NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[joefox]

I've been doing some thinking about Nxt, and would like to make a guess at the third part of BCNext's plan:

The minimum transaction fee for Nxt must be set to zero, OR (far less likely) the process of awarding fees for forging must be removed completely.

We'll see if I'm right when the next part of The Plan gets posted, but here's my argument:

• "Value" for Nxt is derived based on the services it provides.  Many of these services are yet to be created, but are in the works: AT, NxtCash, Atomic Cross-Chain Trading, data storage, etc.  Nodes that participate in providing these services should be rewarded.
• Treat Nxt as a "base layer" upon which other currencies, applications, and services are built.  As few constraints as possible must must be placed on these services by the Nxt core.  The first two parts of BCNext's plan hint at this: transparent forging does away with "mining" based on probability and even introduces flexible block-generation timing; "atomic" transaction types like aliases, arbitrary messages, voting, and asset exchange operations are a flexible foundation for the creation of high-level functions at layers above the Nxt core.  Contrast this with Bitcoin, which is forever constrained as a proof-of-work system with fixed block generation times, slow transaction processing, and the implementation of a "scripting language" at its base layer.
• Just like a web page does not know anything about the network on which it sits, and the network knows nothing about the physical characteristics of the wires/fibre it runs on, all Nxt layers should be agnostic towards one another (i.e. abstracted).  As a result, a higher-layer application (such as NxtCash) has to be able to operate without dependencies on the Nxt core.  Taking this analogy further: businesses don't deploy TCP/IP networks in their IT closets for the sake of deploying networks; they do it because they want to provide a service on top of the network.  The service covers the cost of the network equipment; the equipment doesn't generate revenue on its own.  For the astute: this is basic OSI model thinking.
• There is no automated mechanism or algorithm for adapting or scaling minimum transaction fees.  It's hard-coded.  This is an odd, hobbling flaw in an infrastructure that is otherwise so effectively decentralized and so wisely architected.

Putting these items together:

Nxt services already operate on top of nodes, so the network is secured and the blockchain is maintained as a consequence of the service's existence.  Value is created at layers above the Nxt core, and "forging-only" nodes become valueless and therefore obsolete.

Services built on top of Nxt cannot be dependent on fees "charged" at a lower layer, because eventually the accounts that operate these services will be depleted.  A depletion due to fees would kill the service associated with the depleted account(s), since it would render those services unable to generate transactions.  In fact, a network attack could be formulated by flooding a Nxt service with transactions, causing it to "go bankrupt".  The only way to allow 100% availability is to remove the dependence on a minimum transaction fee, and move the profit/reward for the service up into the same layer at which the service is offered.

I believe that one element of BCNext's plan is to set the minimum transaction fee to zero.  And now I've posted my theory here, for posterity, so that I can either be mocked for my stupidity, in the future, or praised for my intuition.

[msin]

** Exchange Swarm -Let's get everyone to spend just a few minutes to push Nxt forward **


Please record your results here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuputZyRQ5-5dDNCVGdRME9tVTBzVUdHb3VXTC04QWc&usp=sharing


Please contact the following exchanges and let them know why adding Nxt is a great idea.


1. Bittrex

"
Here is the reddit post, please everyone sign up at Bittrex.

Hello NXT community,

I solicited feedback on another thread about which coins we should support on our exchange before our public launch. NXT was overwhelmingly recommended.

Before we make the final decision, we're providing a special invite code for NXT users to experience our site first hand. Go to https://bittrex.com/Account/Register and use SUPPORT_NXT as the invite code. This gets you past the invite code queue. Place some trades, enabled 2FA, or try any of our other features to help us stress the site before the final launch. If you find a bug, we're handing out bug bounties as well. Having a great exchange helps us but also helps the NXT community.

If we get 100 signs ups using that code and active on our site, we'll add NXT before our public launch.

Please let me know if you have any questions or feedback, Bill"  - Msin

"Everyone remember to add SUPPORT_NXT as the invite code so we get NXT added " - Wakasaki808



2. BTC38

"+1 on this.  btc38 is a BIG DEAL in China.  It would be as big as getting on Cryptsy.  Access the link in Chrome for automatic English translation." - RickyJames

"all of us,please come here vote for Nxt to let the btc38(an exchange platform of China) add Nxt to their database.

http://www.coin38.org/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1672

It is a good chance for Nxt promotion.
Nxt is on the 18 floor.

edit:new user need to change the avatar first.
TKS." - allwelder

** Contact Info **

http://www.coin38.org/forum.php
btc38.editor@foxmail.com
minmin.zhao@jeevoo.com


3. Kraken

support@kraken.com


4. Bitfinex

info@bitfinex.com
support@bitfinex.com


5 mcxNow

mcxnow.exchange@gmail.com


6. VirWox

office@virtualworldservices.at


7. FxBTC

master@fxbtc.com


8. BTC-e

It's nearly impossible to get more than a 'not planned' response with BTC-e. I understand they receive quite a few coin requests each day.  If you're interested in talking about Nxt:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=433283.new#new

** Updated **

9. CryptoAve

New Exchange:

https://cryptoave.com

Info@CryptoAve.Com
Suggestions@CryptoAve.Com


The big deal here is they are planning on integrating merchant tools with their coin/usd pairs. Let's let them know we're interested in adding Nxt.

Heard from Bill at Bittrex, we have about 40 sign ups for Nxt users, we need 60 more.

[abctc]

Problem accessing /admin.html.

- use http://localhost:7876/admin.html

we can find answers for almost all questions by reviewing the last Jean-Luck's posts.

[jl777]

I've been doing some thinking about Nxt, and would like to make a guess at the third part of BCNext's plan:

The minimum transaction fee for Nxt must be set to zero, OR (far less likely) the process of awarding fees for forging must be removed completely.

We'll see if I'm right when the next part of The Plan gets posted, but here's my argument:

• "Value" for Nxt is derived based on the services it provides.  Many of these services are yet to be created, but are in the works: AT, NxtCash, Atomic Cross-Chain Trading, data storage, etc.  Nodes that participate in providing these services should be rewarded.
• Treat Nxt as a "base layer" upon which other currencies, applications, and services are built.  As few constraints as possible must must be placed on these services by the Nxt core.  The first two parts of BCNext's plan hint at this: transparent forging does away with "mining" based on probability and even introduces flexible block-generation timing; "atomic" transaction types like aliases, arbitrary messages, voting, and asset exchange operations are a flexible foundation for the creation of high-level functions at layers above the Nxt core.  Contrast this with Bitcoin, which is forever constrained as a proof-of-work system with fixed block generation times, slow transaction processing, and the implementation of a "scripting language" at its base layer.
• Just like a web page does not know anything about the network on which it sits, and the network knows nothing about the physical characteristics of the wires/fibre it runs on, all Nxt layers should be agnostic towards one another (i.e. abstracted).  As a result, a higher-layer application (such as NxtCash) has to be able to operate without dependencies on the Nxt core.  Taking this analogy further: businesses don't deploy TCP/IP networks in their IT closets for the sake of deploying networks; they do it because they want to provide a service on top of the network.  The service covers the cost of the network equipment; the equipment doesn't generate revenue on its own.  For the astute: this is basic OSI model thinking.
• There is no automated mechanism or algorithm for adapting or scaling minimum transaction fees.  It's hard-coded.  This is an odd, hobbling flaw in an infrastructure that is otherwise so effectively decentralized and so wisely architected.

Putting these items together:

Nxt services already operate on top of nodes, so the network is secured and the blockchain is maintained as a consequence of the service's existence.  Value is created at layers above the Nxt core, and "forging-only" nodes become valueless and therefore obsolete.

Services built on top of Nxt cannot be dependent on fees "charged" at a lower layer, because eventually the accounts that operate these services will be depleted.  A depletion due to fees would kill the service associated with the depleted account(s), since it would render those services unable to generate transactions.  In fact, a network attack could be formulated by flooding a Nxt service with transactions, causing it to "go bankrupt".  The only way to allow 100% availability is to remove the dependence on a minimum transaction fee, and move the profit/reward for the service up into the same layer at which the service is offered.

I believe that one element of BCNext's plan is to set the minimum transaction fee to zero.  And now I've posted my theory here, for posterity, so that I can either be mocked for my stupidity, in the future, or praised for my intuition.

You could be right!
Now that I am writing a service on top of NXT, the 1 NXT fee makes it cost prohibitive. Even 0.1 is on the high side. For instance, I want to publish peer reviewed pricing data every block. Currently that costs 1440 NXT/day, which makes it DOA. Even at 144 NXT per day, it is not practical. At 14.4 NXT per day, I can start thinking about deploying it with hopes of getting subscribers to pay the cost. Eventually, it would be nice if the fee went to .001, .0001, etc. as low as we can go without letting the spam clog the network

James

P.S. Do you know the API for getting a token for website? I only see the decoding of token, but I need to generate one.

[fgbnbb]

Now, Nxt-e list INK/BTC  INK/NXT




Nxt-e.com supports multiple languages supports ( ) Japanese or other language volunteers please contact us, thanks.

[fmiboy]

P.S. Do you know the API for getting a token for website? I only see the decoding of token, but I need to generate one.

I got my respond:


No API is planned...
U r supposed to generate and sign it by urself.
here you can see, how it is done.

https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt-public/src/4073c21098076d3469b3f74d49e73ffabe3a2001/Nxt.java?at=master#cl-5732

[landomata]

im trying to do the btc38 thing but this keeps giving me an error! wont work

* Verify Q & A:    For a
fund for your safety, please do not use as this forum login password password or QQ passwords trading market. Set a good password, please fill in the above text box "Bitcoin." After repeated an error, please refresh the page and try again.

keeps just givin little yellow x

any ideas?

支持币种：虚拟币 NXT
验证问答: 比特币

have a try again,it works.

Which of the above do I put into Verify Q & A ....I tried both but still not working  

[italovers]

in coin38.org

[简讯]NXT举办星际争霸挑战赛
http://www.coin38.org/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1783
(出处: 虚拟币时代)
NXT's stronghold in coin38.org
http://www.coin38.org/forum.php?mod=forumdisplay&action=list&fid=108
Now, Nxt-e list INK/BTC  INK/NXT




Nxt-e.com supports multiple languages supports ( ) Japanese or other language volunteers please contact us, thanks.

[italovers]

in coin38.org

[简讯]NXT举办星际争霸挑战赛
http://www.coin38.org/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1783
(出处: 虚拟币时代)
NXT's stronghold in coin38.org
http://www.coin38.org/forum.php?mod=forumdisplay&action=list&fid=108
Now, Nxt-e list INK/BTC  INK/NXT




Nxt-e.com supports multiple languages supports ( ) Japanese or other language volunteers please contact us, thanks.

[abctc]

..
The minimum transaction fee for Nxt must be set to zero, OR (far less likely) the process of awarding fees for forging must be removed completely.   ..

- hm-m.. how about

All this doesn't mean that we should get rid of fees completely, we still need them as a countermeasure against spamming.

[landomata]

I believe that one element of BCNext's plan is to set the minimum transaction fee to zero.  And now I've posted my theory here, for posterity, so that I can either be mocked for my stupidity, in the future, or praised for my intuition.

This is also my thinking....the only need for minimum Tx fees to protect the Network from spam.

If we can solve the spam problem then the above will be quite easy.

[Come-from-Beyond]

@CfB

what is the API for generating a website token? It is not on the wiki, but it must exist as the NRS has the "key" functioning

No such API, u r supposed to generate it on client side coz it requires to know a passphrase.

[italovers]

im trying to do the btc38 thing but this keeps giving me an error! wont work

* Verify Q & A:    For a
fund for your safety, please do not use as this forum login password password or QQ passwords trading market. Set a good password, please fill in the above text box "Bitcoin." After repeated an error, please refresh the page and try again.

keeps just givin little yellow x

any ideas?

支持币种：虚拟币 NXT
验证问答: 比特币

have a try again,it works.

Which of the above do I put into Verify Q & A ....I tried both but still not working  

I think you can make allwelder give you operate!

[BrianNowhere]

I've been doing some thinking about Nxt, and would like to make a guess at the third part of BCNext's plan:

The minimum transaction fee for Nxt must be set to zero, OR (far less likely) the process of awarding fees for forging must be removed completely.

We'll see if I'm right when the next part of The Plan gets posted, but here's my argument:

• "Value" for Nxt is derived based on the services it provides.  Many of these services are yet to be created, but are in the works: AT, NxtCash, Atomic Cross-Chain Trading, data storage, etc.  Nodes that participate in providing these services should be rewarded.
• Treat Nxt as a "base layer" upon which other currencies, applications, and services are built.  As few constraints as possible must must be placed on these services by the Nxt core.  The first two parts of BCNext's plan hint at this: transparent forging does away with "mining" based on probability and even introduces flexible block-generation timing; "atomic" transaction types like aliases, arbitrary messages, voting, and asset exchange operations are a flexible foundation for the creation of high-level functions at layers above the Nxt core.  Contrast this with Bitcoin, which is forever constrained as a proof-of-work system with fixed block generation times, slow transaction processing, and the implementation of a "scripting language" at its base layer.
• Just like a web page does not know anything about the network on which it sits, and the network knows nothing about the physical characteristics of the wires/fibre it runs on, all Nxt layers should be agnostic towards one another (i.e. abstracted).  As a result, a higher-layer application (such as NxtCash) has to be able to operate without dependencies on the Nxt core.  Taking this analogy further: businesses don't deploy TCP/IP networks in their IT closets for the sake of deploying networks; they do it because they want to provide a service on top of the network.  The service covers the cost of the network equipment; the equipment doesn't generate revenue on its own.  For the astute: this is basic OSI model thinking.
• There is no automated mechanism or algorithm for adapting or scaling minimum transaction fees.  It's hard-coded.  This is an odd, hobbling flaw in an infrastructure that is otherwise so effectively decentralized and so wisely architected.

Putting these items together:

Nxt services already operate on top of nodes, so the network is secured and the blockchain is maintained as a consequence of the service's existence.  Value is created at layers above the Nxt core, and "forging-only" nodes become valueless and therefore obsolete.

Services built on top of Nxt cannot be dependent on fees "charged" at a lower layer, because eventually the accounts that operate these services will be depleted.  A depletion due to fees would kill the service associated with the depleted account(s), since it would render those services unable to generate transactions.  In fact, a network attack could be formulated by flooding a Nxt service with transactions, causing it to "go bankrupt".  The only way to allow 100% availability is to remove the dependence on a minimum transaction fee, and move the profit/reward for the service up into the same layer at which the service is offered.

I believe that one element of BCNext's plan is to set the minimum transaction fee to zero.  And now I've posted my theory here, for posterity, so that I can either be mocked for my stupidity, in the future, or praised for my intuition.

You could be right!
Now that I am writing a service on top of NXT, the 1 NXT fee makes it cost prohibitive. Even 0.1 is on the high side. For instance, I want to publish peer reviewed pricing data every block. Currently that costs 1440 NXT/day, which makes it DOA. Even at 144 NXT per day, it is not practical. At 14.4 NXT per day, I can start thinking about deploying it with hopes of getting subscribers to pay the cost. Eventually, it would be nice if the fee went to .001, .0001, etc. as low as we can go without letting the spam clog the network

James

P.S. Do you know the API for getting a token for website? I only see the decoding of token, but I need to generate one.

I've posed this elsewhere and still don't know if it's feasible, but what if you got rid of forging rewards altogether and instead made transactions free (or very small to prevent spamming) for NXters who forge? People who don't run a node would have to pay a higher fee. You'd practically eliminate fees as well as provide a financial incentive for people to forge. You could also make the transaction fee % based on the stake but that seems kind of elitist.

[allwelder]

im trying to do the btc38 thing but this keeps giving me an error! wont work

* Verify Q & A:    For a
fund for your safety, please do not use as this forum login password password or QQ passwords trading market. Set a good password, please fill in the above text box "Bitcoin." After repeated an error, please refresh the page and try again.

keeps just givin little yellow x

any ideas?

支持币种：虚拟币 NXT
验证问答: 比特币

have a try again,it works.

Which of the above do I put into Verify Q & A ....I tried both but still not working  

In Verify Q & A,filled: 比特币
if doesnot work,press F5,try again.

[Come-from-Beyond]

why has this thread gone so quite?

becausse NXT is dead, it is having hughe flaws end DEV cant fix them, just saying if you want to save some money sell it all now

I love you, you big soppy silly.  

i bet he bought into the ipo but then sold everything for a couple bitcoins

I bet you pretend to know much but actualy know nothing.

Nope, im one of the few people who actually understands that he knows nothing. except for that, and that, and that, and that....

Bingo, Anon. His reaction proves that u r right. I always knew that he sold cheap, but I didn't suspect that he sold so cheap, hehe.

[Anon136]

in coin38.org
[简讯]NXT举办星际争霸挑战赛
http://www.coin38.org/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1783
(出处: 虚拟币时代)
NXT's stronghold in coin38.org
http://www.coin38.org/forum.php?mod=forumdisplay&action=list&fid=108
Now, Nxt-e list INK/BTC  INK/NXT




Nxt-e.com supports multiple languages supports ( ) Japanese or other language volunteers please contact us, thanks.

wow that's awesome man. kudos for putting this to-gather.

I love white-ra but if we are going to be honest with ourselves, ret will probably be taking that nxt home.

[Meizirkki]

I've been doing some thinking about Nxt, and would like to make a guess at the third part of BCNext's plan:

The minimum transaction fee for Nxt must be set to zero, OR (far less likely) the process of awarding fees for forging must be removed completely.

We'll see if I'm right when the next part of The Plan gets posted, but here's my argument:

• "Value" for Nxt is derived based on the services it provides.  Many of these services are yet to be created, but are in the works: AT, NxtCash, Atomic Cross-Chain Trading, data storage, etc.  Nodes that participate in providing these services should be rewarded.
• Treat Nxt as a "base layer" upon which other currencies, applications, and services are built.  As few constraints as possible must must be placed on these services by the Nxt core.  The first two parts of BCNext's plan hint at this: transparent forging does away with "mining" based on probability and even introduces flexible block-generation timing; "atomic" transaction types like aliases, arbitrary messages, voting, and asset exchange operations are a flexible foundation for the creation of high-level functions at layers above the Nxt core.  Contrast this with Bitcoin, which is forever constrained as a proof-of-work system with fixed block generation times, slow transaction processing, and the implementation of a "scripting language" at its base layer.
• Just like a web page does not know anything about the network on which it sits, and the network knows nothing about the physical characteristics of the wires/fibre it runs on, all Nxt layers should be agnostic towards one another (i.e. abstracted).  As a result, a higher-layer application (such as NxtCash) has to be able to operate without dependencies on the Nxt core.  Taking this analogy further: businesses don't deploy TCP/IP networks in their IT closets for the sake of deploying networks; they do it because they want to provide a service on top of the network.  The service covers the cost of the network equipment; the equipment doesn't generate revenue on its own.  For the astute: this is basic OSI model thinking.
• There is no automated mechanism or algorithm for adapting or scaling minimum transaction fees.  It's hard-coded.  This is an odd, hobbling flaw in an infrastructure that is otherwise so effectively decentralized and so wisely architected.

Putting these items together:

Nxt services already operate on top of nodes, so the network is secured and the blockchain is maintained as a consequence of the service's existence.  Value is created at layers above the Nxt core, and "forging-only" nodes become valueless and therefore obsolete.

Services built on top of Nxt cannot be dependent on fees "charged" at a lower layer, because eventually the accounts that operate these services will be depleted.  A depletion due to fees would kill the service associated with the depleted account(s), since it would render those services unable to generate transactions.  In fact, a network attack could be formulated by flooding a Nxt service with transactions, causing it to "go bankrupt".  The only way to allow 100% availability is to remove the dependence on a minimum transaction fee, and move the profit/reward for the service up into the same layer at which the service is offered.

I believe that one element of BCNext's plan is to set the minimum transaction fee to zero.  And now I've posted my theory here, for posterity, so that I can either be mocked for my stupidity, in the future, or praised for my intuition.

You could be right!
Now that I am writing a service on top of NXT, the 1 NXT fee makes it cost prohibitive. Even 0.1 is on the high side. For instance, I want to publish peer reviewed pricing data every block. Currently that costs 1440 NXT/day, which makes it DOA. Even at 144 NXT per day, it is not practical. At 14.4 NXT per day, I can start thinking about deploying it with hopes of getting subscribers to pay the cost. Eventually, it would be nice if the fee went to .001, .0001, etc. as low as we can go without letting the spam clog the network

James

P.S. Do you know the API for getting a token for website? I only see the decoding of token, but I need to generate one.

I've posed this elsewhere and still don't know if it's feasible, but what if you got rid of forging rewards altogether and instead made transactions free (or very small to prevent spamming) for NXters who forge? People who don't run a node would have to pay a higher fee. You'd practically eliminate fees as well as provide a financial incentive for people to forge. You could also make the transaction fee % based on the stake but that seems kind of elitist.

To be able to forge yourself any practical income you need a ton of NXT. Having that ton is already enough incentive to protect the network and your stake in it.

[allwelder]

I believe that one element of BCNext's plan is to set the minimum transaction fee to zero.  And now I've posted my theory here, for posterity, so that I can either be mocked for my stupidity, in the future, or praised for my intuition.

This is also my thinking....the only need for minimum Tx fees to protect the Network from spam.

If we can solve the spam problem then the above will be quite easy.

New Anti Spam Mechanisms:

Skycoin has coins and has coin hours. You get 1 coin hour for holding 1 coin for one hour. Transaction fees are paid in coinhours, not in coins. When you spend an output, you must spend 50% of the coin hours. Therefore spamming transactions depletes your coin hour balance exponentially quickly. If there are 100 coinhours in the inputs and only 40 coin hours created in the outputs, then the "fee" is 60 coin hours. The number of coins in the output must equal the number of coins in the input. This is hardcoded.

Transaction priority is <transaction size> / <coinhour fee>. If the priority is too low, the transaction will not be propagated and it will not be included in blocks. This will dramatically cut down on small transaction spam and keeps the blockchain small.

Each Skycoin is 1 million droplets. Each coin is divisible to six decimal places. At launch, output balances must be multiples of 1 million droplets (a whole coin). This is to prevent transaction spam. As the price goes up, this will be reduced to 100,000 droplets. We want to keep the minimum output size to 0.25 Euros  Skycoin does not have 0.000000000005 dollar transactions.

All very small "microtransactions" must be executed as off blockchain transactions. Microtransactions are instant and they are free and they dont pollute the block chain with spam.

just see some info about the anti-spam method of skycoin ,doesnt know if it is useful.

[Come-from-Beyond]

We were going to test NIP workflow. The test failed.

Can you comment on why it failed?

Coz noone bothered to complete it.