mtgox.com has blocked my account with 45 000 USD in it!

[wb3]

So mtgox believes there was a "crime" has some untested proof and unilaterally freezes an account. mtgox as said earlier is not an unknown perona.

I don't know about others, but "businesses" that unilaterally conduct a trial, hold themselves as jury, and award themselves a verdict, does seem up and up.

But lets assume: MtGox is correct in everything, there was an exploit. Well, in that case, to bad the system should have been better. MtGox and others should eat the losses and fix it. Not try to provide self help. "Self Help" always leads to bad consequences.

Now, MtGox is trying to Identify people with passport scans, phone calls, etc...  Starting to sound like an IRL Bank.

I don't know about others, but if Mtgox was to be successful in this BitCoin business giving the whole anonymity of the system, he just lost alot of customers.

Try to protect other customers from losses by taking money from someone else is not fair, even with proof.

But that absolute last thing you would want to provide is "Proof".  Because if you can identify anonymous transactions to the person, this whole BitCoin experiment just "Failed".  

[1713539008]

1713539008

[1713539008]

1713539008

[Nefario]

So mtgox believes there was a "crime" has some untested proof and unilaterally freezes an account. mtgox as said earlier is not an unknown perona.

I don't know about others, but "businesses" that unilaterally conduct a trial, hold themselves as jury, and award themselves a verdict, does seem up and up.

But lets assume: MtGox is correct in everything, there was an exploit. Well, in that case, to bad the system should have been better. MtGox and others should eat the losses and fix it. Not try to provide self help. "Self Help" always leads to bad consequences.

Now, MtGox is trying to Identify people with passport scans, phone calls, etc...  Starting to sound like an IRL Bank.

I don't know about others, but if Mtgox was to be successful in this BitCoin business giving the whole anonymity of the system, he just lost alot of customers.

Try to protect other customers from losses by taking money from someone else is not fair, even with proof.

But that absolute last thing you would want to provide is "Proof".  Because if you can identify anonymous transactions to the person, this whole BitCoin experiment just "Failed".  

Wow you're wrong.

Firstly mtgox is a private business, not god or the president. He isn't taking your rights. He's got a platform, if you use it then he's in charge. You are free not to use it of course.

Secondly the point of bitcoin is not it being anonymous (that's just a great side-effect if you're careful) but to be a p2p currency that is limited in supply.

[Anonymous]

So mtgox believes there was a "crime" has some untested proof and unilaterally freezes an account. mtgox as said earlier is not an unknown perona.

I don't know about others, but "businesses" that unilaterally conduct a trial, hold themselves as jury, and award themselves a verdict, does seem up and up.

But lets assume: MtGox is correct in everything, there was an exploit. Well, in that case, to bad the system should have been better. MtGox and others should eat the losses and fix it. Not try to provide self help. "Self Help" always leads to bad consequences.

Now, MtGox is trying to Identify people with passport scans, phone calls, etc...  Starting to sound like an IRL Bank.

I don't know about others, but if Mtgox was to be successful in this BitCoin business giving the whole anonymity of the system, he just lost alot of customers.

Try to protect other customers from losses by taking money from someone else is not fair, even with proof.

But that absolute last thing you would want to provide is "Proof".  Because if you can identify anonymous transactions to the person, this whole BitCoin experiment just "Failed".  

Wow you're wrong.

He's only maintaining his status quo.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

So mtgox believes there was a "crime" has some untested proof and unilaterally freezes an account. mtgox as said earlier is not an unknown perona.

I don't know about others, but "businesses" that unilaterally conduct a trial, hold themselves as jury, and award themselves a verdict, does seem up and up.
(...)

But that absolute last thing you would want to provide is "Proof".  Because if you can identify anonymous transactions to the person, this whole BitCoin experiment just "Failed".  

Sorry, but for what we know, with so few posts you can be Baron's alter ego, so i don't think I'm going to listen to your opinion on the topic at all.

[Nefario]

He's only maintaining his status quo.

Status quo is wrong.

[wb3]

Wow you're wrong.

Firstly mtgox is a private business, not god or the president. He isn't taking your rights. He's got a platform, if you use it then he's in charge. You are free not to use it of course.

Secondly the point of bitcoin is not it being anonymous (that's just a great side-effect if you're careful) but to be a p2p currency that is limited in supply.

I don't mind being wrong. But lets not pretend these are kids games. Real People are involved.

So, MtGox is a "Business", a "Business" that operates in the U.S. and conducts financial transactions with Legal Tendered U.S. Currency, and there has been a dispute. Baron claims one thing and MtGox another acting as a Business. This dispute involves 45,000USD. 

Well if the FED's haven't already knocked on your door, they will. Or maybe they already have. Hmm... But lets assume its all legit.

Barron want some advice and work this out legally. Hire a Lawyer in the U.S., create a business where ever you are from, have that business hire a Lawyer (do a free consult, he might take it on contingency) here in the U.S. and then sue. Let the court work it out. BTW by working through your business your anonymity can be protected under Attorney Client privileges.  Just appoint a representative (not You) as the go between.  Then "sue" MtGox. 

If that doesn't work, you can file a complaint with the AG (Attorney General) and report a crime. (Bet no one wants that).

If you want to play like a Business, then the same rules apply. Laws, Lawyers, Lawsuits, Police, Courts, etc....  Because you don't get to take someone's money, and just say its OK, it was the other guys fault. You Especially don't do that in the United States.

And this is great example of what will happen when someone tries to provide an OutProxy to the Real World (or BitCoin Exchange). If you can't eat the losses, people will be knocking on the door or worse. As it is Baron sounds like a low level scammer, probably Nigerian. But if this was the Russian's, this thread wouldn't even have occurred. They would have your Family until they get their money back.

On anonymity, if BitCoin provides no anonymity during a currency xchange why use it.  Prepaid Visa, does the same and provides a level of anonymity (if you try).  And you will have all the protections of a real Money account.

If the experiment was to see if the currency would work as a legit currency, ... a there is no physical form to the money, it will fail.  No the only attraction to the currency is anonymity and giving to the Man. 

However, it is a great system for Wire to Wire transfers that bypass all existing tracking, provides anonymity, is hard to attack or fake.

Western Union v2  coming to a store near you.

[BCEmporium]

This topic deserves Duracell brand (and it lasts... and it lasts...)

 

[Nefario]

The baron signed up to mtgox and used his service without mtgox providing any terms or conditions. And not just for a little but $45k.

mtgox has not "taken" the barons money, it's not like it's gone somewhere else. It's been frozen, and the account and account owner are being investigated by mtgox. mtgox has asked for something not just reasonable, but probably required by law in such situations, that is for copies of identification.

I don't think things are so bad in the U.S. that scammers are now able to sue the people who they failed to scam.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

The baron signed up to mtgox and used his service without mtgox providing any terms or conditions. And not just for a little but $45k.

mtgox has not "taken" the barons money, it's not like it's gone somewhere else. It's been frozen, and the account and account owner are being investigated by mtgox. mtgox has asked for something not just reasonable, but probably required by law in such situations, that is for copies of identification.

I don't think things are so bad in the U.S. that scammers are now able to sue the people who they failed to scam.

It would really be cool if you avoided discussing with possible Baron's alter ego... This is only causing unnecessary havoc.
I am completely ignoring his posts on the case.

--------
Also i concur that this thread definately deserves a lockdown.

[Nefario]

I don't think he's his alter ego, his English is so much better than the barons, although that could be part of the ruse.

On a more serious note I just think he's someone with more....of a status quo mindset.

[BCEmporium]

I don't think things are so bad in the U.S. that scammers are now able to sue the people who they failed to scam.

Think again...

[wb3]

The baron signed up to mtgox and used his service without mtgox providing any terms or conditions. And not just for a little but $45k.

mtgox has not "taken" the barons money, it's not like it's gone somewhere else. It's been frozen, and the account and account owner are being investigated by mtgox. mtgox has asked for something not just reasonable, but probably required by law in such situations, that is for copies of identification.

I don't think things are so bad in the U.S. that scammers are now able to sue the people who they failed to scam.

Good Points,

My problem is that it is MtGox that decided, that it is a scam. And who is MtGox to investigate?  What prevents him from finding shady transactions and freezing accounts. This will turn into finding drug money in the back of a car. You take it because no one will report it to the police. It is True, but you better hope they never find you.

But if MtGox believes a crime took place and is acting as a legitimate business, Did he report the Crime to the authorities?

If the answer is yes, provide the police report number, and voila everyone is happy. But I bet his "business" fails.

And Scammers sue people all the time, even the ones they fail to scam.  Insurance Fraud, (accidents on purpose) etc....

Scammers have the same rights until proved to be scamming. Proved in a court of law.  

See the problems here :;:  

[BCEmporium]

Yes, to this I agree, things like this:

and the account and account owner are being investigated by mtgox.

are way funny! 

Like I said... 20 pages ago(?!)... too much CSI. Part-time Horatio Caine. 

[kiba]

Good Points,

My problem is that it is MtGox that decided, that it is a scam. And who is MtGox to investigate?  What prevents him from finding shady transactions and freezing accounts. This will turn into finding drug money in the back of a car. You take it because no one will report it to the police. It is True, but you better hope they never find you.

But if MtGox believes a crime took place and is acting as a legitimate business, Did he report the Crime to the authorities?

If the answer is yes, provide the police report number, and voila everyone is happy. But I bet his "business" fails.

And Scammers sue people all the time, even the ones they fail to scam.  Insurance Fraud, (accidents on purpose) etc....

Scammers have the same rights until proved to be scamming. Proved in a court of law.  

See the problems here :;:  

Some people just don't want to have anything to do with the government, scam or no scam. 

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

I don't think things are so bad in the U.S. that scammers are now able to sue the people who they failed to scam.

Think again...

USA has not been a normal country for some time now.

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/04/06/02/2222258.shtml?tid=109&tid=155&tid=187&tid=99
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=194252

The third one actually seems like Onion News, this time for real !

[ronaldmaustin]

The baron signed up to mtgox and used his service without mtgox providing any terms or conditions. And not just for a little but $45k.

So if someone entrusts $45,000 to me without my providing them "terms or conditions" it is fair to hold their money indefinitely?  It has been a few weeks now.

mtgox has not "taken" the barons money, it's not like it's gone somewhere else. It's been frozen, and the account and account owner are being investigated by mtgox. mtgox has asked for something not just reasonable, but probably required by law in such situations, that is for copies of identification.

Define "taken".  The money does not have to go anywhere else.  If the money indefinitely stays with MtGox it is, by any definition, taken.  What does "investigated by Mtgox" mean, exactly?  I think MtGox should say precisely what the impasse is, for example, tell us that he will refund the money when the OP mails a photocopy of his passport.  Then the OP should respond as to why he cannot or will not do that.  Then we can decide, not who is right or wrong, but whether we think our money is safe.  If MtGox has already done this, my sincerest apology in advance.  I just cannot read 60+ pages of posts.  And my question remains, if the $45k was scammed from MtGox customers in the first place, how was that done and what can we all do to protect our money against the scams?

It is a shame this has devolved into Pro-MtGox vs. Anti-MtGox rather than a search for answers as to what is going on.

EDIT (Shortly after this post, I went to my account on MtGox, where my username is the same.  I received the message "Forbidden You don't have permission to access / on this server. Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat) Server at mtgox.com Port 443"  This is an indication I can connect, but access has been denied.  I then tried Tor to connect from various other IP addresses and connected just fine.  It appears my home IP address has intentionally blocked from accessing the site.  I speculate, without concluding, that my comments here calling for transparency have me banned.  Am I "under investigation" myself for my comments? I will keep you all posted.)

[ronaldmaustin]

TheKoziTwo: I checked the IRC logs. There is nothing in there about this trade.

Here is my post for a 3rd time since it keeps getting buried and people keep asking why I haven't posted.

Here is a more complete rundown of what happened with the baron account.
Person A had their account compromised by Person B.
Day1: Person B sent ~3000BTC (the mtgox $1000 a day limit at the time) to an address owned by baron.
Day2: Person B sent ~3000BTC (the mtgox $1000 a day limit at the time) to an address owned by baron.
Day3: Person B sent ~3000BTC (the mtgox $1000 a day limit at the time) to an address owned by baron.
Day4: Person A logs into their account and notices the missing BTC. They change their password and contact me about the theft.
DayX: Person B finds an exploit in my LR code and manages to send himself a good deal of LR from the site.
DayY: Person B steals money from 2 other mtgox accounts after compromising them with a dictionary attack. This is discussed elsewhere.

I have talked to Person A on the phone extensively both before and after the theft.  He had much more in his account than what was stolen.

baron claims that he bought the BTC in question from someone on IRC with Liberty Reserve (LR). He hasn’t been able to provide any evidence of this transfer. I see nothing even close in the IRC logs of bitcoin-otc about this transfer.
To believe baron’s story we have to believe:
1) A thief would trust a random person on IRC they have never met before and no one else on the channel knows to send them $3000.
2) The thief would transfer directly from mtgox to the buyer before knowing how much BTC they would end up stealing from mtgox.
3) baron can’t remember his nick, the thief’s nick, or the IRC channel that was used for the trade.
4) baron can no longer find the record of the LR transaction.
5) baron is unable to talk to me on the phone because according to him he is mute.

baron also refuses to provide proof of who he is or where he lives.

We are left having to assume that baron is in fact person B. baron’s account on mtgox holds less than the sum of theft by person B.


As I have said previously we don’t want to be the bitcoin police and this will hopefully not be necessary in the future since we have fixed these security issues that allowed Person B to steal from us and other users in the first place.

Thank you.  I stand corrected.  But I'd still like to know why my own access is blocked.  Also, perhaps your customer who lost money and will likely get it back from you should come on here and back all of this up.  As long as I'm satisfied that the person will be getting his money back then I can drop the issue.  The evidence suggests Baron is clearly a thief.  Even in the absence of verification of your version of events, Baron's own admission that he will not send identification requested and cannot talk because he is mute is highly suspect and the burden of proof shifts back to Baron at this point.  And, incidentally, you really need to get on top of this kind of thing before it spins out of control like it has.  Start a thread in the main forum indicating what happened and what you are doing to help your customer in a case of fraud.  It will turn you from a suspect to a hero instantly.

[Baron]

TheKoziTwo: I checked the IRC logs. There is nothing in there about this trade.

Here is my post for a 3rd time since it keeps getting buried and people keep asking why I haven't posted.

Here is a more complete rundown of what happened with the baron account.
Person A had their account compromised by Person B.
Day1: Person B sent ~3000BTC (the mtgox $1000 a day limit at the time) to an address owned by baron.
Day2: Person B sent ~3000BTC (the mtgox $1000 a day limit at the time) to an address owned by baron.
Day3: Person B sent ~3000BTC (the mtgox $1000 a day limit at the time) to an address owned by baron.
Day4: Person A logs into their account and notices the missing BTC. They change their password and contact me about the theft.
DayX: Person B finds an exploit in my LR code and manages to send himself a good deal of LR from the site.
DayY: Person B steals money from 2 other mtgox accounts after compromising them with a dictionary attack. This is discussed elsewhere.

I have talked to Person A on the phone extensively both before and after the theft.  He had much more in his account than what was stolen.

baron claims that he bought the BTC in question from someone on IRC with Liberty Reserve (LR). He hasn’t been able to provide any evidence of this transfer. I see nothing even close in the IRC logs of bitcoin-otc about this transfer.
To believe baron’s story we have to believe:
1) A thief would trust a random person on IRC they have never met before and no one else on the channel knows to send them $3000.
2) The thief would transfer directly from mtgox to the buyer before knowing how much BTC they would end up stealing from mtgox.
3) baron can’t remember his nick, the thief’s nick, or the IRC channel that was used for the trade.
4) baron can no longer find the record of the LR transaction.
5) baron is unable to talk to me on the phone because according to him he is mute.

baron also refuses to provide proof of who he is or where he lives.

We are left having to assume that baron is in fact person B. baron’s account on mtgox holds less than the sum of theft by person B.


As I have said previously we don’t want to be the bitcoin police and this will hopefully not be necessary in the future since we have fixed these security issues that allowed Person B to steal from us and other users in the first place.

Thank you.  I stand corrected.  But I'd still like to know why my own access is blocked.  Also, perhaps your customer who lost money and will likely get it back from you should come on here and back all of this up.  As long as I'm satisfied that the person will be getting his money back then I can drop the issue.  The evidence suggests Baron is clearly a thief.  Even in the absence of verification of your version of events, Baron's own admission that he will not send identification requested and cannot talk because he is mute is highly suspect and the burden of proof shifts back to Baron at this point.  And, incidentally, you really need to get on top of this kind of thing before it spins out of control like it has.  Start a thread in the main forum indicating what happened and what you are doing to help your customer in a case of fraud.  It will turn you from a suspect to a hero instantly.

I am not Thief. mtgox.com is lying to you .mtgox.com saying that I hacked his website and add money to my mtgox.com account, but it's not true. I deposited money using liberty reserve account.

My liberty reserve history:
01/07/2011 02:12    52722343       U8227430 (xMtGox)    - $28,616.00    $0.00    $0.61    Hide Merchant Reference: 1336    Memo: MtGox.com Funding
01/07/2011 02:12    52722317       U8227430 (xMtGox)    - $30,000.00    $0.00    $28,616.61    Hide Merchant Reference: 1336    Memo: MtGox.com Funding
01/07/2011 01:51    52721818       U8227430 (xMtGox)    - $16,000.00    $0.00    $58,616.61    Hide Merchant Reference: 1336    Memo: MtGox.com Funding


He did not show any evidences.

How you must be stupid ,to believe in man(mtgox.com) who don't shows evidences? Don't goes to police, and don't giving me his contacts?

He stole that money from me, and now moving to new server to hide evidences (servers logs and etc )!

I repeat: I sent my ID scan to mtgox.com. Other ID documents I am ready to send when he goes to police!



And Yes I have that fucking  mute disorder, so I can't talk on phone with him. I requested from him to give me his skype nick to talk online, he refuses! 

Until now I don't received from him any his contacts. I asked him 2 times.  So what fuck he is hiding? But there is not problem, I will get his contacts in other ways.

TheKoziTwo write: TheKoziTwo: I checked the IRC logs. There is nothing in there about this trade. 
There may be that IRC servers not loging private chats.

[wb3]

Bah-oh Ne, Baron

It seems the oyibo's don't believe you. Not that it is anyone's business, but what in the heck were you thinking? $45,000 USD 

Come On Bro, 

How is Lagos, Naija these days?  The Oil "Business" still good 

It will work itself out. We are talking $45,000 USD  That amount won't be forgot. Not by MtGox, not by you, and I am sure by now, not the IRS. MtGox will probably be audited this year, the G-Men are looking for extra money since the world went broke.

If that wasn't your money you lost, sorry ahead of time.  And if MtGox did do something, sorry for him too.

Anyways, I'm comin'


Yea, fellow board members. I have been around the block on this little planet of ours.  Ca Va

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

I am not Thief. mtgox.com is lying to you .mtgox.com saying that I hacked his website and add money to my mtgox.com account, but it's not true. I deposited money using liberty reserve account.

My liberty reserve history:
01/07/2011 02:12    52722343       U8227430 (xMtGox)    - $28,616.00    $0.00    $0.61    Hide Merchant Reference: 1336    Memo: MtGox.com Funding
01/07/2011 02:12    52722317       U8227430 (xMtGox)    - $30,000.00    $0.00    $28,616.61    Hide Merchant Reference: 1336    Memo: MtGox.com Funding
01/07/2011 01:51    52721818       U8227430 (xMtGox)    - $16,000.00    $0.00    $58,616.61    Hide Merchant Reference: 1336    Memo: MtGox.com Funding


He did not show any evidences.

How you must be stupid ,to believe in man(mtgox.com) who don't shows evidences? Don't goes to police, and don't giving me his contacts?

He stole that money from me, and now moving to new server to hide evidences (servers logs and etc )!

I repeat: I sent my ID scan to mtgox.com. Other ID documents I am ready to send when he goes to police!



And Yes I have that fucking  mute disorder, so I can't talk on phone with him. I requested from him to give me his skype nick to talk online, he refuses!  

Until now I don't received from him any his contacts. I asked him 2 times.  So what fuck he is hiding? But there is not problem, I will get his contacts in other ways.

TheKoziTwo write: TheKoziTwo: I checked the IRC logs. There is nothing in there about this trade.  
There may be that IRC servers not loging private chats.

That cheap sociotechnics of yours might work on somebody, but they will not work on me.
I am very good on detecting manipulation and you are a manipulative lying bastard.

If you don't like it, shut up & go to court. But of course you won't because you're nothing more than nigerian-style scammer bitch.

----
This thread should be closed anyway, so you cannot cause any more havoc & decrease people's trust in mtgox's.