bitcoin-trader.biz

[crazyivan]

why don't they just show the alegeded trades they do?


btw: the more money you use to arbitrage the less you gain because of slippage

Slippage? What s this gotta do with the amount of money used in arbitrage? The price can change anytime and one can lose arbitrage opportunities, regardless of the amount used to trade.

IMO, as the market stabilizes, there will be less and less arbitrage opportunities since these primarily blossom during periods of high volatility. However, I think we have at least one more year until this takes place if not longer. This recent period of volatility we are in at this moment is a perfect proof of that. No bad news, nothing on the surface causing price movements and still the price changes almost 10% during 2 days. Also, more exchanges with sufficient liquidity would contribute to arbitrage opportunities even more and decentralize trading process at the same time, which is step in the right direction.  

[capoeira]

btw: the more money you use to arbitrage the less you gain because of slippage

For my understanding, could you explain this further?

the page says it live from arbitrage between alts right? there is not much liquidity, so the amount you can play is very limited

[varChar]

I dont get what the negative part could be.
What happens if they dont profit each day, will that minus be taken from my earlier profits or from my share?

What is the loosing part of this? (this is not the mining Im woundering over)

[tmfp]

Arbitrage is supposed to be pretty much risk free, that's the whole point of it.
Being exposed to a trading loss means that one leg of the arbitrage is being opened or closed at a different time to the other, so effectively they would be "pair" day trading, speculating that the difference between two markets would increase/decrease in their favour over the course of a trading period.
That's not arbitrage, that's conservative day trading, which is presumably why they refer to a 3% stop loss.

On their FB site they say they have $2,000,000 available for trading, so I guess that means they have to give a return on that $2m whether or not they use it all. They also have to pay their overhead.
0.5% per day on $2m is $10,000, plus somewhere I think I have read they take 20% for overhead, so that means to return 0.5% they need to gross $12,000, to return 1% per day gross trading profit $24,000 etc.
Say they can make a $2 per BTc inter exchange arbitrage nett profit after spread and finance costs, that would require a daily trading volume of 12,000 Bitcoins, turning over their $2m about four times, in order to return 1%.

[Rannasha]

Arbitrage is supposed to be pretty much risk free, that's the whole point of it.
Being exposed to a trading loss means that one leg of the arbitrage is being opened or closed at a different time to the other, so effectively they would be "pair" day trading, speculating that the difference between two markets would increase/decrease in their favour over the course of a trading period.
That's not arbitrage, that's conservative day trading, which is presumably why they refer to a 3% stop loss.

On their FB site they say they have $2,000,000 available for trading, so I guess that means they have to give a return on that $2m whether or not they use it all. They also have to pay their overhead.
0.5% per day on $2m is $10,000, plus somewhere I think I have read they take 20% for overhead, so that means to return 0.5% they need to gross $12,000, to return 1% per day gross trading profit $24,000 etc.
Say they can make a $2 per BTc inter exchange arbitrage nett profit after spread and finance costs, that would require a daily trading volume of 12,000 Bitcoins, turning over their $2m about four times, in order to return 1%.

Except that this doesn't happen, because exchange-rate differences tend to be one-sided for most of the time, that is exchange A is cheaper than exchange B almost all the time and the difference rarely reverses. That means that to trade effectively, you keep your coins on B, dollars on A, perform trades and then pump the coins and dollars around. But this means having to go through the international wire-transfer system (twice, since you can't transfer directly from exchange to exchange), which takes many days. That means that when you operate efficiently, most of your dollars are stuck in transit somewhere. Yet these are still investor-dollars that need to share in the profits.

Add to that the fact that Bitcoin-Trader claims to only trade during business hours, which means that they don't automate their trades. Which is, quite frankly, absurd. Arbitrage is a very simple technique that is easy to develop automated tools for that can run 24/7. Now they're supposedly missing out on 75% of the opportunities (40 hours of trading on a 168 hour week).

These things make it all the more obvious that BT is just another Ponzi-scheme. The 120 day lockin period gives them more stability than other Ponzi schemes in the sense that they have plenty of early warning of when potential large withdrawals may come. But it's a Ponzi scheme nonetheless. Sooner or later it will collapse and those that haven't withdrawn their money by then will be left empty-handed.

Mark my words.

[capoeira]

well, it should be possible for them to document at least some of their trades no?

[Rannasha]

well, it should be possible for them to document at least some of their trades no?

There are no trades.

[rammy2k2]

someone asked that on FB too

[capoeira]

well, it should be possible for them to document at least some of their trades no?

There are no trades.

That's the impression that they should PROOF it's wrong

[Grinder]

That's the impression that they should PROOF it's wrong

If they could they would have done it a long time ago, but they know that if they try to be too specific in their lies they will be exposed by people who actually know the business. Instead they settle for those who will continue to believe in them and send them money as long as there is no definitive evidence to prove they are a scam.

[Illutian]

Well, it looks like in August we'll know.

Either the proof will be delivered

-or-

The site will 404


sigh would be sweet if it turned out to be legit.

....So tired of wearing 'money' as a leash.

[BombaUcigasa]

Ultimate unlimited ponzi scheme (please do not do this):
- accept time-locked principal investments
- limit daily and user investments to prevent stacked payouts
- promise small percentage to protect against rapid termination
- provide about 1% of total holdings as "payment' daily
- insert 150 days a year of no show to fill in a lazy table cell
- add market variation or some other randomization to payouts
- collect and do not compound profits (don't explain why)
- hope that people reinvest their payout at term (can't pop the ponzi)
- hope that people forget/die and don't claim their profits
- do not perform any audits or insights into the operation
- try to appear legitimate by offshore and social media profiles

Tell me how long one could sustain such a system? And how can someone figure out if it's a ponzi or not?

[msarro]

Arbitrage is supposed to be pretty much risk free, that's the whole point of it.
Being exposed to a trading loss means that one leg of the arbitrage is being opened or closed at a different time to the other, so effectively they would be "pair" day trading, speculating that the difference between two markets would increase/decrease in their favour over the course of a trading period.
That's not arbitrage, that's conservative day trading, which is presumably why they refer to a 3% stop loss.

FYI, maybe I'm correct about this, but for folks who are doing actual arbitrage, I'd take the 3% stop loss as a slightly-incorrect way of saying that on any particular arbitrage opportunity, they never commit more than 3% of current assets. That way if it goes south, that's all they've exposed to a potential loss. Sort of like the forex trading advice that you never commit more than 2% of your total assets to a particular trade unless you REALLY know what you're doing. If it goes completely sour, you can always say you've still got everything else. I've tried to get more info from BT if that's what they meant, but I think they stop responding to anything I ask.

[capoeira]

And how can someone figure out if it's a ponzi or not?

generaly, if it looks like a ponzi, smells like a ponzi and it's saying but not proofing it's not a ponzi, it is a ponzi

[BombaUcigasa]

And how can someone figure out if it's a ponzi or not?

generaly, if it looks like a ponzi, smells like a ponzi and it's saying but not proofing it's not a ponzi, it is a ponzi

I'm afraid my smell sense does not work over the TCP/IP. Is there a way to prove that an authentic investment operation is not a ponzi that can't be demonstrated by a ponzi?

[capoeira]

And how can someone figure out if it's a ponzi or not?

generaly, if it looks like a ponzi, smells like a ponzi and it's saying but not proofing it's not a ponzi, it is a ponzi

I'm afraid my smell sense does not work over the TCP/IP. Is there a way to prove that an authentic investment operation is not a ponzi that can't be demonstrated by a ponzi?

I allready said how: showing past operations

[BombaUcigasa]

And how can someone figure out if it's a ponzi or not?

generaly, if it looks like a ponzi, smells like a ponzi and it's saying but not proofing it's not a ponzi, it is a ponzi

I'm afraid my smell sense does not work over the TCP/IP. Is there a way to prove that an authentic investment operation is not a ponzi that can't be demonstrated by a ponzi?

I allready said how: showing past operations

So basically they need to show like a day's worth of trades from which their daily profit number comes from? That should be convincing enough to consider it a non-ponzi?

[capoeira]

And how can someone figure out if it's a ponzi or not?

generaly, if it looks like a ponzi, smells like a ponzi and it's saying but not proofing it's not a ponzi, it is a ponzi

I'm afraid my smell sense does not work over the TCP/IP. Is there a way to prove that an authentic investment operation is not a ponzi that can't be demonstrated by a ponzi?

I allready said how: showing past operations

So basically they need to show like a day's worth of trades from which their daily profit number comes from? That should be convincing enough to consider it a non-ponzi?

I think so; if they are not fakable.
what are others thinking?

[Illutian]

A "New York's BitLicense" -like license would go a long way to proving legitimacy, too.

Technically speaking, BT is a money exchange.

...from my understanding of the guidelines. Any company engaging in converting virtual currency to "real-world" currency is designated a 'Money Exchange Service'.

I'm pretty sure the UK, which is where I recall them being HQ-ed in (but incorporated in Panama), has similar Anti-money Laundering laws.

[rhader]

Here is my weekly update. In case others havn't read my previous post on this thread, I invested 4 BTC a week ago based off this threads general feelings towards bitcoin-trader.biz

So far I've earned around $100 USD in 5 week days. I bought 136 trading funds. Each day the earnings are posted. I've submitted 1 support ticket and the response was within the day, very clear and concise. I've used $60 USD to purchase 3 addition trading funds (now sitting at 139) and the rest I've deposited into my blockchain wallet. Very easy to do both. Both withdraws went through without a hitch. My funds expire Nov. 19-23, 2014. I will keep this thread updated.

If you end up deciding to take the risk and invest a few BTC please remember to only invest that which you can afford to lose. This is speculative, but based off past members of this fund in this thread, it seems that these guys, up to now at least, do cash out.

If anyone is feeling generous feel free to sign up with my referral
https://bitcoin-trader.biz/?ref=greengoose

Ill keep the thread updated weekly, thank you.