system. I believe this is where the problem is. So few people truly understand PoS completely. And even those people have a hard time explaining it. Its like explaining bitcoin to an outsider for the first time.

But once you really understand I believe you will see how intricate and well thought out it is.

http://www.cryptometer.org/ppcoin_104_week_charts.html

There is a great site that has a wonderful set of graphs. One could just as easily be made for tx fee destruction. We will look at PPC as it has the longest history

You can see in the minted currency graph that PoS generation rate is relatively stable. Almost as stable as POW generation.

With the daily minted currency through PoS It would require 1 Million transactions per day for POS generation to be less than TX Fee Destruction

Adjustments will always be made to ensure a situation that you are concerned about will be handled if it arises

As for as the 5% PoS reward


When you mint a PoS block. It will be for a set number of coins. Those coins will be moved to the "staked" column and be unavailable until the block matures. The Block will have a total value = to 5% of the "staked " coins

The amount of coins to get staked is pretty complex. It transaction based as well. I will think of a better way to explain it but. for now

The network is always searching for stake that it likes. When it finds it, It will grab some stake. Try to add a few more to that. Then form the block around these coins. or "stake" them

Just a few more points about the thought put into of PPC. PPC's subsidy algorithm is brilliant In my opinion. It is based on Moore's law. As pc power increases the block reward decrease

We chose not to use this in caps to get more stable generation but none the less it is well thought out.

There is also a PoS difficulty which keeps PoS generation as a stable level


We appreciate your Support and criticism. We can assure you these systems are extremely well thought out. Not just by us but Mainly by the great minds of crypto currency

[butjust41day]

Since version 1.4 I've been unable to successfully solo mine. All my rigs connect and start hashing; but, when they find a block they try to pass it to the wallet and then cache the submission while waiting for the wallet to respond. A block is then found by the network and my block expires. I successfully solo mined on all other versions. Just wondering if anyone else has had similar problems.

I'm using windows 7

[ISAWHIM]

The issue I have, related to numbers/value... is...

You keep displaying a "similar system", saying there are changes to THAT system, but you keep showing us the "similar system" information.

There is no charts, or even block-info segregation, indicating the POS blocks, which should be listed separate from the POW blocks. Additionally, the "total coins", is a total of minted and POS-rewards and destroyed coins, with no separation, or possibility to even estimate. (Even if we knew most of the above information.)

The "transaction fees", which are not a requirement... are being said to "balance" the POS rewards... Which is just untrue. There is no code, or data to back-up that statement. The only statement which was made clear, was that POS reward is not actually rewarding, as it was not intended to be a form of "income" or "actual gain".

However... if the only POS reward that was generated, came from a "fixed transfer fee", that WOULD be a "balance". EG, 1000 coins destroyed = 1000 coins rewarded to POS

Since POS is essentially useless as income, there is no incentive to "save coins for POS". Thus, useless bloat to the system at the moment. No security is offered by making these coins unavailable to everyone, including an attacker, who has no interest in them in the first place. They only care about the "rewarding blocks"... For it to be security, POW should be nearly zero, and POS should be high.

Since fees simply get destroyed, there is no reason in hell that anyone would/should ever pay fees. That offers no security, or incentive to pay. Normally incentive is to get a faster transaction. However, if the pools, or solo-miners do NOT get that reward, why would that transaction ever be faster? We are not earning anything by doing that transaction over any other transaction, which still ends-up being processed anyways... Thus, fees are actually just more bloat, since they don't do anything.

That could easily be changed, even now... (at a system-level), since all that information is historically still recorded in the chain. But, moving forward like it is... the result will still be the same. The more transactions, the more coins that "disappear", from the "total" and the less that are "staked". The less transactions, the more coins that are "staked", and the more the total will increase. Without any actual consideration for balance, other than "hope".

P.S. For those who wish to not participate in the destruction of coins, via fees that have no impact on rewards to those processing your transactions... Use the commands below to start your wallets...

-mintxrelayfee=0.00000000
-mintxfee=0.00000000

or 0.00000001 if the program gives you issues with "free transactions"

[ISAWHIM]

Since version 1.4 I've been unable to successfully solo mine..

Is your wallet is unlocked... and was it unlocked BEFORE you started your miners?

If you begin mining to a locked wallet, and then later unlock it... your miners are still mining on the locked wallet address, when they made that first connection.

Correct way to setup mining on a locked wallet...
1: Shut down your miners... all of them.
2: Load your wallet
3: Unlock your wallet
4: Then... start your miners

If you did this... you did it wrong...
1: Start miners
2: Load wallet (starts locked)
3: {miners begin mining on locked wallet}
4: Unlock wallet {Miners still mining on locked wallet ID's, miners don't know you NOW unlocked it.}

[butjust41day]

I thought the unlocked wallet was only required for POS minting.

My wallet is locked. Your saying it must also be unlocked for POW mining (also point 3 indicates they can mine on a locked wallet)? That could be it because I had decided not to unlock the wallet until the 5 percent POS kicks in after finding a POS block that had zero coins.

I'll try that; but, it seems a shame to waste coin age and get no value.

[ISAWHIM]

I thought the unlocked wallet was only required for POS minting.

My wallet is locked. Your saying it must also be unlocked for POW mining? That could be it because I had decided not to unlock the wallet until the 5 percent POS kicks in after finding a POS block that had zero coins.

I'll try that; but, it seems a shame to waste coin age and get no value.

The wallet has to be unlocked to collect minted POS rewards or mine POW... It does not have to be unlocked or open for your coins to "age" which "makes them available for POS"... Though, being available and actually being selected for use, are not the same thing. A coin can "be available" for eternity, and never actually be used for a POS block. Has been almost a month with blocks/coins ready for POS, and over 1000 blocks found by me, and no POS or POS reward. (Thus, a lotto.)

Apparently POS is like having a shop with 1000's of items.. Just because you have a bunch of items for sale, only one will sell a day/week/month...

Not sure why they mention "reserving coins from stake", makes it sound like all coins that "are ready", will be used. That is far from the truth. I have thousands "ready for stake", and 0 actually staked coins, and 0 POS blocks. That is why I thought it was broken. It was made to sound like every coins that was available was going to instantly turn into staked coins. Now I realize it is like a lotto selection for those, and also for rewards of those lotto-selected coins.

Seems like 1:1,000,000 of your (10 coin blocks) will turn into POS, than, of that lotto-selection... if you hit the lotto again, you will get 5% on your next 1:1,000,000 selected POS block. (2 blocks of 10 will result in 0.01 coins created... 20 staked.)

[butjust41day]

I thought the unlocked wallet was only required for POS minting.

My wallet is locked. Your saying it must also be unlocked for POW mining? That could be it because I had decided not to unlock the wallet until the 5 percent POS kicks in after finding a POS block that had zero coins.

I'll try that; but, it seems a shame to waste coin age and get no value.

The wallet has to be unlocked to collect minted POS rewards or mine POW... It does not have to be unlocked or open for your coins to "age" which "makes them available for POS"... Though, being available and actually being selected for use, are not the same thing. A coin can "be available" for eternity, and never actually be used for a POS block.

Thank you......I guess I just had it unlocked always before version 1.4 and then stopped unlocking it at 1.4 and the announcement of 5% percent. Usually I am a better problem solver  . Thank you again


Added: I think finding the first POS block gave me the misleading idea that it was easy given the difficulty level. I though all my coin age was going to be destroyed for zero return. That block was based on a stake of only 10 coins.

[ISAWHIM]

Also, since the question seems to be skirted by everyone...

Do I have to "stop mining POW" to "start minting POS"... (Eg, stop using cgminer.)

I realize that you don't have to "mine POS", it just happens when your wallet is open... However, it seems like I may not be getting any POS minted, because my wallet is POW mining.

(Is that why there is no mining ability in the wallet, because the CPU is used to MINT POS, or is someone-else doing the MINTing for us? Something is creating the block with our unlocked credentials.)

If it is CPU mining creating the POS, then I will open another wallet with these credentials, or 100, just for that.

[butjust41day]

Also, since the question seems to be skirted by everyone...

Do I have to "stop mining POW" to "start minting POS"... (Eg, stop using cgminer.)

I realize that you don't have to "mine POS", it just happens when your wallet is open... However, it seems like I may not be getting any POS minted, because my wallet is POW mining.

(Is that why there is no mining ability in the wallet, because the CPU is used to MINT POS, or is someone-else doing the MINTing for us? Something is creating the block with our unlocked credentials.)

If it is CPU mining creating the POS, then I will open another wallet with these credentials, or 100, just for that.

When I found that POS block I was not mining. It would be interesting to hear from others who have found POS blocks and if they were mining solo when found. I'll start mining some CAPS again and watch for POS block.

[butjust41day]

Okay up and running already mined my first block....I'll watch for any POS blocks as well and let you know if I find any while mining.

ISAWHIM was completely right about the wallet needing to be unlocked for mining and not just minting.

[John Eden]

The issue I have, related to numbers/value... is...

You keep displaying a "similar system", saying there are changes to THAT system, but you keep showing us the "similar system" information.

There is no charts, or even block-info segregation, indicating the POS blocks, which should be listed separate from the POW blocks. Additionally, the "total coins", is a total of minted and POS-rewards and destroyed coins, with no separation, or possibility to even estimate. (Even if we knew most of the above information.)

The "transaction fees", which are not a requirement... are being said to "balance" the POS rewards... Which is just untrue. There is no code, or data to back-up that statement. The only statement which was made clear, was that POS reward is not actually rewarding, as it was not intended to be a form of "income" or "actual gain".

However... if the only POS reward that was generated, came from a "fixed transfer fee", that WOULD be a "balance". EG, 1000 coins destroyed = 1000 coins rewarded to POS

Since POS is essentially useless as income, there is no incentive to "save coins for POS". Thus, useless bloat to the system at the moment. No security is offered by making these coins unavailable to everyone, including an attacker, who has no interest in them in the first place. They only care about the "rewarding blocks"... For it to be security, POW should be nearly zero, and POS should be high.

Since fees simply get destroyed, there is no reason in hell that anyone would/should ever pay fees. That offers no security, or incentive to pay. Normally incentive is to get a faster transaction. However, if the pools, or solo-miners do NOT get that reward, why would that transaction ever be faster? We are not earning anything by doing that transaction over any other transaction, which still ends-up being processed anyways... Thus, fees are actually just more bloat, since they don't do anything.

That could easily be changed, even now... (at a system-level), since all that information is historically still recorded in the chain. But, moving forward like it is... the result will still be the same. The more transactions, the more coins that "disappear", from the "total" and the less that are "staked". The less transactions, the more coins that are "staked", and the more the total will increase. Without any actual consideration for balance, other than "hope".

P.S. For those who wish to not participate in the destruction of coins, via fees that have no impact on rewards to those processing your transactions... Use the commands below to start your wallets...

-mintxrelayfee=0.00000000
-mintxfee=0.00000000

or 0.00000001 if the program gives you issues with "free transactions"

I get your points. Let me try to explain more.

The reason the fees are in place is to prevent transaction spam attacks. Of which Litecoin was a victim too. If there was no tx fee a malicious individual could send countless thousands of small transactions in a short period of time and bring transactions to a crawl. They could make it so there is essentially a waiting list for transactions to get into a block. Therefore a tx fee is needed to make this sort of attack costly

Tx fee destruction is not meant to equal or negate inflation caused by PoS

Inflation by PoS is one of the biggest concerns investors have. TX fee destruction is only meant to slightly decrease total inflation on a yearly basis. Caps is by no means the first to do so. The system works quite well for PPC, NVC, BTB, BTG, YAC, YAB, CGB, and all other hybrid PoW/PoS currencys

It is trully a fine balance between too little reward and too much.

Too high of a reward will lead to rampant hoarding and larger inflation caused by PoS

Too low of a reward and no miners will have any incentive to offer up their coins. The reason for the PoS reward is to give users that would already be holding coins incentive to open up their wallet and use the currency as a network defense. They will be slightly rewarded for this but not too much where to where they will never spend the coins.

I see nothing in the code that would prevent PoS minting while also PoW mining but i am not 100% posotive on this. Will look over it once again

Also the graphs I pointed out earlier Do show a separation between Pos generation and Pow generation

Currently due to the algorithm which determined reward the total amount of coins generated from PoS minting is 5.8 caps Barley visible on the graph. This counteracts 5800 transactions with fee destruction. More and more stake blocks are being generated each day. Currently the ROI is 2% With the move to 5% many more people will open their wallets and starting minting blocks.

I hope this clears some things up let me know if you have any more concerns


 

[John Eden]

Okay up and running already mined my first block....I'll watch for any POS blocks as well and let you know if I find any while mining.

ISAWHIM was completely right about the wallet needing to be unlocked for mining and not just minting.

Yes he is 100% accurate there

The wallet needs to be unlocked before your miners start their work

[butjust41day]

Okay up and running already mined my first block....I'll watch for any POS blocks as well and let you know if I find any while mining.

ISAWHIM was completely right about the wallet needing to be unlocked for mining and not just minting.

Yes he is 100% accurate there

The wallet needs to be unlocked before your miners start their work

Interestingly my miners did work...they were just unable to pass the found blocks to the wallet, cache them for latter submission and then they would expire when a new block was found on the network.