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Author Topic: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game  (Read 434280 times)
Deprived
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July 16, 2013, 03:53:55 AM
 #761


It isn't simply a dcase of "just" doing it.  Some people will have invested/divested whilst specific bets happened.  So the exact state for every bet would have to be worked out and the losses from that bet applied to those invested when it occurred.  You can't, for example, take away funds from someone who had divested before the bets then invested again afterwards.

And, strange as it may seem, a roll-back, could in theory also INCREASE some balances - if they happened to only be invested on rolls that he lost.

It isn't just a case of applying a 1300 BTC 'loss' now.

Having made an announcement of what was happening I don't see how he can change his mind now anyway - and discussing it just encourages FUD with potentially investors trying to withdraw to avoid any claw-back (and new investors wary that they may get penalised for somethng that occurred before they even deposited).  Had the error been noticed promptly then I agree a roll-back would have been the best way to go - with the losses to investors then recouped by reduced commission until it was paid off.

But he made his call on how to handle it - so we should just move on from there.

So it's ok that dooglus loses 1300 btc private capital to investors because rolling back is 'complex' and 'he made the call'.

I strongly disagree.

I think you're underestimating him.

Fair resolution would have been immediate roll-back of all bets with the stolen money then dooglus loses it out of his future commission.

He expedited that process - judging, correctly in my view, that settling it up front rather than having to take the site down (and lock up people's funds) whilst he coded, executed, checked and double-checked a roll-back was the best thing to do.  Future investor confidence is worth more than saving some BTC short-term.  If you fuck up, you admit it, cover it and move on.  He's done the first two - yet strangely some people don't want to move on.
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RationalSpeculator
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July 16, 2013, 04:32:23 AM
 #762

I think you're underestimating him.

Fair resolution would have been immediate roll-back of all bets with the stolen money then dooglus loses it out of his future commission.

He expedited that process - judging, correctly in my view, that settling it up front rather than having to take the site down (and lock up people's funds) whilst he coded, executed, checked and double-checked a roll-back was the best thing to do.  Future investor confidence is worth more than saving some BTC short-term.  If you fuck up, you admit it, cover it and move on.  He's done the first two - yet strangely some people don't want to move on.

That's pure speculation on your part. Dooglus might strongly prefer to roll back instead of losing some 1300 btc that he likely worked years for! Whether investor confidence would be lost with a roll back I seriously doubt. It might well be that Dooglus treating himself so poorly may be much more of a problem to the wise investor.

If someone cannot take care of his own interests, how the hell can he take care of mine?
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July 16, 2013, 04:38:36 AM
 #763

If Doog would charge investors for his own mistake, they would flee. We've already seen 12k divested because some investors lost confidence in having their money there. For Doog is best to have a lot of investors money and good reputation. Some investors here in this thread just propose the contrary for their own benefit to have a bigger share of the bankroll.
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July 16, 2013, 04:46:22 AM
 #764

If Doog would charge investors for his own mistake, they would flee. We've already seen 12k divested because some investors lost confidence in having their money there. For Doog is best to have a lot of investors money and good reputation. Some investors here in this thread just propose the contrary for their own benefit to have a bigger share of the bankroll.

Doog is not charging investors for his own mistake if he rolls back. By rolling back he is simply not giving an unearned benefit to investors for the mistake he made.

Some investors in this thread just propose he takes a hard personal unjust hit for their own short term gains.  Angry
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July 16, 2013, 04:48:58 AM
 #765

Checklist (just in case.) for manual withdraw method:

1. manually debit account balance. make sure it is zero. Freeze account if needed.
2. send coins from cold wallet to hot wallet or from cold wallet directly to user.

Important. Steps are in order.

Well, this is for next time.

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July 16, 2013, 04:51:34 AM
 #766

A rollback is not going to happen. It isn't about who's mistake it is, it is about keeping promises. Dooglus promised he will cover it. To rollback it now after making that promise would be scamming, regardless of who's fault it was.

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July 16, 2013, 05:07:24 AM
 #767

A rollback is not going to happen. It isn't about who's mistake it is, it is about keeping promises. Dooglus promised he will cover it. To rollback it now after making that promise would be scamming, regardless of who's fault it was.

I did not see dooglus promise anything. I saw him saying he would cover it* after which many disagreed with that course of action. He is free to think it over and change his mind.

*Note that he had nothing to cover. There was no loss for investors. He made a mistake that resulted in 1300 btc being transferred to the investors unjustly, money that he already payed out. The only ones that need to cover here are the investors, by returning the unjust earnings to dooglus. However since he is the administrator he simply needs to roll back. And indeed take ownership for the mistake, apologize to the investors and improve procedures.
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July 16, 2013, 05:11:05 AM
 #768

Doog opted to take ownership of his own mistake and do the honorable thing.  Yes, technically he could have claimed it as an operating loss and charged the investors for the mistake, however IMO that would have damaged the reputation of both JD and Doog beyond repair.  

In the BTC world, investing is all about trust.  I think most of us agree that the long term value of JD is far greater than the 1300 lost to a mistake.  

As an investor I am concerned to see this type of mistake by the operator, but also reassured by the actions taken.  Personally I feel for Doog and will donate all investment profits for the next few months.  I see great potential in JD, and I hope Doog recovers from this temporary setback.
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July 16, 2013, 05:33:27 AM
 #769

If Doog would charge investors for his own mistake, they would flee. We've already seen 12k divested because some investors lost confidence in having their money there. For Doog is best to have a lot of investors money and good reputation. Some investors here in this thread just propose the contrary for their own benefit to have a bigger share of the bankroll.

Doog is not charging investors for his own mistake if he rolls back. By rolling back he is simply not giving an unearned benefit to investors for the mistake he made.

Not quite that simple - or do you believe dooglus should and would have wiped out any winnings (and loss to investors) if the extra cash gambled had generated a profit?  The whale would no doubt claim he was going to deposit anyway (and maybe even have sent it once he was up to give credibility to the claim) - as we've seen he's a lying sack of shit anyway.

If you're CERTAIN dooglus would have clawed back winnings then a roll back should happen.  But if you think investors took on the risk had he won then rather obviously they don't get the down-side when he loses.

Unfortunately the ideal solution - that the whale refunds the losses he incurred by gambling  - isn't going to happen and he's going to stick with his bullshit story.
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July 16, 2013, 07:15:18 AM
 #770

Hang in there Doog. You will be rewarded in the long run.
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July 16, 2013, 07:27:14 AM
 #771

I agree Coinbomb, the solution is not for good samaritans to return funds and disadvantage themselves to those who keep them.  Just roll it back, they coins were never going to be able to be withdrawn anyway.

I've taken the day away from the computer to think about this, and you're right.

Those coins bet by celeste weren't coins.  The coins had already been withdrawn.  The bets weren't really, and so I am going to roll them back.  If he had won, I wouldn't have let him withdraw his winnings either.

Nothing has been lost.  The fake coins have simply moved from celeste's account into investor's accounts, and so I will move them back, and then debit celeste's account.  It's a messy operation, since there were several invest/divests during the fraudulent play, but I will work out exactly how much he caused each investor to gain or lose, and reverse it.

This site is down while I do that.  It should be back soon.

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July 16, 2013, 07:39:28 AM
 #772

2013-07-15T14:41:03.288Z (1) <dooglus> last night 'celeste' asked me to cash him out 1300 BTC
2013-07-15T14:41:13.878Z (9006) <BigBitz> hey doog.
2013-07-15T14:41:16.915Z (2619) <Aahzmundus> did... you mess up a raw transaction....
2013-07-15T14:41:19.804Z (1) <dooglus> I panicked, shut the site down, reduced max bet, checked stats
2013-07-15T14:41:31.645Z (1) <dooglus> it all looked ok, so I put it back up and sent him 1300 BTC
2013-07-15T14:41:37.405Z (1) <dooglus> but didn't debit his account the 1300
2013-07-15T14:41:42.645Z (1) <dooglus> so the 1300 he lost last night was mine


2013-07-15T14:42:35.167Z (1) <dooglus> well, it's 1300 that was in his account that I should have subtracted when cashing him out
2013-07-15T14:42:42.443Z (1) <dooglus> it's my fault, so I guess it comes out of my pocket

2013-07-15T15:11:39.537Z (1) <dooglus> martingale: no fractional reserve.  I paid the loss out of my pocket

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July 16, 2013, 07:44:16 AM
 #773

2013-07-15T15:11:39.537Z (1) <dooglus> martingale: no fractional reserve.  I paid the loss out of my pocket

And then I realised: there was no loss.  Some fake coins moved from an allegedly hacked account into investor accounts.  I moved them back.

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July 16, 2013, 07:45:39 AM
 #774

There's certainly the loss of people who have already withdrawn.

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July 16, 2013, 07:46:26 AM
 #775

I agree Coinbomb, the solution is not for good samaritans to return funds and disadvantage themselves to those who keep them.  Just roll it back, they coins were never going to be able to be withdrawn anyway.
I have a mixed feeling about it, but I kinda support it. The situation is a bit like the Mt.Gox hack when a person sold Bitcoins he did not have/own.

My main consern is if the roll back is not bug free.

Btw, how do you handle invested money that have been deinvested and withdrawn the last days? Take it as a personal loss?
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July 16, 2013, 07:52:48 AM
 #776

2013-07-15T15:11:39.537Z (1) <dooglus> martingale: no fractional reserve.  I paid the loss out of my pocket

And then I realised: there was no loss.  Some fake coins moved from an allegedly hacked account into investor accounts.  I moved them back.

do you have contact on that whale? if so you should give him back that 120 he sent you and happily invite him back to JD.
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July 16, 2013, 07:54:34 AM
 #777

True, it's very similar to the 2011 gox hack however the main issue is that dooglus made people believe that the balances won't be rollbacked and changed his mind after thinking more about it. It'd be more akin to if Gox reopened with all the trades done, said that they'll take the losses, and then did a rollback.

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July 16, 2013, 07:58:16 AM
 #778

There's certainly the loss of people who have already withdrawn.

This is true.  Those accounts will have a negative balance.  If the missing coins are never repaid, I will cover that loss with my own coins.

The procedure I ran to rollback the fake bets was:

1) work out how much each investor gained by the fake bets, by considering what percentage of the bankroll they represented for each of the bets.  this percentage changed as the bets were made
2) if the investor's balance was lower than that amount, divest enough coins to make the balance big enough, if possible, else divest all
3) debit the account with the amount gained from the fake bets

So you may find that the bets have been taken from your balance rather than your investment.

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July 16, 2013, 07:59:48 AM
 #779

do you have contact on that whale? if so you should give him back that 120 he sent you and happily invite him back to JD.

I do.  I credited the celeste account with the 1300 coins that I rolled back - it was previously at -1180, so now it has a positive 120 BTC balance.

He said:

(12:49:53 AM) I might play for a while.
(12:50:22 AM) a tough decision.

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July 16, 2013, 08:00:52 AM
 #780

2013-07-15T15:11:39.537Z (1) <dooglus> martingale: no fractional reserve.  I paid the loss out of my pocket

And then I realised: there was no loss.  Some fake coins moved from an allegedly hacked account into investor accounts.  I moved them back.

do you have contact on that whale? if so you should give him back that 120 he sent you and happily invite him back to JD.

Dooglus said in chat that the 120 was returned to celeste/nakowa/flory
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