NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[mynxtcoin]

I dont see how this would increase forging with smaller account. unless I am missing something.
If you have one NXT and 999,999,999 others have one nxt, your chances of forging a block are pretty small.
forging is important, it will keep the network decentralized.

The idea is simply to make it more likely that even a forging account with 1 NXT has a pretty good chance.

This is important to accomplish. I am just not sure putting limits on forging accounts is the answer.
what about more blocks per minute?
Or perhaps a timer, if node has forged a block it must wait for N blocks before it can forge another.

[1713585477]

1713585477

[1713585477]

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[chanc3r]

Forging..

Minor (and possibly irrelevant point) there is small a proof-of-commitment - you need to have your NXT in your account for 1440 blocks before it can forge - this is a relatively short time and effectiveness goes from 0% to 100% i.e. and its not weighted.

This is not about numbers of nodes, I have NXT, do I want to set up a 24x7 computer forging - not really.
Would i let someone else use the forging capability of my stake to increase their forging - yes
Would I expect to share the forging outcome with them - yes
Do I want a network which will reliably and quickly process any transactions I perform - yes

I'n the absence of the ability to do this without transferring NXT i've deposited a chunk in Nxtio as I want to see I someone can be in the business of running a node professionally.

If these small businesses exist we get professionally run nodes, with a good amount of stake to drive the forging and people can, hopefully in the future lease their forging power to these nodes (rather than trusting them with the NXT itself).

The RasPI idea is nice but to be honest I wonder if small scale PoS forging will die out quicker than PoW mining is being killed by the need to have sizeable networks and servers - for different reasons.

In the future i would expect a NXT node to need to meet a guaranteed service level to complete the forge of the block to maintain transaction speeds or be blacklisted.

There is and has to be a business component to the solution here is not all about maths if  you want widespread adoption we need a decentralised but resilient and trustworthy network, this means we need to rely on nodes run by people who know what they are doing.

No matter how we cut it, people who set up a solar powered RasPI with 1000 nxt on it are going to be disappointed.

[grandpa_seth]

What happened with Vircurex? Price drops a lot.

[2Kool4Skewl]

Don't change the forging. Any kind of balancing effort will bring excessive complexity and a whole lot of issues. No matter what you do it'll always be the people with more resources to forge more. Flooding the already limited IP-space with forging-zombies is a bad, bad idea.

Agree. And btw, I can create millions IPv6 addresses at will.

You cannot prevent the rich from forging more than the poor without major centralization of the entire forging system. Many people have proposed "fair bitcoin mining" too but you just can't do that in a decentralized system. Period.

Agreed. The PoS forging system should not be changed in my opinion.  Once account control is implemented, people will be able to lease their forging power.  The smaller account holders can then combine their forging power and get more consistent payouts.  Their main complaint is that it take them too long to forge a block.  I believe later when transactions pick up and Nxt is worth more it will be economically advantageous to forge, even with low tx fees.

[dave5555]

All this talk about forging and running nodes and this and that and unfair and that.....

And here I am running some nodes just to strengthen the network.

I do it because if the network is successful, then we'll all be succesful. Although if I could forge more it would be a plus.

[marcus03]

I am thinking about setting up a public VPS node to offer a(nother) node for my users of my NXT client.

Which hoster should I use, what are the server specs. I would need to run it smoothly and is there still the danger of hitting hoster bandwith limits with the recent version of NRS?

Thanks!
Marcus

[zorke]

+1

[ebereon]

Thanks 7017504655955743955!

[mynxtcoin]

All this talk about forging and running nodes and this and that and unfair and that.....

And here I am running some nodes just to strengthen the network.

I do it because if the network is successful, then we'll all be succesful. Although if I could forge more it would be a plus.

Same here, i have seven nodes, but I think it is important to eventually reach a point where we do not need them.
Often I have seen the same node forge block after block.
This is not unfair, but it would be better if smaller accounts could get something too.
That is the appeal of dogecoin. Little guys can get a return, not just the big ASIC miners as is the case with Bitcoin.
Maybe more blocks per minute, maybe enforce a waiting period between forged blocks for each node? Maybe something else.

[landomata]

What happened with Vircurex? Price drops a lot.

Dude that's far out.

[rickyjames]

if leasing power forged for pools at most can only have 100000 nxt we would have several things:

pool forge every 2 3 days that  is reasonable
would have 1000000000/100000 = 10 000 nodes to ensure network

Yup - this seems like a good start.

Next Forge Problem

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mhi9360ke6mtbqs/Documento3_P%C3%A1gina_1.jpg

Equality Forge Solution

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9emz21xz8qfo1t3/Documento3_P%C3%A1gina_2.jpg


Equity Forge solution

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7i9vggpgb79ij3/Documento3_P%C3%A1gina_3.jpg

I just don't get it.  Sure, these pictures have an emotional appeal, because now all the cute kids can see over the fence.  So what?  Math is math.

You've got people who come to NXT with a mining mentality.  Eventually they realize that Proof of Stake means they can't get a super-fast machine that gives them an advantage over everybody else and put a whole bunch of newly minted coins in their pocket.  They are understandably disappointed.  So they turn from a mining rig to the other tool of the mining trade, a pool.  So now they're going to pool their NXT with others to be in a group that generates blocks more often than they could alone.  

My big question: how do they get more money from a pool than they would get forging on their own?

By the time you do all the division of fees back out to give the fair share to all of the pool members, isn't it the exact same return on investment they would get forging on their own and adding blocks less often?

THERE ARE NO NEW NXT COINS BEING CREATED FROM NOTHING, AS BITCOIN DOES.

Forging is just a recycle of existing coins.  So aren't pools just another level of "shell" in a "shell game"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_game

 

Leasing rights fees not leasing power forged

<lots of words>

I...STILL...DON'T....GET....IT.

Unlike Bitcoin, unlike DOGE, unlike all the other crap coins that are out there that I ran away from to get here, NXT IS A ZERO SUM GAME.  There are no new coins being created.  A coin that goes in one NXT forger's pocket has to come out of another NXTer's pocket, either from a NXT transaction fee payer's pocketor from another NXT forger's pocket.  HAS TO.

So for ANY scheme is concocted that pools NXT to forge,  IF that scheme claims a pool member will get some LARGER proportion of forged coins than they would get from a true 100% Proof of Stake system that NXT runs by now, THEN BY DEFINITION some other pool member is getting a SMALLER proportion than they would by acting alone.   So explain to me who is getting shafted under this new scheme?

Not that your explanation matters, because with falling transaction fees, I doubt anybody can profitably support amortizing the purchase cost of a forging node and its electricity costs under ANY scheme, including the one NXT is operating under right now.

You wanna mine free coins and get rich, go see DOGE.  You wanna try to experiment and create a more sustainable system that faces bigger challenges than it seems at first glance, stick around for this fun roller coaster ride called NXT.

[grandpa_seth]

[TwinWinNerD]

THANK YOU
7017504655955743955

[dave5555]

All this talk about forging and running nodes and this and that and unfair and that.....

And here I am running some nodes just to strengthen the network.

I do it because if the network is successful, then we'll all be succesful. Although if I could forge more it would be a plus.

Same here, i have seven nodes, but I think it is important to eventually reach a point where we do not need them.
Often I have seen the same node forge block after block.
This is not unfair, but it would be better if smaller accounts could get something too.
That is the appeal of dogecoin. Little guys can get a return, not just the big ASIC miners as is the case with Bitcoin.
Maybe more blocks per minute, maybe enforce a waiting period between forged blocks for each node? Maybe something else.

Noted.  I'm sure once fractional NXT goes into play and as transactions increase it'll become more appealing towards the average user.

[EvilDave]

All this talk about forging and running nodes and this and that and unfair and that.....

And here I am running some nodes just to strengthen the network.

I do it because if the network is successful, then we'll all be succesful. Although if I could forge more it would be a plus.

+1, good work, fellow dave.

I am thinking about setting up a public VPS node to offer a(nother) node for my users of my NXT client.

Which hoster should I use, what are the server specs. I would need to run it smoothly and is there still the danger of hitting hoster bandwith limits with the recent version of NRS?

Thanks!
Marcus

I'm running a non-hallmarked VPS 24/7 on Amazon EC2, monthly costs were $1.38 for January, and are $0.34 for Feb. Costs fuck all, basically.
Looks like hosting costs are dropping as Jean-Luc works his magic. If version 0.8 also has such low overhead, I'll fire up a few more EC2 instances at the begining of March.

I think that forging should stay as it is...big holders get bigger rewards. It's PoS, live with it.
However: we need to encourage a healthy NXT network, now and in the future, and forging income alone doesn't seem to be enough right now to motivate people. We need some way to make contributing to the network at least slightly profitable for everyone, not just guys with enough to forge.

[zorke]

Thanks once again 7017504655955743955
This is really an awesome community!!

[xyzzyx]

All this talk about forging and running nodes and this and that and unfair and that.....

And here I am running some nodes just to strengthen the network.

I do it because if the network is successful, then we'll all be succesful. Although if I could forge more it would be a plus.

+1, good work, fellow dave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF1chLj1fro&t=18s

[igmaca]

if leasing power forged for pools at most can only have 100000 nxt we would have several things:

pool forge every 2 3 days that  is reasonable
would have 1000000000/100000 = 10 000 nodes to ensure network

Yup - this seems like a good start.

Next Forge Problem

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mhi9360ke6mtbqs/Documento3_P%C3%A1gina_1.jpg

Equality Forge Solution

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9emz21xz8qfo1t3/Documento3_P%C3%A1gina_2.jpg


Equity Forge solution

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7i9vggpgb79ij3/Documento3_P%C3%A1gina_3.jpg

I just don't get it.  Sure, these pictures have an emotional appeal, because now all the cute kids can see over the fence.  So what?  Math is math.

You've got people who come to NXT with a mining mentality.  Eventually they realize that Proof of Stake means they can't get a super-fast machine that gives them an advantage over everybody else and put a whole bunch of newly minted coins in their pocket.  They are understandably disappointed.  So they turn from a mining rig to the other tool of the mining trade, a pool.  So now they're going to pool their NXT with others to be in a group that generates blocks more often than they could alone.  

My big question: how do they get more money from a pool than they would get forging on their own?

By the time you do all the division of fees back out to give the fair share to all of the pool members, isn't it the exact same return on investment they would get forging on their own and adding blocks less often?

THERE ARE NO NEW NXT COINS BEING CREATED FROM NOTHING, AS BITCOIN DOES.

Forging is just a recycle of existing coins.  So aren't pools just another level of "shell" in a "shell game"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_game

 

Leasing forged fees not leasing power forged

<lots of words>

I...STILL...DON'T....GET....IT.

Unlike Bitcoin, unlike DOGE, unlike all the other crap coins that are out there that I ran away from to get here, NXT IS A ZERO SUM GAME.  There are no new coins being created.  A coin that goes in one NXT forger's pocket has to come out of another NXTer's pocket, either from a NXT transaction fee payer's pocketor from another NXT forger's pocket.  HAS TO.

So for ANY scheme is concocted that pools NXT to forge,  IF that scheme claims a pool member will get some LARGER proportion of forged coins than they would get from a true 100% Proof of Stake system that NXT runs by now, THEN BY DEFINITION some other pool member is getting a SMALLER proportion than they would by acting alone.   So explain to me who is getting shafted under this new scheme?

Not that your explanation matters, because with falling transaction fees, I doubt anybody can profitably support amortizing the purchase cost of a forging node and its electricity costs under ANY scheme, including the one NXT is operating under right now.

You wanna mine free coins and get rich, go see DOGE.  You wanna try to experiment and create a more sustainable system that faces bigger challenges than it seems at first glance, stick around for this fun roller coaster ride called NXT.

ok just trying to help

[EmoneyRu]

Which hoster should I use, what are the server specs. I would need to run it smoothly and is there still the danger of hitting hoster bandwith limits with the recent version of NRS?

I have 0.8.0e @ DSVPS.1. 12 hours uptime (updated from 0.7.6), 151/512Mb RAM & 205/256 Swap used. Works fine.

P.S. got 2k too. Thanks

[pinarello]

who ever it is he is spreading the wealth, think he is filling orders at bter also.

CHEAP NXT but not for long...