Alpha Technology Litecoin (Scrypt) ASIC Miner Order Batch 1 Now!

[brian_23452]

Its About Sharing,

The thing is all those things you mentioned were promised in the original deal that customers payed for.  It would be a little like paying an extra 5k to have leather seats in your car, then you go to take delivery and the seats are cloth, and the sales guy tries to tell you how cloth is better cause you won't burn yourself on a hot day (but of course won't give back the 5 grand). 

You like to ask questions, so here is one for you.  Why do you think this is going to turn out well?  It is obvious to anyone that doesn't have stake in this company that they will not be completed on schedule.  And even if it is, do you really think they are going to send it to you?  They are very open about also building a cloud mining operation.  Do you really think they are going to give you machines first and then themselves?  Given that they have no contractual delivery date with you can deliver whenever they feel like it, or not at all?

It isn't like this company came along and said they know how preorders have gone in the past and they wanted to do it different, and then did things different.  This preorder has gone so far exactly like every other proerder ever, and we all know how those turned out for customers.  So my question to you is, given that they have done things exactly the same, why do you think this will somehow turn out different for customers?

I'm not sure I follow your analogy. We have went from a 5Mh/s miner to 50Mh/s miner. A few extras were pulled, which would be analogous to bells and whistles in a car, and replaced with a lot more H.P.

No, you went from having no miner, to having no miner.  You went from 0Mh/s to 0Mh/s. 

Regarding do I think they will send it to me and not mine. I most certainly do. I'm not sure if you are projecting what you would do, but when a business tells me they are not going to use my device before shipping it AND that they are not getting in the mining industry, I take that at face value....
Its about sharing

Let me word it another way.  They have specifically worded the contract in such a way that they are under no obligation to deliver a device to you in any specific time frame, or even at all.  They go out of their way to make that point clear.  If they have every intention of delivering to you first, and not themselves, why word the contract like that?  Reminds me of a deal I was involved in years ago where the customer wanted to put some ridiculous clause in the contract that in effect, would have allowed them to accept our services rendered, and then not pay us.  I refused naturally.  They argued with me to some length about how they would never actually enforce that clause, it was just something they put in all their contracts.  I argued back that if they were not planning on enforcing it, and wouldn't enforce it like they promised, then it didn't need to be there at all. 
Anyways, the point is, they built a mining operation, and at the same time as they were building their mining operation locked people into contracts with no delivery date.  These were not mistakes or accidents or coincidences.  6 months from now when people actually get their machines no one will even remember what was promised, all that will be there is what is written.  As a general rule, that is how businesses operate.
One thing is for sure, I'm in the wrong line of work.  I need to stop dealing with businesses and start dealing with the general public instead!

[1714187098]

1714187098

[retro72]

I think we should cut IAS some slack. He's one of the few Alpha customers with the balls to routinely post in this forum and although I find some of his posts optimistic and annoying sometimes (sorry mate), he does at least put some thought into them and is big enough to try to defend his position and not just post and run like some of the Alpha supporters.

I may not agree with some of his opinions but I appreciate that he's here making them and not hiding behind the ban hammer on the Alpha forums.

[Its About Sharing]

Thanks Retro. Like I said, I'm not happy with the situation and hope (not my favorite word) that things work themselves out here.
Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Apparently, a lot of what you have posted is true, so things don't look great. 
I wouldn't exactly call me an optimist here, but I'm not a pessimist. I don't even take what has been said as being against me, just
differing opinions and interpretations. Not sure how you all feel towards one another, but this is not at all personal to me with
anyone on this forum. I would easily hang out and talk Bitcoin with most anyone here.      I never lose sight of the fact that this
is essentially about customers and Alpha Technology, and there is no reason for use as customers to be vehemently against one another.
I don't get that feeling even with the disagreements.

Brian - We are not at the deadline yet (lets say end of July) so as far as what we are to receive we can say a 50Mhs unit and not 5Mhs. (or the larger units)
I hope you are wrong with your 6 months from now statement. You may very well be right, but if there is a delay, 6 months would be incredulous considering
what AT is doing is not exactly new (like when the other manufactures entered the field.) Well, the Scrypt part is new I guess.

I'm not sure about the way the contract is worded. Can you post what it is that you are talking about? This might be something Retro can add to his
collection of problems. I follow your example and that was pretty bright of you as it seems many companies do indeed try to cover for themselves
should problems arise. No reason to put stuff in writing if you don't intend to ever use it. So I am very curious about what the contract states.

Take care guys
IAS

[diego2000]

Its About Sharing,

The thing is all those things you mentioned were promised in the original deal that customers payed for.  It would be a little like paying an extra 5k to have leather seats in your car, then you go to take delivery and the seats are cloth, and the sales guy tries to tell you how cloth is better cause you won't burn yourself on a hot day (but of course won't give back the 5 grand). 

You like to ask questions, so here is one for you.  Why do you think this is going to turn out well?  It is obvious to anyone that doesn't have stake in this company that they will not be completed on schedule.  And even if it is, do you really think they are going to send it to you?  They are very open about also building a cloud mining operation.  Do you really think they are going to give you machines first and then themselves?  Given that they have no contractual delivery date with you can deliver whenever they feel like it, or not at all?

It isn't like this company came along and said they know how preorders have gone in the past and they wanted to do it different, and then did things different.  This preorder has gone so far exactly like every other proerder ever, and we all know how those turned out for customers.  So my question to you is, given that they have done things exactly the same, why do you think this will somehow turn out different for customers?

I'm not sure I follow your analogy. We have went from a 5Mh/s miner to 50Mh/s miner. A few extras were pulled, which would be analogous to bells and whistles in a car, and replaced with a lot more H.P.

No, you went from having no miner, to having no miner.  You went from 0Mh/s to 0Mh/s. 

Regarding do I think they will send it to me and not mine. I most certainly do. I'm not sure if you are projecting what you would do, but when a business tells me they are not going to use my device before shipping it AND that they are not getting in the mining industry, I take that at face value....
Its about sharing

Let me word it another way.  They have specifically worded the contract in such a way that they are under no obligation to deliver a device to you in any specific time frame, or even at all.  They go out of their way to make that point clear.  If they have every intention of delivering to you first, and not themselves, why word the contract like that?  Reminds me of a deal I was involved in years ago where the customer wanted to put some ridiculous clause in the contract that in effect, would have allowed them to accept our services rendered, and then not pay us.  I refused naturally.  They argued with me to some length about how they would never actually enforce that clause, it was just something they put in all their contracts.  I argued back that if they were not planning on enforcing it, and wouldn't enforce it like they promised, then it didn't need to be there at all. 
Anyways, the point is, they built a mining operation, and at the same time as they were building their mining operation locked people into contracts with no delivery date.  These were not mistakes or accidents or coincidences.  6 months from now when people actually get their machines no one will even remember what was promised, all that will be there is what is written.  As a general rule, that is how businesses operate.
One thing is for sure, I'm in the wrong line of work.  I need to stop dealing with businesses and start dealing with the general public instead!

You assume the wording of the contract is malicious, when I  simply see a company, that wants to protect itself from the unknown.

- AT said Q2/Q3 for delivery at the very beginning
- before Gridseed and Company even came out with their ASICs, AT changed that to July

If I am out to scam people, why would I not just stick with Q2/Q3?
I already have all the pre order money. I could then produce the chips, put them to mine in July, tell people to pay the balance, because I'll ship in September.

Please understand, that I'm just as concerned about some of the things that are going on, as most AT customers are, but I refuse to brand AT as a scam, when there is zero evidence to support it.

[vesperwillow]

Their cooling lingo just caught my eye, after re-reading their update. They're saying how you'll *have* to have an official air cooling system (air conditioning, etc) to compliment their gear, instead of just relying on fans. That's kindof odd.

I'm not saying it isn't smart, or that it wouldn't help, but it shouldn't be a requirement if the system is designed with proper thermal dissipation in mind. The PCB's need wide copper lines in the right places, and you just need the right cooling on the chip itself. I've seen Blade units stacked in hot rooms without issues, so why would AT's stuff "need" extra cooling? Especially running at lower wattage.

Unless it's their way of legally wiping their hands of instability issues down the road, with chips with high variance of quality.

Is it just me, am I mis-reading their wording?

I do not see anything about having to have a special air cooling system in the update.

Spreading FUD much?

No, it was in one of the things Fiaz said, either a response or a posting of an update. In going back, I see that it has been deleted along with some other stuff. This thread dropped another half page again, posts are being removed.

I have no dog in this game, I have no orders with A/T or their competition. I'm just keeping track of them. They (he?) said that you don't want to rely on just airflow from a fan, but you want supplimental cooling for the units.


They still haven't addressed the CE issue with their equipment. It looks like they tried to dodge the bullet by saying that they're including commercial power supplies in the shipment, which are already certified, but their *miner* has to be CE certified as well--not just the PSU. Another point they're avoiding.

Don't just wave the FUD flag when it's merely unbiased concern.

[Red Star Mining]

Their cooling lingo just caught my eye, after re-reading their update. They're saying how you'll *have* to have an official air cooling system (air conditioning, etc) to compliment their gear, instead of just relying on fans. That's kindof odd.

I'm not saying it isn't smart, or that it wouldn't help, but it shouldn't be a requirement if the system is designed with proper thermal dissipation in mind. The PCB's need wide copper lines in the right places, and you just need the right cooling on the chip itself. I've seen Blade units stacked in hot rooms without issues, so why would AT's stuff "need" extra cooling? Especially running at lower wattage.

Unless it's their way of legally wiping their hands of instability issues down the road, with chips with high variance of quality.

Is it just me, am I mis-reading their wording?

I do not see anything about having to have a special air cooling system in the update.

Spreading FUD much?

No, it was in one of the things Fiaz said, either a response or a posting of an update. In going back, I see that it has been deleted along with some other stuff. This thread dropped another half page again, posts are being removed.

I have no dog in this game, I have no orders with A/T or their competition. I'm just keeping track of them. They (he?) said that you don't want to rely on just airflow from a fan, but you want supplimental cooling for the units.


They still haven't addressed the CE issue with their equipment. It looks like they tried to dodge the bullet by saying that they're including commercial power supplies in the shipment, which are already certified, but their *miner* has to be CE certified as well--not just the PSU. Another point they're avoiding.

Don't just wave the FUD flag when it's merely unbiased concern.

Oh so your your just spreading FUD for the public good?  There is no CE issues anymore and you know that.  As they're shipping separate and external PSU's that are off the shelf plus already certified.  Which will drastically help with any heat issues.  So why an Earth would they now come out and say special extra colling is needed now.  When they have just made them a lot cooler.

Trollol  

[vesperwillow]

Oh so your your just spreading FUD for the public good?  There is no CE issues anymore and you know that.  As they're shipping separate and external PSU's that are off the shelf plus already certified.  Which will drastically help with any heat issues.  So why an Earth would they now come out and say special extra colling is needed now.  When they have just made them a lot cooler.

Trollol  

If you're that daft, I'll just drop out of this thread. The units, if they use electricity, have to be certified themselves. This has been an issue for many "first time ASIC miner manufacturers". HashFast and others ran into the same cockblock, it didn't matter if the PSU was external and certified. Without third party certification, the system will fall under scrutiny and import could be a problem for people.

It was in one of the responses which has since been removed. This thread was halfway into page 77, and now it's dropped a page. Responses have been lost for some reason. Since it's no longer there, obviously there's no proof. I just recall re-reading the paragraph about 3x before posting up and asking folks if I'm mis-reading it.

What motive would I have for spreading any fear, uncertainty or doubt? I don't have any monetary interest or hopeful gains of competitors' products for any mining gear at all right now. I've simply followed AT from day 1.

[s1gs3gv]

Oh so your your just spreading FUD for the public good?

If you're that daft, I'll just drop out of this thread.

Keep up the good work VesperWillow.

[Red Star Mining]

Oh so your your just spreading FUD for the public good?  There is no CE issues anymore and you know that.  As they're shipping separate and external PSU's that are off the shelf plus already certified.  Which will drastically help with any heat issues.  So why an Earth would they now come out and say special extra colling is needed now.  When they have just made them a lot cooler.

Trollol  

If you're that daft, I'll just drop out of this thread. The units, if they use electricity, have to be certified themselves. This has been an issue for many "first time ASIC miner manufacturers". HashFast and others ran into the same cockblock, it didn't matter if the PSU was external and certified. Without third party certification, the system will fall under scrutiny and import could be a problem for people.

It was in one of the responses which has since been removed. This thread was halfway into page 77, and now it's dropped a page. Responses have been lost for some reason. Since it's no longer there, obviously there's no proof. I just recall re-reading the paragraph about 3x before posting up and asking folks if I'm mis-reading it.

What motive would I have for spreading any fear, uncertainty or doubt? I don't have any monetary interest or hopeful gains of competitors' products for any mining gear at all right now. I've simply followed AT from day 1.

Why then could KNC then go from receiving chips to shipping Jupiter's within a week.  As they didn't build PSU's into their devices.  With AlphaT shipping off shelf and already certified external PSU's separately they could quite well possibly do very similar if they know what they're doing.

Are you really posting just out of charity for the good of the 'poor' and 'scammed' customers, really?

[vesperwillow]

Why then could KNC then go from receiving chips to shipping Jupiter's within a week.  As they didn't build PSU's into their devices.  With AlphaT shipping off shelf and already certified external PSU's separately they could quite well possibly do very similar if they know what they're doing.

Aside from the fact they're a multi-million dollar corporation with investors who have deep pockets, they own a building next to an assembly line, are owned and operated by senior electronics design and engineers with more individual experience than all of AT's put together and multiplied by a random factor, and are partnered with chip/electronics/assembly folk, and have done it in the past?

You're kidding right, you're trying to compare KNC to a mom and pop shop with apparent money flow issues and a 20 year history of changing company names and ownership, which clearly never "took off" and left their roots but merely barely stayed afloat and paid their bills?

It also sounds like you're not familiar with the EU process of being an electronics OEM. As has been stated several times in the past, it doesn't matter if they include a [certified] PSU or require the customer to provide their own--if the device uses electricity, the device itself has to be certified. It sounds like they may be opting for a self-certification path to speedline the delivery process, but that doesn't come without issues. At the first sign of device issue, customs will stop import/export of their equipment. And device issue could be as simple as, running outside of the original design spec, not just your house burning down. Third party certification, which is what all of the top OEM's used, takes much, much longer, and requires assembled devices to be shipped to the certifying authority. It's one of the delays which caused issue for Cointerra and HashFast.

I also never said AT couldn't simply assemble gear, sure they could. They could put pieces together like a LEGO kit, anyone can do that. But if you're going to compare KNC to AT, then do it right. Aside from the expertise and money difference, look at it this way:

* Highest possible quality ASIC batch, tested and verified: KNC yes, AT no

* Decided to go with "quality and output may vary" chips: KNC no, AT yes

* Decided it was better to be 3 weeks late and provide the best quality product to its customers, rather than pay more to have crappier chips shipped faster: KNC yes, AT no

* Case design finalized long before assembly: KNC yes, AT no

* Mainboard design finalized long before assembly: KNC yes, AT no

* Controller boards finalized before assembly: KNC yes, AT no

* Main/Controller board PCB stress and quality checks completed before tapeout: KNC yes, AT no

* Major design changes at the last minute: KNC no, AT yes

* Feature removal throughout the whole timeline, especially last minute: KNC no, AT yes

* Frequent and smooth customer interaction and communication throughout the whole timeline: KNC yes, AT no

* Had no qualms about providing full refunds up to the very day of shipment: KNC yes, AT no

* Changed Terms of Service, Terms of Agreement and redefined their scope of intended audience: KNC no, AT yes

* Is operating outside of the laws with regard to business practices, returns, etc: KNC no, AT yes

That list could go on. But please, do tell everyone that I'm making stuff up and I'm trying to piss all over someone's daisies.

KNC had their supplimental PCB equipment not only designed, but screened and in their hand, and then assembled, long before their tapeout process had even completed. They were able to burn them in for stress tests and continue tweaking performance while waiting for delivery of the chips for final assembly. They even had cases and PCB's already assembled.

I'm not sure how long you've been around since you popped out of nowhere and started defending AT, which is suspicious in itself since you're pointing fingers, but I was around before KNC, and followed them from day 1 as well. There's a night and day difference between the operations.

So before drawing comparison, you might want to share with the class where the hell you're getting off talking to folks about FUD and pointing fingers, and why AT can do it  without any issues just because a much larger more experienced company can do it.

Are you really posting just out of charity for the good of the 'poor' and 'scammed' customers, really?

For those who know me, they know it's part of my hobby. I research, I do analysis, I make projections. I'm not an Oracle, but to date I've rarely been wrong, and not often off by much. Search through my thread history and prove me wrong if you're that interested. I've never paid a dime to any OEM shipping mining gear, the few SHA-mining boxes I got were through people offloading them. I setup a KNC reseller account hoping to perhaps grab a free box (knowing it wouldn't ROI if I'd paid for it), and to share part of its profits with charities.

Aside from that, I have my own gear I've assembled for mining purposes.

So yeah. Not sure what your deal is, but since you're the expert, I'll let you handle things.

[nwfella]

Just got a response from Alpha-t regarding my asking for refund options.  According to the e-mail since I placed the order > 5 months ago I basically don't have any :/

Kind of curious given I made final 70% payment within the last few weeks.  Getting the feeling I won't be seeing these satoshi's again :/

[kebabman]

Just got a response from Alpha-t regarding my asking for refund options.  According to the e-mail since I placed the order > 5 months ago I basically don't have any :/

Kind of curious given I made final 70% payment within the last few weeks.  Getting the feeling I won't be seeing these satoshi's again :/

Dispute with your credit card? I think I'm about to go the same route, thankfully I paid with CC, although I used Discover hope they'll be as good about charging it back as AMEX seem to be. 

[brian_23452]

Just got a response from Alpha-t regarding my asking for refund options.  According to the e-mail since I placed the order > 5 months ago I basically don't have any :/

Kind of curious given I made final 70% payment within the last few weeks.  Getting the feeling I won't be seeing these satoshi's again :/

It's right in the contract:

" You may cancel your order at any point within the five month period following the date on which we received payment of your deposit (provided that your product has not yet shipped)."

Hey, Its About Sharing, looks like they do plan on enforcing that pesky ole contract after all huh?  Imagine that.

[kebabman]

Just got a response from Alpha-t regarding my asking for refund options.  According to the e-mail since I placed the order > 5 months ago I basically don't have any :/

Kind of curious given I made final 70% payment within the last few weeks.  Getting the feeling I won't be seeing these satoshi's again :/

It's right in the contract:

" You may cancel your order at any point within the five month period following the date on which we received payment of your deposit (provided that your product has not yet shipped)."

Hey, Its About Sharing, looks like they do plan on enforcing that pesky ole contract after all huh?  Imagine that.

A/ that contract term is not legally valid under UK law, so it means nothing. If they don't deliver the goods he's entitled to a full refund, and the CC card will most likely agree with that.

B/ he said he paid the remaining 70% within the last few weeks, I don't see anything in the contract about that not being refundable.

[Its About Sharing]

It looks like all posts from Fiaz https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=220493 have been deleted!

Hi

I assure you we have enough funds, some may forget but when we started we had no competition for a long time, if there are any sales to be had in Scrypt mining we would be the ones with them. We are very busy but expect to be caught up on emails by Monday, in fact I am certain of it (there will be a few exceptions so please I know nobody likes waiting but if you're not being served it just means somebody else is). And we are sorry the payment processor keeps getting delayed we are doing everything we can to get it to you as fast as possible, rest assured we are committed to it so it will happen. We do see an increasing desire for an update and we will be releasing one either today or tomorrow; not the big one with all the specs but an update nonetheless.

Cheers

I wrote the following before finding that all posts appear to have been deleted. But it still stands... sort of.

A solution I would find amiable to all parties involved, considering that they have enough funds as stated above, is for Alpha Technology to not require payment until they are ready to ship units. This of course would involve having a working unit to show us and boxed units ready to go out the door. This insures the customer as far as the units being ready to go and on time. Also, the units would need CE certification (I'm unsure of this, Vesperwillow brought it up and it sounds important.) This benefits Alpha Technology as they stated they have enough funds and so it is a good faith action on their part.

IAS

[Its About Sharing]

Just got a response from Alpha-t regarding my asking for refund options.  According to the e-mail since I placed the order > 5 months ago I basically don't have any :/

Kind of curious given I made final 70% payment within the last few weeks.  Getting the feeling I won't be seeing these satoshi's again :/

It's right in the contract:

" You may cancel your order at any point within the five month period following the date on which we received payment of your deposit (provided that your product has not yet shipped)."

Hey, Its About Sharing, looks like they do plan on enforcing that pesky ole contract after all huh?  Imagine that.

Brian, if you recall, I asked you about this here: "I'm not sure about the way the contract is worded. Can you post what it is that you are talking about?" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=314402.msg7454111#msg7454111 And now you are taking a shot at me?

You really seem to like to jab at me. I asked you a few questions on that same page (here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=314402.msg7449856#msg7449856) and you seemed to just jump over them. Since you're in a playing mood, maybe you can have a go at them now. Here, at least answer the one that mattered.

In your reply to diego2000 you state "Put another way, say YOU had a couple hundred 250Mh/s miners right now.  Would you really head down to Fed Ex tomorrow and ship them off, or would you wait a while, make some money, and THEN sell them?  All due respect, I think it is very naive to think they would leave all that money on the table." This sounds like something you would do and you are projecting it onto others. I would ship them off because I honor my word. Life is not about making as much money as I can. We reap what we sow. I'm not sure how you can judge AT when you are basically saying you would do something that you are accusing them of, because, well, it is the "natural" thing to do.

[brian_23452]

Just got a response from Alpha-t regarding my asking for refund options.  According to the e-mail since I placed the order > 5 months ago I basically don't have any :/

Kind of curious given I made final 70% payment within the last few weeks.  Getting the feeling I won't be seeing these satoshi's again :/

It's right in the contract:

" You may cancel your order at any point within the five month period following the date on which we received payment of your deposit (provided that your product has not yet shipped)."

Hey, Its About Sharing, looks like they do plan on enforcing that pesky ole contract after all huh?  Imagine that.

A/ that contract term is not legally valid under UK law, so it means nothing. If they don't deliver the goods he's entitled to a full refund, and the CC card will most likely agree with that.

B/ he said he paid the remaining 70% within the last few weeks, I don't see anything in the contract about that not being refundable.

That is correct, it is illegal under UK law from what I understand.  Alpha Tech has previously stated they are challenging the illegality though which means they aren't willingly going to do the refund accept as it is written in the contract.  I would encourage him to pursue his legal options regarding the refund; someone posted instructions a few pages back.  The reason I mentioned it is because he said "kind of curious...".  I was simply pointing out where that came from.

[brian_23452]

Just got a response from Alpha-t regarding my asking for refund options.  According to the e-mail since I placed the order > 5 months ago I basically don't have any :/

Kind of curious given I made final 70% payment within the last few weeks.  Getting the feeling I won't be seeing these satoshi's again :/

It's right in the contract:

" You may cancel your order at any point within the five month period following the date on which we received payment of your deposit (provided that your product has not yet shipped)."

Hey, Its About Sharing, looks like they do plan on enforcing that pesky ole contract after all huh?  Imagine that.

Brian, if you recall, I asked you about this here: "I'm not sure about the way the contract is worded. Can you post what it is that you are talking about?" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=314402.msg7454111#msg7454111 And now you are taking a shot at me?

You really seem to like to jab at me. I asked you a few questions on that same page (here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=314402.msg7449856#msg7449856) and you seemed to just jump over them. Since you're in a playing mood, maybe you can have a go at them now. Here, at least answer the one that mattered.

In your reply to diego2000 you state "Put another way, say YOU had a couple hundred 250Mh/s miners right now.  Would you really head down to Fed Ex tomorrow and ship them off, or would you wait a while, make some money, and THEN sell them?  All due respect, I think it is very naive to think they would leave all that money on the table." This sounds like something you would do and you are projecting it onto others. I would ship them off because I honor my word. Life is not about making as much money as I can. We reap what we sow. I'm not sure how you can judge AT when you are basically saying you would do something that you are accusing them of, because, well, it is the "natural" thing to do.

To be honest, I completely missed your post.  To answer your questions, the concerning parts are:

1.  Regarding the delivery date, they keep promising these will ship in July.  But, if you read the terms of the contract, there is NO delivery date to be found anywhere!  The *closest* stating a delivery date is as follows:
"We are currently working hard to ensure that the products will be available for delivery as soon as possible, and hope to have them available for shipping in the second or third quarter of 2014"

Now, that isn't a guarantee.  They could ship these things next year and still claim they did their best.  But let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they stick to the tentative dates set forth in the contract.  They could still ship these things September 30th and then claim to have shipped them right on time (Q3). 

2.  Regarding what you actually get.  They promise you 5, 50, 250Mh/s or whatever the numbers they are using now are. Notice this key phrase:
"Be advised that due to the nature of their development our products are subject to change and the final device may be different to what was advertised to you whether on our site or elsewhere."

3.  And of course the escape clause: 
"We shall not be liable to you for any loss of profit or for indirect or consequential loss suffered by you whether as a result of any breach of these terms by us or as a result of our negligence."

In other words, if they completely breach the contract (hard to do, since they aren't required to do much of anything but still), even if they purposefully screw you over and ship late, there is nothing you can do.  You agreed to not hold them liable even if it is their fault, and even if they do it on purpose. 

[Its About Sharing]

Just got a response from Alpha-t regarding my asking for refund options.  According to the e-mail since I placed the order > 5 months ago I basically don't have any :/

Kind of curious given I made final 70% payment within the last few weeks.  Getting the feeling I won't be seeing these satoshi's again :/

It's right in the contract:

" You may cancel your order at any point within the five month period following the date on which we received payment of your deposit (provided that your product has not yet shipped)."

Hey, Its About Sharing, looks like they do plan on enforcing that pesky ole contract after all huh?  Imagine that.

Brian, if you recall, I asked you about this here: "I'm not sure about the way the contract is worded. Can you post what it is that you are talking about?" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=314402.msg7454111#msg7454111 And now you are taking a shot at me?

You really seem to like to jab at me. I asked you a few questions on that same page (here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=314402.msg7449856#msg7449856) and you seemed to just jump over them. Since you're in a playing mood, maybe you can have a go at them now. Here, at least answer the one that mattered.

In your reply to diego2000 you state "Put another way, say YOU had a couple hundred 250Mh/s miners right now.  Would you really head down to Fed Ex tomorrow and ship them off, or would you wait a while, make some money, and THEN sell them?  All due respect, I think it is very naive to think they would leave all that money on the table." This sounds like something you would do and you are projecting it onto others. I would ship them off because I honor my word. Life is not about making as much money as I can. We reap what we sow. I'm not sure how you can judge AT when you are basically saying you would do something that you are accusing them of, because, well, it is the "natural" thing to do.

To be honest, I completely missed your post.  To answer your questions, the concerning parts are:

1.  Regarding the delivery date, they keep promising these will ship in July.  But, if you read the terms of the contract, there is NO delivery date to be found anywhere!  The *closest* stating a delivery date is as follows:
"We are currently working hard to ensure that the products will be available for delivery as soon as possible, and hope to have them available for shipping in the second or third quarter of 2014"

Now, that isn't a guarantee.  They could ship these things next year and still claim they did their best.  But let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they stick to the tentative dates set forth in the contract.  They could still ship these things September 30th and then claim to have shipped them right on time (Q3). 

2.  Regarding what you actually get.  They promise you 5, 50, 250Mh/s or whatever the numbers they are using now are. Notice this key phrase:
"Be advised that due to the nature of their development our products are subject to change and the final device may be different to what was advertised to you whether on our site or elsewhere."

3.  And of course the escape clause: 
"We shall not be liable to you for any loss of profit or for indirect or consequential loss suffered by you whether as a result of any breach of these terms by us or as a result of our negligence."

In other words, if they completely breach the contract (hard to do, since they aren't required to do much of anything but still), even if they purposefully screw you over and ship late, there is nothing you can do.  You agreed to not hold them liable even if it is their fault, and even if they do it on purpose. 

Thanks for pointing that out.

I understand they are not going to guarantee a delivery date. I don't have a problem with point 1.  Point 2 could be a bit worrying as if those chips are not up to spec due to the nature of the quicker turn around, we are stuck. Point 3 sucks.

But what truly has me a bit worried now is what I posted above, all of Apha's posts here have been deleted (minus the quotes). That is unsettling. So, my point above about waiting for final payment until something is ready to be shipped (with CE certification) is poignant now.

IAS

ps - You didn't answer my projection question. Albeit, that is an uncomfy one.

[brian_23452]

Just got a response from Alpha-t regarding my asking for refund options.  According to the e-mail since I placed the order > 5 months ago I basically don't have any :/

Kind of curious given I made final 70% payment within the last few weeks.  Getting the feeling I won't be seeing these satoshi's again :/

It's right in the contract:

" You may cancel your order at any point within the five month period following the date on which we received payment of your deposit (provided that your product has not yet shipped)."

Hey, Its About Sharing, looks like they do plan on enforcing that pesky ole contract after all huh?  Imagine that.

Brian, if you recall, I asked you about this here: "I'm not sure about the way the contract is worded. Can you post what it is that you are talking about?" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=314402.msg7454111#msg7454111 And now you are taking a shot at me?

You really seem to like to jab at me. I asked you a few questions on that same page (here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=314402.msg7449856#msg7449856) and you seemed to just jump over them. Since you're in a playing mood, maybe you can have a go at them now. Here, at least answer the one that mattered.

In your reply to diego2000 you state "Put another way, say YOU had a couple hundred 250Mh/s miners right now.  Would you really head down to Fed Ex tomorrow and ship them off, or would you wait a while, make some money, and THEN sell them?  All due respect, I think it is very naive to think they would leave all that money on the table." This sounds like something you would do and you are projecting it onto others. I would ship them off because I honor my word. Life is not about making as much money as I can. We reap what we sow. I'm not sure how you can judge AT when you are basically saying you would do something that you are accusing them of, because, well, it is the "natural" thing to do.

To be honest, I completely missed your post.  To answer your questions, the concerning parts are:

1.  Regarding the delivery date, they keep promising these will ship in July.  But, if you read the terms of the contract, there is NO delivery date to be found anywhere!  The *closest* stating a delivery date is as follows:
"We are currently working hard to ensure that the products will be available for delivery as soon as possible, and hope to have them available for shipping in the second or third quarter of 2014"

Now, that isn't a guarantee.  They could ship these things next year and still claim they did their best.  But let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they stick to the tentative dates set forth in the contract.  They could still ship these things September 30th and then claim to have shipped them right on time (Q3). 

2.  Regarding what you actually get.  They promise you 5, 50, 250Mh/s or whatever the numbers they are using now are. Notice this key phrase:
"Be advised that due to the nature of their development our products are subject to change and the final device may be different to what was advertised to you whether on our site or elsewhere."

3.  And of course the escape clause: 
"We shall not be liable to you for any loss of profit or for indirect or consequential loss suffered by you whether as a result of any breach of these terms by us or as a result of our negligence."

In other words, if they completely breach the contract (hard to do, since they aren't required to do much of anything but still), even if they purposefully screw you over and ship late, there is nothing you can do.  You agreed to not hold them liable even if it is their fault, and even if they do it on purpose. 

Thanks for pointing that out.

I understand they are not going to guarantee a delivery date. I don't have a problem with point 1.  Point 2 could be a bit worrying as if those chips are not up to spec due to the nature of the quicker turn around, we are stuck. Point 3 sucks.

But what truly has me a bit worried now is what I posted above, all of Apha's posts here have been deleted (minus the quotes). That is unsettling. So, my point above about waiting for final payment until something is ready to be shipped (with CE certification) is poignant now.

IAS

ps - You didn't answer my projection question. Albeit, that is an uncomfy one.

Well I don't see how you can just dismiss point one considering that is the one we have argued about the most.  And arguably is the most important.  The *only* thing these devices do is mine scrypt.  Exactly how much they mine is completely dependent on when they are delivered.  Had these devices shipped April first, they would have been worth a fortune.  If they ship September 30th, they will be near worthless.  Kind of makes a huge difference no?  Would be like sending 10K to coinbase to purchase bitcoins and not caring how many they send you.
Regarding your question:

"This sounds like something you would do and you are projecting it onto others. I would ship them off because I honor my word. Life is not about making as much money as I can. We reap what we sow. I'm not sure how you can judge AT when you are basically saying you would do something that you are accusing them of, because, well, it is the "natural" thing to do."

You completely miss the point.  They ARE honoring their word!  There is nothing dishonest about it.  They never promised (in any sort of legally binding way anyways) a delivery date.  The closest they came to one is September 30th shipping date.  I think you misunderstand my posts.  I am not judging them.  Frankly, I think they were too stupid to pull off what should have been easy money but their plan itself was brilliant (albeit, stolen from others).  The entire reason I posted what I did is because I DO trust them to do their best to fulfill the terms of the contract.  On the other hand, I think many people such as yourself didn't actually pay any attention at all to what it was they were actually promising when you sent them all that money. 

Now I DO think they were disingenuous at best regarding what they posted on the forums and stuff.  But remember these were sales people.  That's what salespeople do.  They paint their product in the best possible light.  What I was simply suggesting was to not simply take them at their "off the record" word, but look at what they were willing to put on the record.  If a person tells you over and over and over again that something will ship by a certain date they are 100 percent sure of it, BUT they won't sign that into the contract, obviously they aren't nearly as sure of it as they are saying. 
Where I disagree with you is, you seem perfectly willing to take their sales people's promises at face value.  I on the other hand ask myself, if they are so sure of the specs and delivery dates, why aren't they willing to sign to that?  This has nothing to do with my personal honesty.  Simply my experience in the business world has been over and over again, that nothing anyone says is worth a damn, the only thing worth a damn is what it says in the contract.  I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  I can promise you though I get ripped off less often then you