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[superduh]

the market cap for this operation is around 15 million!!! WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT i mean hope investors don't lose money but that is quite a valuation. it's also interesting that everyone is looking to have someone else mine on their behalf instead of getting the equipment themselves

[Epoch]

the market cap for this operation is around 15 million!!! WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT i mean hope investors don't lose money but that is quite a valuation. it's also interesting that everyone is looking to have someone else mine on their behalf instead of getting the equipment themselves

Market cap is arbitrary. The vast majority of the available shares will never be sold. Currently there's, what, 21k shares sold? That's $300k.

Don't forget that, as with all fixed-hashrate shares/bonds (take gigamining as an example. A 5Mhps gigamining share is essentially worthless today), their value naturally decreases as difficulty rises. Early adopters end up paying the most (0.15 or 0.16 BTC), but also get more total income because they start mining sooner. Latecomers obviously have a lower income expectation so they will not be willing to pay as much for a share; shares simply won't be worth 0.15 for long. Share price will start to go down, and continue to go down, at some point.

[Duffer1]

the market cap for this operation is around 15 million!!! WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT i mean hope investors don't lose money but that is quite a valuation. it's also interesting that everyone is looking to have someone else mine on their behalf instead of getting the equipment themselves

Have you tried getting hardware?  I almost got scammed out of $3k trying to buy a pre-order.  You simply cannot get hardware within a profitable time frame without pooled capital.  (unless you have the $$ to get a KNC Saturn/Jupiter on your own).

[SimonBelmond]

the market cap for this operation is around 15 million!!! WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT i mean hope investors don't lose money but that is quite a valuation. it's also interesting that everyone is looking to have someone else mine on their behalf instead of getting the equipment themselves

Market cap is arbitrary. The vast majority of the available shares will never be sold. Currently there's, what, 21k shares sold? That's $300k.

Don't forget that, as with all fixed-hashrate shares/bonds (take gigamining as an example. A 5Mhps gigamining share is essentially worthless today), their value naturally decreases as difficulty rises. Early adopters end up paying the most (0.15 or 0.16 BTC), but also get more total income because they start mining sooner. Latecomers obviously have a lower income expectation so they will not be willing to pay as much for a share; shares simply won't be worth 0.15 for long. Share price will start to go down, and continue to go down, at some point.

@superduh: The market cap is actually only the shares which are sold by Lab_Rat. So currently around 21000 x 0.16 BTC

Don't forget that these shares are x gh and no power or hosting fee deducted. So theoretically if Lab_Rat pulls it off the right way, the shares should be worth at least something even in years to come.

@ Lab_Rat: You mentioned somewhere that you think you can hold it with no power or hosting fee deducted down to about 30USD/BTC. Obviously that is just an assuption as for now. What I propose (in case you have not considered) is to build a considerable fund in USD to cover these costs in case BTC takes a huge dive. Let's assume BTC goes down to 1 USD. I think in that case the hashrate will drop drastically. So after the difficulty change it would be superb to mine away at full steam. If the price recovers the mined bitcoins are worth a lot.

OK i know it's just one of many possible szenarios and no-one knows what will happen when in the BTC world. However, I think the proposal above would give incentive to buy shares because we know that our shares would keep mining as long as somehow possible.

Hope I made myself clear

Simon

[superduh]

do you guys know what market cap MEANS? market cap is based on all shares issued (even to owners) that might not be "tradeable" yet. it's not only the shares that are released to public. if you guys don't understand what market cap is or what it implies than be ready to lose your money or btc.

as far as hardware goes. personally i can purchase any hardware that labrat can purchase. i understand this may be different for others. however, they may consider a groupbuy as an option too.  pointing out that the current market cap is 15 million is very relevant for people who understand what that means.

[SimonBelmond]

do you guys know what market cap MEANS? market cap is based on all shares issued (even to owners) that might not be "tradeable" yet. it's not only the shares that are released to public. if you guys don't understand what market cap is or what it implies than be ready to lose your money or btc.

As far as hardware goes. personally i can purchase any hardware that labrat can purchase. i understand this may be different for others. however, they may consider a groupbuy as an option too.  pointing out that the current market cap is 15 million is very relevant for people who understand what that means.

I think our dezentralized lexicon does not share this definition:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marktkapitalisierung

The english article needs revising as the first sentence is first implying what your definition of market cap was. However within that first scentance it disagrees already. First it states price times total shares issued. Then it states price times shares outstanding (not held by company itself).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_capitalization

[superduh]

do you guys know what market cap MEANS? market cap is based on all shares issued (even to owners) that might not be "tradeable" yet. it's not only the shares that are released to public. if you guys don't understand what market cap is or what it implies than be ready to lose your money or btc.

As far as hardware goes. personally i can purchase any hardware that labrat can purchase. i understand this may be different for others. however, they may consider a groupbuy as an option too.  pointing out that the current market cap is 15 million is very relevant for people who understand what that means.

I think our dezentralized lexicon does not share this definition:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marktkapitalisierung

The english article needs revising as the first sentence is first implying what your definition of market cap was. However within that first scentance it disagrees already. First it states price times total shares issued. Then it states price times shares outstanding (not held by company itself).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_capitalization

aren't the non-public shares already issued to the owners? with companies going public there are no longer "private shares". so for example all the shares that Mark Zuckerberg had are considered public now even though they were private before. when a company goes public all shares are converted to "public shares". you can't have a public/private hybrid. so all the shares that labrat has issued to itself are all actual shares (in the real world). it just hasn't sold those shares to anyone, yet.

another example is AsicMiner where bitfunder's ownership is taken into account when considering market cap

[mmmerlin]

do you guys know what market cap MEANS? market cap is based on all shares issued (even to owners) that might not be "tradeable" yet. it's not only the shares that are released to public. if you guys don't understand what market cap is or what it implies than be ready to lose your money or btc.

The misunderstanding here arises from the fact that these are not "shares" in the traditional sense; the shares which Lab_Rat holds on the exchange that are not sold will not be paying dividends, therefore for market cap it is only fair to evaluate on the shares that have actually been sold. Furthermore, if all the "shares" that are yet to be sold are sold, then my understanding is that more will simply be created in order to let the company expand. This does not dilute other investor's holdings as it would with a normal share because these function more like bonds.

as far as hardware goes. personally i can purchase any hardware that labrat can purchase. i understand this may be different for others. however, they may consider a groupbuy as an option too.  pointing out that the current market cap is 15 million is very relevant for people who understand what that means.

I don't know that this is necessarily true. He has managed to negotiate some BFL preorders, and some BFL units that are in hand, for reasonable prices, and due to his purchasing power is in the process of securing a deal with BitFury that wouldn't be available to the general public (I believe, though I stand to be corrected on this). Perhaps you have enormous purchasing power, I don't know who you are, but 99% of people, even ones who can afford expensive units, cannot purchase hardware in the way LRM can.

[mmmerlin]

aren't the non-public shares already issued to the owners? with companies going public there are no longer "private shares". so for example all the shares that Mark Zuckerberg had are considered public now even though they were private before. when a company goes public all shares are converted to "public shares". you can't have a public/private hybrid. so all the shares that labrat has issued to itself are all actual shares (in the real world). it just hasn't sold those shares to anyone, yet.

another example is AsicMiner where bitfunder's ownership is taken into account when considering market cap

Yeah, it is clear now that the misunderstanding is in the use of the term "shares". They really do function more like bonds/mining contracts, so this line of reasoning does not hold as Lab_Rat will not receive dividends from the bonds that are unsold.

[Lab_Rat]

I would like to clear up a lot in this post right now... The market cap is not 15 Million... Check your 0's, it's only 1.5M.

The next thing to clear up is my guaranteed minimum hashrate is once all hardware is received, so in the event I were to get 250GH in the next 10 days as I see happening, it will not work out to 100MH/s per bond although the hardware has been ordered and is being ordered.  I'm sure everyone would rather me pay out the ~25 BTC/wk that 250GH/s would pull in than wait until I can pay out 100MH/s per bond am I correct?

Another thing is that I have provided a calculator of how I am spending money for company.  This shows a likely range of 300-400MH/s per bond after all hardware on order or being ordered has been delivered.  This will start much lower and ramp up over the weeks ahead, but you should expect something close to that range by the time all hardware for current bond purchases are in hand.

Additionally I plan on keeping up with network growth which will allow my bonds to maintain value if not increase over time.

Finally, as mmmerlin stated, I am not claiming dividends for the unsold bonds.  I am still only claiming 25% of all dividends paid out to reinvest in additional hardware for the company and cover costs associated with running this hardware.

I sincerely hope this clears up everything that is being discussed.

[superduh]

my bad.... i guess i didn't realize that these were bond like instruments as opposed to actual "shares" of Lab Rat.

[VinceSamios]

Some maths for my own benefit, which I may as well share:

First:
20821 LRM shares sold so far
250GH coming online "within 10 days"

Remove management expenses:
250GH - 25% = 187.5GH

20 BTC/week would be generated with 187.5GH currently (conservative figures)

Lets assume another 5000 LRM shares will be sold between now and "in about 10 days" - 25821 total

Dividend would therefore be about: 0.00077456 per share

Second:
Now lets assume 100,000 shares have been issued, and 10TH is online in.... 3 months... and lets assume difficulty of 75mil:

66 BTC/day - 25% = 346.5BTC/week
Divided by 100,000 shares = 0.003465 per share
ROI in about 46 weeks - that's about 5 x better than other mining shares.

[Lab_Rat]

Some maths for my own benefit, which I may as well share:

First:
20821 LRM shares sold so far
250GH coming online "within 10 days"

Remove management expenses:
250GH - 25% = 187.5GH

20 BTC/week would be generated with 187.5GH currently (conservative figures)

Lets assume another 5000 LRM shares will be sold between now and "in about 10 days" - 25821 total

Dividend would therefore be about: 0.00077456 per share

Second:
Now lets assume 100,000 shares have been issued, and 10TH is online in.... 3 months... and lets assume difficulty of 75mil:

66 BTC/day - 25% = 346.5BTC/week
Divided by 100,000 shares = 0.003465 per share
ROI in about 46 weeks - that's about 5 x better than other mining shares.

That's truly sad that that's 5x better than other mining bonds due to the fact that if 100k sold you could expect roughly 50TH with LabRatMining, therefore you would receive your ROI 25x as fast truly...

See my calculator as the 10TH was a minimum original estimate, this calculator shows how the money is actually being spent: http://www.labratmining.com/Bonds/bondCalculator.html

[VinceSamios]

I'm just being conservative in my calcs LR ;-)

[Epoch]

Now lets assume 100,000 shares have been issued, and 10TH is online in.... 3 months... and lets assume difficulty of 75mil:

66 BTC/day - 25% = 346.5BTC/week
Divided by 100,000 shares = 0.003465 per share
ROI in about 46 weeks - that's about 5 x better than other mining shares.

As I mentioned earlier, a 1-year ROI is a 'soft boundary' beyond which people will no longer be so willing in invest further capital. 46 weeks is already approaching that boundary, and that's assuming a constant difficulty of 75 million during the entire 46 week period. Clearly that is an unrealistic assumption.

Difficulty will continue to grow beyond 100m, perhaps beyond 200m in that time frame. Under such conditions the break-even point will continue to be pushed back and it is conceivable that investors may  never recover their initial investment (look no further than Gigamining for an example of this).

This is all speculation from me, and from you, and it is pointless to argue about mere speculation. Everyone has their own opinion on what they expect will happen. The truth is that no one really knows. In the end all we can really do is just place our bets and watch the chips fall where they may.

I will say this: that key to success in this venture is to get as much hashrate as possible deployed as quickly as possible. Any other consideration must be secondary. If LabRat can pull that off, investors stand a much better change of achieving a reasonable ROI.

[VinceSamios]

Most of the mining stocks are on 5 year ROI...

[Epoch]

Most of the mining stocks are on 5 year ROI...

Whether true or not, making such generalizations is pointless. If you want to go down that road, why not compare LRM to buying hardware directly and getting a 46-day ROI instead of 46-weeks? These are just example numbers, BTW; try not to take them seriously. I do not take your '5-year ROI' statement seriously either. Using either of these comparisons to decide whether LRM is a 'good' or 'bad' investment is missing the point.

What makes LRM either a good or bad investment is the virtue of its underlying fundamentals, the trustworthiness of its operator, what the BTC exchange rate does over the life of the investment, and how quickly difficulty rises. Coming up with answers to most of these questions requires skill with a Ouija board. It has nothing to do with how well or poorly "other mining stocks" are rated. Everyone has their own crystal balls, Ouija boards, skeletons in the closet, and other spiritual advisors, and they will see what they want to see.

As with all things Bitcoin, never invest more than you are able to comfortably lose. Having said that I sincerely wish LabRat the best of luck with his venture and hope it turns out well for everyone. It is one of the more interesting ventures out there for me, which is why I continue to watch as it develops. In a year's time, let's see if this has turned a profit for an investment made today.

[VinceSamios]

When you go to a market where people are selling turnips, they are generally valued somewhat the same. Nothing hocus pocus about that. I've done a lot of reading of stock profiles, news etc, and invested in a few stocks, and the general rule of thumb at the moment seems to be shares are valued at about 5 years ROI. It's a fact, although also a generalisation.

Since the mining stocks are relatively similar, theres no reason to think the performance of each stock wouldn't mirror one another.

As for the buying hardware vs buying stocks - there are loads of extremely legitimate reasons why people prefer to buy stocks - I sold my BFL pre-orders because I didn't have faith I'd be receiving them anytime soon, and my power costs (£0.17/kwh) are not hugely economical. I invested that money in shares. I'm bullish on ActM and LRM. I'm bearish on ASICM.

It's funny you started talking about hocus pocus in respect to my post, while also saying "What makes LRM either a good or bad investment is the virtue of its underlying fundamentals" because to be fair my post was based entirely on fundamentals and fundamentals alone.

I'll put my hat on a stake and say the remaining 80k odd shares will be snapped up within about 3 months.

[Lab_Rat]

I spoke with Dave today and one of the major parts of the deal he is making with LabRatMining is in the process of being finalized.  Once it is confirmed I will be delivering specifics regarding this part of the deal.

From what we discussed he should be able to confirm this within the next couple days without a problem.

Updated estimates:
354MH/s per bond
10.5TH/s total hashrate
http://www.labratmining.com/currentHashrate.html

[redphlegm]

I spoke with Dave today and one of the major parts of the deal he is making with LabRatMining is in the process of being finalized.  Once it is confirmed I will be delivering specifics regarding this part of the deal.

From what we discussed he should be able to confirm this within the next couple days without a problem.

Updated estimates:
354MH/s per bond
10.5TH/s total hashrate
http://www.labratmining.com/currentHashrate.html

I know it's hard to say but do you have an estimate or rough timeline for hashrate coming online or ordered hardware vs expected delivery date(s) (and maybe even confidence level)?