mtgox.com has blocked my account with 45 000 USD in it!

[xenon481]

I think I have read nearly every post on this thread, but the two Wagnerian summaries that were just proffered highlighted two things I hadn't reflected on much:

1) the unknown victim who supposedly lost 9000 BTC knew the address to which they were sent (obviously this was in his mtgox summary), and yet the supposed thief took no efforts to launder them but sent them to his own mtgox account directly?

2) the theft took place more than a month ago and was just reported mid-February after the value of bitcoin trebled?  And the "stolen" coins were still in the "thiefs" account???

If this was a theft, this is surely the most incompentent crime in the history of bitcoin.

An alternative theory would be that the "victim" is in fact the real scammer. He sends Baron these ~9,000BTC in exchange for ~$3,000USD. "Victim/Scammer" waits for 1 month, sees that those ~9,000BTC have ~tripled in value and decides to get them back, so he sends mtgox an email falsely claiming that Baron stole the ~9,000BTC.

Again, just an alternate possibility that we currently have no proof with which to confirm/disprove.

[Bruce Wagner]

Please forgive me for being a little slow.

I'm still on...

1) Someone reported his account to be stolen to mt gox with 9000 BTC on it.

How does one's mtgox account "get stollen"?

[BCEmporium]

1) the unknown victim who supposedly lost 9000 BTC knew the address to which they were sent (obviously this was in his mtgox summary), and yet the supposed thief took no efforts to launder them but sent them to his own mtgox account directly?

The address the coins were sent to was not a MtGox address. Baron was using a Bitcoin client. Maybe he assumed, as many do, that Bitcoin is a magical money-laundering machine. However, a link was found between Baron's standalone client and his MtGox account, which allowed MtGox to freeze his account.

From what I see it just hopped once from mtgox to his spare wallet. Could be sort of, «let me put this 9k on mybitcoin» or so.
Anyway, a 3 day long heist?! The "victim" surely has also some reliability issues with his story. Don't you think?
And this guy to put 45K on a bank where he reportedly assaulted a user... this would be probably the dumbest robbery of History! Better than this just go to a bank with a gun and ask the cashier to transfer 1 million bucks to my own checking account on that same bank!

@brucewagner; by getting your password to access it, no?

[sturle]

1) Someone reported his account to be stolen to mt gox with 9000 BTC on it.

How does one's mtgox account "get stollen"?

Weak password cracked by a simple brute force attack.

[Bruce Wagner]

 Just because I don't like what you're doing doesn't make it wrong, and it doesn't mean I can suddenly take your money.

We don't get to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong, nor do we get to rain our own justice down on others arbitrarily.  There has to be an agreed-to process to handle disagreements.  

Could someone please explain that to PayPal?   They've done EXACTLY that, to me... TWICE.

Their email simply said, "There is no appeal."

[BCEmporium]

Bottom line, I hope mtgox doesn't forget to get himself a nice pair of sunglasses to put that "case solved" look in the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeeyWvo1rNg

sorry for the humor... 

[Bruce Wagner]

Request to send passport scan seems to be quite reasonable. Moreover, mtgox may be legally  required to do so. Send the the passport scan than. What's the problem?

If it was my 45k$ on the line I would actually pay a decent local lawyer retainer and fly in to sort things out, than sue for damages. This, of course, might be a problem for those operating under false names, and doing scams.

Exactly.

I know no details about this case, but knowing Jed (mtgox) personally, I'd bet he is being extremely prudent and following the advice of his own legal counsel in all jurisdictions.

It's easy to criticize, but I trust Jed completely.   And I'll tell you this much...  few, if any, people in the Bitcoin community have the fortitude to take on the responsibility he has taken on.    And for what?    Do you think he's getting rich?   Think again.  He is risking everything...  putting his own balls on the chopping block... for you, us....  for the strength and future of Bitcoin.  

He's a man of very few words.   But he's very thoughtful, intelligent,  and I believe him to be extremely fair.  

I can also tell you....   I wouldn't want to be president of the united states, nor in his shoes.

What's a good man to do?   Let known Scammers get away with all that money, and use your site to withdrawal their stollen cash?    And even if you "freeze" their account...  Now what?   You certainly can't keep the money.  Turn it over to the police?

Is now a convenient time to get the government / authorities involved.   Is there ever such a time?    Can you imagine the legal implications and complexities, at this stage in the development and evolution and adoption of Bitcoin?

Does Bitcoin, and MtGox for that matter, need that sort of publicity -- both from a PR and from a legal precedence standpoint?    I think it's premature.  

I'd be willing to bet serious Bitcoin that Jed is doing the best he can to make the wisest, most prudent, decisions he can....   with the entire future of Bitcoin in mind.

Rather than be overly critical,  or cynical, about Jed's intentions.   I suggest we say a prayer... for him to have the strength, the fortitude,  and the wisdom, to make the right decisions....  not only for the parties directly involved, and himself....  but also for the affects they will have on the entire future of Bitcoin.

In short, I bet he really needs our strong loving support right now.

[genjix]

Unfreeze the money. Stop playing policeman. What happens outside mtgox is unrelated. It's a trading platform, nothing more.

[caveden]

1) the unknown victim who supposedly lost 9000 BTC knew the address to which they were sent (obviously this was in his mtgox summary), and yet the supposed thief took no efforts to launder them but sent them to his own mtgox account directly?

2) the theft took place more than a month ago and was just reported mid-February after the value of bitcoin trebled?  And the "stolen" coins were still in the "thiefs" account???

If this was a theft, this is surely the most incompentent crime in the history of bitcoin.

Baron didn't even know what the blockchain is.
It wouldn't surprise me if he thought that bitcoin transfers are 100% untraceable.

[BCEmporium]

@brucewagner,

I see Jed is in a good accounting within the community, but that's more a problem than a solution. Basically seams that all it takes is to have Jed on your side and the community will fall along to whatever you want.

Jed on this intervention remembers me those employees who overcome their duty. They seam to be the best employees but always end up to be the worse. So willing to help others, sooner or later they start to be used by other low-moral standard employee to do his job.
He's thinking and believing to be helping, well... flash news! He isn't! He's putting everything he built at stake. And for what? Nothing... might well be the buyer the scammer as might well be the seller. Who knows? Who can tell? Jed is convinced it was the buyer? What if he is wrong? Will put the money out of his pocket for compensations? Or no compensations policies applies?
And what if it happens again? And if you happen to buy something from someone and got frozen? What complaint policies does he have?

He raises way more questions than answers.

To not mention his even more odd behavior. I wonder where in hell does he thinks to have "investigation secrecy" powers! I see here some folks talking against "enforced-coercive" State powers and yet grants and co-ops for those very same sort and nature of powers to be entrusted in an individual! Surreal! Coherence? Nothing?

Looks like Jed already learn a lesson about PayPal a while ago, now it's time to learn another lesson. Just hope this waves out soon enough without damaging the market too much.

[Bruce Wagner]

Unfreeze the money. Stop playing policeman. What happens outside mtgox is unrelated. It's a trading platform, nothing more.

Forgetting what's right or wrong...

The fact is....   It might not even be legal for him to do that.

We still live in countries with laws, you know.   As others have discovered before us, just because it happens online doesn't make us somehow immune from the laws of the land.   We don't suddenly get to magically REPLACE those laws with our own.  The most we can do is add rules.  We don't get to subtract existing laws (unless we are sovereign king in our own nation).

Probably the number one most dangerous thing any online money exchanger / transaction processor can do --- from a legal standpoint --- is to allow illegal activity to transact business on your site --- once you are made aware of it.

Obviously,  it's a very slippery slope.  And it's always one were the legal authorities ultimately decide the outcome.  I'd bet that that's the legal advice Jed is receiving from his own legal counsel.  

Just because he's not publicly disclosing everything he knows... yet...   Don't go jumping to conclusions...   that he's performing his own "secret investigation".   It very well could be that the police are doing that.   ...and that he's been ordered to say nothing publicly.

Again, I have no knowledge about these things.    But, knowing him personally,  my wild guesses are at least as valid as anyone else's here.

I suggest giving him the benefit of the doubt until all the details come to light.

And yes, they will come to light.   Such investigations, unfortunately, don't happen at the speed of twitter. ....in the real world.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

 Just because I don't like what you're doing doesn't make it wrong, and it doesn't mean I can suddenly take your money.

We don't get to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong, nor do we get to rain our own justice down on others arbitrarily.  There has to be an agreed-to process to handle disagreements.  

Could someone please explain that to PayPal?   They've done EXACTLY that, to me... TWICE.

Their email simply said, "There is no appeal."

Fuck paypal (in eye, because other places may be pleasant), paypal is an evil bitch.

http://www.paypalsucks.com/
http://www.aboutpaypal.org/

[breandan81]

That doesn't help much when you are the merchant.

[Bruce Wagner]

Interesting idea though. Thanks.  PayPal has scammed many people I know --- even overdrawing their attached Savings accounts before seizing all their PayPal money -- for no reason whatsoever.

[BCEmporium]

I've to say this topic is addictive!
As it looks now many of you think I'm a reservoir dog of some kind... chill out! I don't take things to that personal level, nor my face turns red in front of the screen or my eyes flash.  

Somehow, however, this one becomes the most interesting topic! Paypal, morality, immorality, duties, rights, philosophy, scams, counter-scams... all in 20 hallucinating pages over 45K frozen USD  

[Bruce Wagner]

By the way, while we're playing judge & jury....   It's very obvious that "Baron" is the thief.
Those three transactions, over three days, are not the transactions of 9000 BTC purchase over IRC.  They're freaking odd number amounts.  Why would a 9000 BTC sale be divided up into three odd amounts over three days!?  Even if they were to be divided for some mysterious reason, they'd be:  3000, 3000, and 3000.  Or to be smarter, 3000.01 and 3000.02 and 3000.03

Those three consecutive transactions are equal to the $1000 daily withdrawal limit that mtgox has in place.   I bet anything, if you look back to those dates, those amounts match exactly the US$1000 equivalent value in Bitcoin ON THAT DATE. And those are the actual withdrawals he made from the victim's mtgox account -- over a three day period.

We, in this forum, are not stupid.

Baron is stupid.   ...and a stupid thief, in my opinion.

If he were really a big time high stakes "trader", then he'd be smart enough to have a basic clue about how Bitcoin works.   ....or at least be able to hire someone who's less stupid than he is himself.

Ask yourself:   If your $45,000 funds were blocked, what would you do?   If you were innocent ... you would not do what wanna-dream-of-being-a-Baron has done.  If you were guilty & without shame & dumb as a thumbtack, you'd do exactly what Baron has done --- from beginning to end.

I suggest tracking the IP address Baron is posting from and turning that over to the police as well.     Maybe he can continue his trading career behind bars.

[BCEmporium]

bruce,

You got it all wrong, we're not playing judge & juri; mtgox is, plus playing also police, investigator and executioner (an all-in-one guy).
We've nobody "behind bars", nobody with "assets frozen" on our expense. We discuss the case and it's consequences. It's different.

Baron sounds too stupid to be a thief too. And it seams to be the only point where's coherent so far; being naive.
And what sort of heist goes on for 3 days without the notice of the owner?

And why wasn't the trade carried out on mtgox if the coins were there? Evade market fares may be a more solid argument for Jed than "I'm doing a part-time as CSI".

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

There is a process to handle disagreements with paypal. You do a chargeback via your bank/cc if it does not help you file small claim with the bank/cc company and paypal as defendants and see how quickly they fold. Which, they will as soon as they see that you are not bluffing.

That's theory.
And theory != Practice.

The practice says: Paypal is one huge semi-banking scam, don't use it.

[Anonymous]

bruce,

You got it all wrong, we're not playing judge & juri; mtgox is, plus playing also police, investigator and executioner (an all-in-one guy).
We've nobody "behind bars", nobody with "assets frozen" on our expense. We discuss the case and it's consequences. It's different.

Baron sounds too stupid to be a thief too. And it seams to be the only point where's coherent so far; being naive.
And what sort of heist goes on for 3 days without the notice of the owner?

And why wasn't the trade carried out on mtgox if the coins were there? Evade market fares may be a more solid argument for Jed than "I'm doing a part-time as CSI".

This is all conjecture. Perhaps a third party arbitrator / mediator or adjudicator is called for here that both mt gox and baron agree to abide by if they make a decision.  For the sake of further conjecture this is the best way forward in a fair manner and is how things are done in an anarchic situation like this.

To me the only victim here is mt gox who had to do his best while for all we know the situation was a setup to cast doubt on his reputation. The economic hitmen are well known for these things.

Now who will step up and offer to adjudicate and is seen as neutral ?

[TheKoziTwo]

An alternative theory would be that the "victim" is in fact the real scammer. He sends Baron these ~9,000BTC in exchange for ~$3,000USD. "Victim/Scammer" waits for 1 month, sees that those ~9,000BTC have ~tripled in value and decides to get them back, so he sends mtgox an email falsely claiming that Baron stole the ~9,000BTC.

Again, just an alternate possibility that we currently have no proof with which to confirm/disprove.

Victim doesn't wait one month, he sends e-mail on Jan 9th, 2011. That's the same day as last transfer. Based on this we can assume that the victim didn't access his account for about 2-3 days and conclude this theory false.

2011-01-07 02:49:29 - 3134.8 BTC (in) ---> From scammer
2011-01-08 10:27:16 - 3174.6 BTC (in) ---> From scammer
2011-01-09 10:47:30 - 3096.9 BTC (in) ---> From scammer
2011-01-09 11:36:00 - Victim sends an e-mail to mtgox.

1) the unknown victim who supposedly lost 9000 BTC knew the address to which they were sent (obviously this was in his mtgox summary), and yet the supposed thief took no efforts to launder them but sent them to his own mtgox account directly?

Nope, read: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg54637#msg54637

2) the theft took place more than a month ago and was just reported mid-February after the value of bitcoin trebled?  And the "stolen" coins were still in the "thiefs" account???

Wrong, it was reported on January 9th 2011 (victim sent mtgox an e-mail on this day). An investigation as been going on since then by mtgox and on February 13th he froze Barons account. Why such a long time before account frozen? I don't know. We can speculate that mtgox used the honeypot technique waiting for Baron to deposit so that he could freeze funds and potentially return it to victim.

Also I think the most important proof that Baron was scamming currently is that he first said "1 trade on IRC", but later (after proof of 3 transactions) changes the story to "trades was going on for 5 days", and despite spending 5 days on the IRC channel cannot remember nick, "scammers nick" og even channel name. And to top it all off, the logs of bitcoin-btc is available and baron could easily read logs for January 7th-January 9th and instantly remember his nick. Why won't he?