mtgox.com has blocked my account with 45 000 USD in it!

[Anonymous]

45k$ is a significant amount of money. I am wondering why is it still being discussed here at all. This is a matter for police and/or civil litigation.

Police? Seriously? What do you expect them to do, besides filing a report?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUAn_dHMnbs

the cyber police might backtrace it and the consequences will never be the same.

[Drifter]

Policing transactions would never work without further proof of theft.
Let's say an individual with a high reputation, here and on other exchange websites, decides to make a trade for 10,000 BC with a newcomer. Later, for whatever reason, he decides he wants his coins back, even though both parties made good on their side of the deal. He decides to call this transaction stolen to the forum and friends, and tells everyone to watch for the transaction.The legitimate receiver of the coins, goes to the exchange to get his money, only to find out his funds are BLOCKED, because the person with the higher reputation is claiming they're stolen.

We'll be having scams on both side of the board, and just because someone is more well-known only makes it easier for them to scam someone and gain the trust of the peers with their argument. You CAN'T begin to play judge here, or you're going to run into a very slippery slope, with anyone crying "Witch" whenever they want their money back.

These might be special circumstances, and of course special circumstances in the future, but this can't become the way to deal with things.

[Bimmerhead]

Sorry to ask this again, but I think it's fairly important.

Some on here have suggested that innocent recipients of 'tainted' bitcoins should have to return them to the original owner (ie. victim of theft).

How exactly is a recipient of bitcoins supposed to determine if they are tainted?  Is there a master list somewhere of bitcoins under dispute? 

Unless there is some quick way of checking the legitimacy of coins it would seem reasonable to expect commerce to grind to a halt.

I have purchased most of the btc I own through mtgox.  Am I at risk of having these coins seized by mtgox because somewhere along the line, maybe months ago, some of these coins were involved in some dispute?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Policing transactions would never work without further proof of theft.
Let's say an individual with a high reputation, here and on other exchange websites, decides to make a trade for 10,000 BC with a newcomer. Later, for whatever reason, he decides he wants his coins back, even though both parties made good on their side of the deal. He decides to call this transaction stolen to the forum and friends, and tells everyone to watch for the transaction.The legitimate receiver of the coins, goes to the exchange to get his money, only to find out his funds are BLOCKED, because the person with the higher reputation is claiming they're stolen.

We'll be having scams on both side of the board, and just because someone is more well-known only makes it easier for them to scam someone and gain the trust of the peers with their argument. You CAN'T begin to play judge here, or you're going to run into a very slippery slope, with anyone crying "Witch" whenever they want their money back.

These might be special circumstances, and of course special circumstances in the future, but this can't become the way to deal with things.

+ 1

Freezing funds is probably not a good way to deal with something like this.
I would go mad if somebody did that to me.

[Mahkul]

Honestly I think we should rather focus on ironing services like ClearCoin so that no one gets cheated. If they don't trust whoever they sell their Bitcoins to or buy from, they can always use escrow.

If someone choses not to use Escrow, its their problem. I wouldn't be too happy if it turned out that the coins I bought on mtgox or on any other exchange turned out to be stolen and I was asked to give them back. I don't think I would do that (that would depend on the amount, tho). Btw, how come this guy managed to get 49,000 USD worth of stolen Bitcoins? Were his business partners blind or stupid?

[BCEmporium]

I find this preoccupying!

I don't see how mtgox has legitimacy to decide whatever about something being stoled or not. Not that I defend stealing (thus I don't quite see "how" to steal bitcoin - accessing other people's computer?!), but it's not up to the "banks" or "markets" to act as "police/judge/executioner".

Also preoccupying is basically the lack or absence of reply from mtgox. His sentence doesn't aid for the truth, instead it may it make sound like if someone goes to his site and say "user X stole me", user X got his assets frozen without notice, regardless if the claims are or not valid.
This is yet a small community, now imagine if it goes like this within a big market!

I would say; mtgox trust -1 for this one.

Also it must be taken to notice:

If you were scammed (not robbed, robbed would means someone accessed your computer) report the scammer on the forum, use the WOT services, try to recover your money.
If you run a BTC market, stay away from take actions on those subjects. It's not up to you nor your duty. You'll do no more than hurt the trust, and trust is everything about Bitcoin. To not mention the BTC market has high liquidity, so how you deal with it? You froze now 45000 BTC at 1 USD/each, unfroze next month with BTC at 0.50 USD/each, what will you do about the 22500 your customer lost? Will come from your pocket? Think twice!

I may also add that Baron either had a lot of trust on mtgox or a lot of money...
On my sites, the one already up and the ones I'm developing, I even ask for people to not use it as a bank, just keep enough balance. If something happens either to me or to MyBitcoin (the BTC bank I'm working with) I wouldn't want you to say "I made you lost xK", at worst a few cents or a few btc.

[caveden]

I don't see how mtgox has legitimacy to decide whatever about something being stoled or not. Not that I defend stealing (thus I don't quite see "how" to steal bitcoin - accessing other people's computer?!), but it's not up to the "banks" or "markets" to act as "police/judge/executioner".

Oh come on, so if you see somebody getting robbed on the street and you're capable of stopping the thief, you wouldn't do it because you're not "police/judge/executioner"?
I'm much more for these behaviors than yours.

You're right that MtGox hasn't said too much, I'm also expecting the evidences. But people, this whole thing has what, two days? Chill down, not everything can be done on "real time"...

[BCEmporium]

caveden;

Issue #1; in this case nobody witnessed anything. There were no thieves running, no "street kung-fu"... just "claims and scams".
And if you go around you notice that 90% of the scams have no victims, but two scammers, one professional or more expert (who runs away with the money) and the other who believes himself to find a "get-rich fast" working scheme.

Therefore, unless someone steals your laptop with your wallet on it or installs a trojan/rootkit on your computer, there's absolutely no way you can come up with the word "steal".

Meanwhile in 2 days BTC has been already at 0.78 USD, at 0.85 USD now at 0.93 USD... with this huge floats two days seams a bit too much for holding someone's account.

[Bimmerhead]

You're right that MtGox hasn't said too much, I'm also expecting the evidences. But people, this whole thing has what, two days? Chill down, not everything can be done on "real time"...

It is not 2 days.  It is since February 13th.


Also, no one can tell us how to check for 'tainted' coins?

[Anonymous]

Note to self: Never trust Mt. Gox with large amounts of funds.

[kiba]

Note to self: Never trust Mt. Gox with large amounts of funds.

I am sure some people gave mtgox lot of money. Maybe this one trigger the "scam!" heuristic.  The problem is, we don't know what's going on.

[caveden]

caveden;

Issue #1; in this case nobody witnessed anything. There were no thieves running, no "street kung-fu"... just "claims and scams".

That's why I'm also expecting MtGox pronunciation on the matter.

And if you go around you notice that 90% of the scams have no victims, but two scammers, one professional or more expert (who runs away with the money) and the other who believes himself to find a "get-rich fast" working scheme.

What? Wait. Everyone has the right to be naive or stupid if you will. Nobody has the right to fraud or steal.
Don't blame the victims, blame the criminals. Calling a scam victim a scammer too is absurd. (unless of course he was a scammer on other situations, but that's definitely not 90% of them)

[BCEmporium]

I am sure some people gave mtgox lot of money. Maybe this one trigger the "scam!" heuristic.  The problem is, we don't know what's going on.

More to worry, instead of put a bit of effort into explain and clear or justify himself, mtgox just wrote a single void line...  

[Anonymous]

I see no reason why Mt. Gox should play police. If they want to protect their reputation, all they should do is kick the individual and his questionable funds off the exchange.

[caveden]

It is not 2 days.  It is since February 13th.

True. But it only got publicly know on the 22th...

Also, no one can tell us how to check for 'tainted' coins?

There's no easy way that I'm aware of, you must use the blockexplorer, assuming that you know addresses that have being used to deposit "dirty" money.

[BCEmporium]

And if you go around you notice that 90% of the scams have no victims, but two scammers, one professional or more expert (who runs away with the money) and the other who believes himself to find a "get-rich fast" working scheme.

What? Wait. Everyone has the right to be naive or stupid if you will. Nobody has the right to fraud or steal.
Don't blame the victims, blame the criminals. Calling a scam victim a scammer too is absurd. (unless of course he was a scammer on other situations, but that's definitely not 90% of them)

Yes I do, I call most of scam victims scammers themselves. Play dumb isn't enough.
Let's say, I come to you and say you give me all your coins and tomorrow I'll give it back in double. Either I have a "BTC magic maker" or I'm a scammer. But it doesn't mean you weren't also trying to scam me by getting 100% profit out of the air.
To not mention Pyramid schemes, where to not be scammed you need to scam...

To other degrees, the scam victim that may not be called scammer himself is that one who was victim of trust-fraud. i.e. You deposit X BTC at my guard, I run away, then yes, you were just trusting me, not expecting a "magical revenue", so you were plain victim and I would be a plain scammer.

[Anonymous]

Evil requires sanction of the victim.

[kiba]

Perhaps, one of you worried folk email mtgox and press for a resolution. Ya know, make a petition, get people to sign it, email it to mtgox.


The problem here is that mtgox have no "term of service" or a transparent dispute resolution process.

[Prze_koles]

I really don't understand this whole discussion at all.

mtgox has 2 choices
a) ignore that thief and give him his money.
b) keep his money if there's evidence of crime.

If he choose a) some people would say that he allowed to steal money, while evidences were clear, he did nothing.
If he choose b) some people (like Atlas) would not trust mtgox anymore, because they know their money can always be blocked.

So it is mtgox' choice what to do, and the community will judge if his choice was good If it wasn't, they will stop using mtgox services.

But yea, $45k is pretty nice pile of cash, so we should get explanation from mtgox or even police involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUAn_dHMnbs

LOL

[kiba]

I really don't understand this whole discussion at all.

mtgox has 2 choices
a) ignore that thief and give him his money.
b) keep his money if there's evidence of crime.

If he choose a) some people would say that he allowed to steal money, while evidences were clear, he did nothing.
If he choose b) some people (like Atlas) would not trust mtgox anymore, because they know their money can always be blocked.

So it is mtgox' choice what to do, and the community will judge if his choice was good If it wasn't, they will stop using mtgox services.

But yea, $45k is pretty nice pile of cash, so we should get explanation from mtgox or even police involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUAn_dHMnbs

LOL

I think the community is asking MtGox to explain the evidence in a timely manner.