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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2761533 times)
Bitventurer
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January 20, 2014, 09:05:01 PM
 #21461

anyone here that want to buy some NXT with moneybookers?

i need some fiat , would sell 10k nxt

PS only to trustful members...

SP8DE - The Game of Chance. Changed.
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January 20, 2014, 09:06:33 PM
 #21462

+1 we just have to accept that wealthier individuals are going to have more voting power. dont try to fight it.

No we don't. Why do we have to accept it??  It can just as easily be implemented without costs, please explain why does a vote has to be paid by the voters. (honest question, not trolling)

The only reason that makes sense to me is that we are actively trying to make people NOT vote

Yes thats exactly right. Not everyone should vote about everything. Someone who doesnt understand anything about the protocol should not be voting on issues relating to changes to the protocol. By making voting free people vote because they have no reason not to and you get ignorant voters voting on issues they know nothing about. by adding a cost people will only vote on something they actually care about which will tend to be things that they actually KNOW something about.

But then, if not everyone is supposed to vote, why have the vote, and the poll, and the community outreach in the first place?
If not everyone should vote, we don't need a voting mechanism at all.

If you're going to cherry pick who should and should not vote then its not decentralized or democratic or even useful to have the mechanism. You may as well do personal interviews on a case by case basis, lol. Those with the most stake should have the most weight in there votes as they have the most to lose. Plain and simple. Any attempts to craft a system where the stake is not the basis for voting weight will just be "abused" and have the same outcome and in fact I view this as less fair anyways. If you want to make technical changes to the network that a large holder may not understand then it is your job to educate them along with stakeholders of any size so they can make an informed decision.

Well just let me be direct here. If you guys want to keep the rich-based voting and makes NXT rich guys club. I am going to make a fork as soon as I can.  It is open source

community after all. I already have a thread  going here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=422129.0 and I have several million NXT in funding. Someone is going to do it

anyway so I will do it first when my millions of  NXT still have  some values.  

Somehow I think we are getting off track in the discussion here.

The way I read it is that you want voters who actually care about the issues that are voted upon.

The discussion revolves on how to make that happen.

I couldn't care less if that meant that everyone had equal opportunities to vote. The issue seems to be you want interest, and not "shit and giggles" votes, as that basically renders the voting system unusuable.

The fact that big stakeholders happen to be the ones with the most to lose just means that. It's a tautological statement: "I have a lot, so can lose a lot. Therefore I have a big interest in any vote".

The part that is missing, I think, is that we fail to involve the smaller stakes at this moment. If we say that a small stakeholder has less to lose and is thus less involved, we miss an important aspect of the whole equation, which is community.

So, how to involve, appreciate the smaller stakes in such a system? It would be great if everyone has an intrinsic motivation, but in my experience, that is just not the case in real life, mostly.

Edit: what am I missing?

Member of the Nxt Foundation | Donations: NXT-D6K7-MLY6-98FM-FLL5T
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January 20, 2014, 09:08:02 PM
 #21463

anyone here that want to buy some NXT with moneybookers?

i need some fiat , would sell 10k nxt

PS only to trustful members...

sent you a PM

Come-from-Beyond
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January 20, 2014, 09:11:04 PM
 #21464

Well just let me be direct here. If you guys want to keep the rich-based voting and makes NXT rich guys club. I am going to make a fork as soon as I can.  It is open source

community after all. I already have a thread  going here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=422129.0 and I have several million NXT in funding. Someone is going to do it

anyway so I will do it first when my millions of  NXT still have  some values.  

Err... U shouldn't do it, there r a few traps left for guys who want to start a fork with another genesis block. At least make sure that noone puts real money into ur coin if u don't want to be accused as a scammer.
utopianfuture
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January 20, 2014, 09:13:09 PM
 #21465

+1 we just have to accept that wealthier individuals are going to have more voting power. dont try to fight it.

No we don't. Why do we have to accept it??  It can just as easily be implemented without costs, please explain why does a vote has to be paid by the voters. (honest question, not trolling)

The only reason that makes sense to me is that we are actively trying to make people NOT vote

Yes thats exactly right. Not everyone should vote about everything. Someone who doesnt understand anything about the protocol should not be voting on issues relating to changes to the protocol. By making voting free people vote because they have no reason not to and you get ignorant voters voting on issues they know nothing about. by adding a cost people will only vote on something they actually care about which will tend to be things that they actually KNOW something about.

But then, if not everyone is supposed to vote, why have the vote, and the poll, and the community outreach in the first place?
If not everyone should vote, we don't need a voting mechanism at all.

If you're going to cherry pick who should and should not vote then its not decentralized or democratic or even useful to have the mechanism. You may as well do personal interviews on a case by case basis, lol. Those with the most stake should have the most weight in there votes as they have the most to lose. Plain and simple. Any attempts to craft a system where the stake is not the basis for voting weight will just be "abused" and have the same outcome and in fact I view this as less fair anyways. If you want to make technical changes to the network that a large holder may not understand then it is your job to educate them along with stakeholders of any size so they can make an informed decision.

Well just let me be direct here. If you guys want to keep the rich-based voting and makes NXT rich guys club. I am going to make a fork as soon as I can.  It is open source

community after all. I already have a thread  going here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=422129.0 and I have several million NXT in funding. Someone is going to do it

anyway so I will do it first when my millions of  NXT still have  some values.  

Somehow I think we are getting off track in the discussion here.

The way I read it is that you want voters who actually care about the issues that are voted upon.

The discussion revolves on how to make that happen.

I couldn't care less if that meant that everyone had equal opportunities to vote. The issue seems to be you want interest, and not "shit and giggles" votes, as that basically renders the voting system unusuable.

The fact that big stakeholders happen to be the ones with the most to lose just means that. It's a tautological statement: "I have a lot, so can lose a lot. Therefore I have a big interest in any vote".

The part that is missing, I think, is that we fail to involve the smaller stakes at this moment. If we say that a small stakeholder has less to lose and is thus less involved, we miss an important aspect of the whole equation, which is community.

So, how to involve, appreciate the smaller stakes in such a system? It would be great if everyone has an intrinsic motivation, but in my experience, that is just not the case in real life, mostly.

Edit: what am I missing?

I couldn't care less about these calculations. I care about the idea NXT represents and that would make NXT a success or not.

Either you want to present NXT as a rich guy's club with some kind of superior technology or you want to present NXT as a network/ movement for free people, for decentralization and against all power government.

The first option is not going to work for long. Because as I said we are in open source community.  

Think about bitcoin. Do you really think bitcoin succeed because it has a superior technology ?


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January 20, 2014, 09:13:19 PM
 #21466

Hey we are back on the voting thing again I see.

My proposal (again): 1 Account = 1 Vote. I don't think it can be done based on account balance. No way can that be fair.

Someone wants to create multiple accounts.....so what....let them. It will cost them and spread money to others.

Voting requirements: Account must have existed in the blockchain for 'n' of blocks before vote was initiated. Account must be a non-zero balance. (Will help cut down on multiple accounts).

Simple and quick. Could be implemented now, a website could even do it using the blockchain info until we get the VS inside NXT.


NXT VPS Server Donations can be sent here: 6044921191674841550
At the end of each month I will donate some of them back to the community.
This is separate from my main wallet so you can keep track of them. I will keep them in there and only use them for hosting.
Secondleo
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January 20, 2014, 09:13:37 PM
 #21467

May it be possible to craft and algorithm that connects coins into groups that belong to the same person?

Imagine your voting power depends on the third or higher square root of your holdings, meaning that someone with 1000NXT has 10 Votes compared to someone with a single NXT who has 1 Vote.
It's a tradeoff, but seems like a rather fair alternative.

The problem is of course, that someone could just spread out his coins to get more votes. Too bad.

So, what about the thing mentioned above. Some sort of Blockchain crawler trying to put coins into probability groups which voting power is calculated in a way similar to the above.

So, if 1000 coins are decided to belong to the same group with a 90% probability and all of them vote for the same result, they are counted as 10 Votes.
utopianfuture
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January 20, 2014, 09:14:27 PM
 #21468

Well just let me be direct here. If you guys want to keep the rich-based voting and makes NXT rich guys club. I am going to make a fork as soon as I can.  It is open source

community after all. I already have a thread  going here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=422129.0 and I have several million NXT in funding. Someone is going to do it

anyway so I will do it first when my millions of  NXT still have  some values.  

Err... U shouldn't do it, there r a few traps left for guys who want to start a fork with another genesis block. At least make sure that noone puts real money into ur coin if u don't want to be accused as a scammer.

I am not going to do anything until all open sources are out.


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  TomoChain  •    •  TomoChain 
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gbeirn
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January 20, 2014, 09:15:42 PM
 #21469

+1 we just have to accept that wealthier individuals are going to have more voting power. dont try to fight it.

No we don't. Why do we have to accept it??  It can just as easily be implemented without costs, please explain why does a vote has to be paid by the voters. (honest question, not trolling)

The only reason that makes sense to me is that we are actively trying to make people NOT vote

Yes thats exactly right. Not everyone should vote about everything. Someone who doesnt understand anything about the protocol should not be voting on issues relating to changes to the protocol. By making voting free people vote because they have no reason not to and you get ignorant voters voting on issues they know nothing about. by adding a cost people will only vote on something they actually care about which will tend to be things that they actually KNOW something about.

But then, if not everyone is supposed to vote, why have the vote, and the poll, and the community outreach in the first place?
If not everyone should vote, we don't need a voting mechanism at all.

If you're going to cherry pick who should and should not vote then its not decentralized or democratic or even useful to have the mechanism. You may as well do personal interviews on a case by case basis, lol. Those with the most stake should have the most weight in there votes as they have the most to lose. Plain and simple. Any attempts to craft a system where the stake is not the basis for voting weight will just be "abused" and have the same outcome and in fact I view this as less fair anyways. If you want to make technical changes to the network that a large holder may not understand then it is your job to educate them along with stakeholders of any size so they can make an informed decision.

Well just let me be direct here. If you guys want to keep the rich-based voting and makes NXT rich guys club. I am going to make a fork as soon as I can.  It is open source

community after all. I already have a thread  going here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=422129.0 and I have several million NXT in funding. Someone is going to do it

anyway so I will do it first when my millions of  NXT still have  some values.  

I would support such a fork!

NXT VPS Server Donations can be sent here: 6044921191674841550
At the end of each month I will donate some of them back to the community.
This is separate from my main wallet so you can keep track of them. I will keep them in there and only use them for hosting.
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January 20, 2014, 09:18:21 PM
 #21470

Well just let me be direct here. If you guys want to keep the rich-based voting and makes NXT rich guys club. I am going to make a fork as soon as I can.  It is open source

community after all. I already have a thread  going here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=422129.0 and I have several million NXT in funding. Someone is going to do it

anyway so I will do it first when my millions of  NXT still have  some values.  

Err... U shouldn't do it, there r a few traps left for guys who want to start a fork with another genesis block. At least make sure that noone puts real money into ur coin if u don't want to be accused as a scammer.

I am not going to do anything until all open sources are out.

WHAT A GREAT AMBASSADOR YOU ARE!!!!!

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January 20, 2014, 09:18:27 PM
 #21471

I couldn't care less about these calculations. I care about the idea NXT represents and that would make NXT a success or not.

Either you want to present NXT as a rich guy's club with some kind of superior technology or you want to present NXT as a network/ movement for free people, for decentralization and against all power government.

Sorry for the spoiler. Before u continue this discussion u'd better to know that PoS is required only during bootstrapping phase of Nxt. I can't reveal details now, u have to wait for the 3rd part of the plan.
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January 20, 2014, 09:19:26 PM
 #21472

As previously stated, if you try to put limits on how much stake someone can use to vote than a whale will simply break his stake up into multiple accounts. If you try to say that you get 1 vote per account than fraudsters will make a zillion accounts with one nxt each. I think your judgment may be clouded by what you would like to be the case.

I have a solution that will allow almost complete fairness and can identify accounts being controlled by a singular user/group to change the result.

I think this  a perfect time to use weak artificial intelligence algorithms.
I am all ears!

Currently developing the algorithm. It needs multiple voting events to start working.

This is the simplest explanation I can give without a coded application to demonstrate.

additional variable that needs to be added, amount of times an account has voted.

initialvoteWeight = (other variables)(1 / similarity)^2(TotalAccountVotes)

this prevents people from creating a new account each time to vote, or rather it docks them voting power

First vote will be initiated and completed.

"Banks" of accounts that have voted will be created for each option after each vote.

Bank A will always contain the accounts of the winning vote

bankA1[accounts[1-100]] 100 votes + accounts x, y, and z votes.
bankB1[accounts[101-150]] 50 votes

Bank A1 won by 66%

Second vote will commence

"Banks" of accounts that have voted will be created for each option after each vote.

bankA2[accounts[1-75 and 100-109]]  85 votes + accounts x, y, and z votes.

bankB2[accounts[76-99 and 110-150]] 65 votes

Bank A2 won by 56%


third vote will commence

"Banks" of accounts that have voted will be created for each option after each vote.

bankA3[accounts[1-35, 51-75 and 90-150]]  120 votes + accounts x and y votes.

bankB3[accounts[36-50 and 76-89]] 30 votes

BankA3 won by 80%

----

This will be translated into repeat and if statements soon.

if bankA1 contains account[z and x and y] and bankA2 contains account[z and x and y] and bankA3 contains account[z and x and y] set similarity of accounts z, x and y to similarity + 1
Code:
similarity[z] = 1
similarity[x] = 1
similarity[y] = 1
Set totalAccountVotes of account[z and x and y] to totalAccountVotes + 1

end if

if bankA1 contains account[x and y] and bankA2 contains account[x and y] and bankA3 contains account[x and y] and bankA4 contains account[x and y]

set similarity to similarity + 1
Code:
similarity[z] = 1
similarity[x] = 2
similarity[y] = 2

essentially voting power of z will be 4 times higher than x or y. This is just a rough construct of my idea.











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January 20, 2014, 09:19:59 PM
 #21473

So there should be votes, but not all are meant to vote.
The ones that are meant to vote, are not the ones with the knowledge on the subject being voted, but the ones with the big wallet.
That is a sound plan to some..

i am coming to the conclusion that a lot of people are reading "stakeholder" and think of "shareholder"...

This is not a corporation.
Why don't we try to find solutions as a community and not as a Board of Trustees?

These people are so short-sighted. It is open source software for GOD's sake. You are not holding APPLE stocks. If you guys make NXT a rich guy club, then you are killing NXT

the chance to be a real social movement.

Unless you can protect the software indefinitely. Think about it.

I'm a fairly large Nxt holder and I would be perfectly comfortable having 1 vote.  I feel that anyone who holds Nxt has a vested interest, regardless of amount.  We need to have 1 Vote per 1 Nxt Forging Private Key account.
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January 20, 2014, 09:20:15 PM
 #21474

I couldn't care less about these calculations. I care about the idea NXT represents and that would make NXT a success or not.

Either you want to present NXT as a rich guy's club with some kind of superior technology or you want to present NXT as a network/ movement for free people, for decentralization and against all power government.

Sorry for the spoiler. Before u continue this discussion u'd better to know that PoS is required only during bootstrapping phase of Nxt. I can't reveal details now, u have to wait for the 3rd part of the plan.
Oh my gawd  Shocked  Smiley
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January 20, 2014, 09:20:50 PM
 #21475

I can code a client by the end of today for macs.

Ok. Let me check my schedule...

20th - Implement mining in Lakshmi
21st - Test JS-implementations of NRS crypto algo, deploy NRS with Asset Exchange to the testnet
22nd - Resolve some issues assigned to me in Jira
23rd - Implement transaction handling in Lakshmi
24th - Review Account Control code
25th - Fix bugs in Account Control code
26th - Day-off

Well, I could do VS review on 26th, then bug fixes and testing...

That's one small step for Nxt, one giant leap for mankind!

Fuck Mt.Gox! Fuck Mintpal! Fuck Bter! FUCK kyc! Protect yourself use MGW! SUPERNET!
Recommended ASSET ->InstantDex : Lead Dev Jl777 (decentralized multi currency instant exchange)
Recommended ASSET -> Jinn : Lead Dev Come-from-Beyond (ternary processors!)
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January 20, 2014, 09:21:03 PM
 #21476

I am not going to do anything until all open sources are out.

I could give u all sources right now, this won't help. U have to hire a good cryptographer or use another crypto algo. Or rewrite the source code.
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January 20, 2014, 09:24:04 PM
 #21477

I couldn't care less about these calculations. I care about the idea NXT represents and that would make NXT a success or not.

Either you want to present NXT as a rich guy's club with some kind of superior technology or you want to present NXT as a network/ movement for free people, for decentralization and against all power government.

The first option is not going to work for long. Because as I said we are in open source community.  

Think about bitcoin. Do you really think bitcoin succeed because it has a superior technology ?

I haven't posted a single calculation either...

Mainly because they go over my head.

Having said that: íf we have a voting system, it cannot be allowed to be gamed.

As far as I see it, that is the only thing that matters. Everything else is detail.


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January 20, 2014, 09:24:13 PM
 #21478

Hey we are back on the voting thing again I see.

My proposal (again): 1 Account = 1 Vote. I don't think it can be done based on account balance. No way can that be fair.

Someone wants to create multiple accounts.....so what....let them. It will cost them and spread money to others.

Voting requirements: Account must have existed in the blockchain for 'n' of blocks before vote was initiated. Account must be a non-zero balance. (Will help cut down on multiple accounts).

Simple and quick. Could be implemented now, a website could even do it using the blockchain info until we get the VS inside NXT.


I'm honestly fine with this. One account = one vote. It's not going to prevent people from making 8,000 accounts, but that will be a lot of time invested for them if each account has to be funded.
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January 20, 2014, 09:25:36 PM
 #21479

I couldn't care less about these calculations. I care about the idea NXT represents and that would make NXT a success or not.

Either you want to present NXT as a rich guy's club with some kind of superior technology or you want to present NXT as a network/ movement for free people, for decentralization and against all power government.

Sorry for the spoiler. Before u continue this discussion u'd better to know that PoS is required only during bootstrapping phase of Nxt. I can't reveal details now, u have to wait for the 3rd part of the plan.

I really wonder how to participate in writing a NXT white paper amid such a clandestine environment..
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January 20, 2014, 09:26:37 PM
 #21480

I am not going to do anything until all open sources are out.

I could give u all sources right now, this won't help. U have to hire a good cryptographer or use another crypto algo. Or rewrite the source code.

I am too lazy for all of that. Are you making something like coingen or not ?


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