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Author Topic: CASASCIUS PHYSICAL BITCOIN - In Stock Now! (pic)  (Read 118915 times)
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Mike Caldwell
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The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)


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January 15, 2014, 04:01:07 AM
 #961

Sad thing it has to be like that. The pre funded coins had some sort of credibility. Now you can not know for sure if those coins are safe...

AFAIK the coins were never pre-funded. The funds were always added after purchasers received their coins. This is no different; it's just you funding them upon receipt instead of Mike funding them.

To be fair, there's a difference between an unfunded coin that I intend to fund with the original buyer's funds on hand but just haven't done so yet, and an unfunded coin that I explicitly have no intention to fund.

All else equal, one's likely to be considered worth 1BTC more than the other.

There are some advantages to the latter.  For example, I don't have to force users to use expensive shipping options to keep a grip on unfunded coins making it into the wild.  If self-fund coins get lost, the loss is limited to the physical coins that got lost, and not any BTC.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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January 15, 2014, 04:08:25 AM
 #962

i love the idea of being able to ship unfunded coins

back when these were 15 to even 100 dollars i thought nothing of taping 6 to cardboard and shipping across the country first class..never had a package go lost or take more then 5 days that i can remember even with several to Alaska and Hawaii

now for 6 coins we're talking highly insured express or registered mail


this is more so for the "funded" coins you will be selling in person...
have you ever considered making a system where a user pays the full 55btc (just an example) for 50 1s you do NOT fund them immediately but let the buyer request them in batches of 5 or something to be funded after being sold so it gives time for shipping

not sure how you would handle proof of them getting lost and refunding / not funding an otherwise assumed to be funded coin though :/

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January 15, 2014, 12:50:01 PM
 #963

Mike, I just read the Wired article featuring you..

I was wondering how you are allowed to sell the funded coins in person but not send them in the mail?

Is it something to do with being a business rather than an individual entity ?

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January 15, 2014, 07:03:51 PM
 #964

There are some advantages to the latter.  For example, I don't have to force users to use expensive shipping options to keep a grip on unfunded coins making it into the wild.  If self-fund coins get lost, the loss is limited to the physical coins that got lost, and not any BTC.

This is a true advantage. Insurance cost (and risk, insurance only pay value at time of sending, loss however is admitted only 3 months after that) is getting ridiculously high as of late.

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January 15, 2014, 08:57:43 PM
 #965

Sad thing it has to be like that. The pre funded coins had some sort of credibility. Now you can not know for sure if those coins are safe...

AFAIK the coins were never pre-funded. The funds were always added after purchasers received their coins. This is no different; it's just you funding them upon receipt instead of Mike funding them.

To be fair, there's a difference between an unfunded coin that I intend to fund with the original buyer's funds on hand but just haven't done so yet, and an unfunded coin that I explicitly have no intention to fund.

All else equal, one's likely to be considered worth 1BTC more than the other.

There are some advantages to the latter.  For example, I don't have to force users to use expensive shipping options to keep a grip on unfunded coins making it into the wild.  If self-fund coins get lost, the loss is limited to the physical coins that got lost, and not any BTC.
How does one qualify to be a "buyer"?
Does one need to do more than merely contact you personally in Utah?
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January 15, 2014, 09:19:16 PM
 #966

Regarding the potential for face to face sales I'd like those who are interested to contact me and let me know what they'd be interested in and what kind of deal.

(And, I ask, in a tongue in cheek manner, that I not be required to respond immediately)

I am still trying to figure what kind of interest there is, and what kind of logistics I'll need, and what steps I'll need to take in order to ensure I'm not creating personal security risks for myself or buyers.  It's difficult, because it doesn't take very many funded coins to make a routine of transacting them in person very dangerous.  Switching to unfunded coins wipes all of that out, and after deliberation, it's quite possible I may just offer only that.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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January 15, 2014, 09:24:55 PM
 #967

I would definately buy unfunded coins, as long as they come with hologram stickers. I don't mind funding them myself.

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January 16, 2014, 01:12:19 AM
 #968

Correct me if I'm wrong...
An "unfunded" Casascius coin would not benefit from the reputation Mike Caldwell has garnered...
Its integrity would depend on whoever owned it.
If I bought an unfunded coin from Mike, funded it myself and later tried to sell it, whoever buys it would have to trust me.
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January 16, 2014, 01:14:43 AM
 #969

Correct me if I'm wrong...
An "unfunded" Casascius coin would not benefit from the reputation Mike Caldwell has garnered...
Its integrity would depend on whoever owned it.
If I bought an unfunded coin from Mike, funded it myself and later tried to sell it, whoever buys it would have to trust me.

They can check the value of the coin by looking up the bitcoin address on the coin.

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January 16, 2014, 01:17:42 AM
 #970

Correct me if I'm wrong...
An "unfunded" Casascius coin would not benefit from the reputation Mike Caldwell has garnered...
Its integrity would depend on whoever owned it.
If I bought an unfunded coin from Mike, funded it myself and later tried to sell it, whoever buys it would have to trust me.

They can check the value of the coin by looking up the bitcoin address on the coin.
How do they know that I didn't write down the private key before I fixed the hologram sticker?
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January 16, 2014, 04:05:06 AM
 #971

Because you didn't fix the sticker, Mike Caldwell did.

No longer buying/selling Casascius coins. Beware scammers.
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January 16, 2014, 05:31:37 AM
 #972

It will create a mess on the secondary market where people are not as familiar with the details. You will have people selling unfunded as funded 1 BTC to unsuspecting buyers, you will have buyers find out later the 1 BTC casascius coin they bought actually has no btc in it even though the seal is intact, you will have mass confusion from the market and put in doubt all the old coins including those from previous years if they actually all have btc in it.  It will destroy the integrity and reputation of casascius coins.

I am 100% against selling 1 btc coin with seals without actually have the listed btc in them (that's actually committing fraud) or allowing buyers to apply the seal themselves( for obvious reasons ).  Both horrible horrible ideas.

If that's how it's going to be going forward, please use a different design and don't call them casascius coins.
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January 16, 2014, 06:33:47 AM
 #973

I am 100% against selling 1 btc coin with seals without actually have the listed btc in them (that's actually committing fraud) or allowing buyers to apply the seal themselves( for obvious reasons ).  Both horrible horrible ideas.


I am actually more likely to just have the hologram say "ZERO BTC" to make this clear.  I already have used holograms of this sort for the bars etc.  I had originally considered "SELF FUND" but I'm not at the point where I'm irreversibly committed to the text, and "ZERO BTC" twice, next to the address, is probably more likely to send the right message to a broader audience.  The word "SELF" might be misinterpreted (who's self? myself? yourself?), and so might "FUND" (verb? noun?)... but "ZERO" has a pretty clear meaning, and so does "BTC".

All such holograms will still be applied by me, not by the buyer, and self-applied Casascius holograms have never been proposed or offered.

And this probably doesn't need to be said, I don't agree with your argument that offering an unfunded version of a coin is fraud.

If that's how it's going to be going forward, please use a different design and don't call them casascius coins.

I will definitely use a different design, but let's be clear: Casascius is a word that identifies me as the origin of the item, and is not an indicator of anything else.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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January 16, 2014, 07:58:51 AM
 #974

I am 100% against selling 1 btc coin with seals without actually have the listed btc in them (that's actually committing fraud) or allowing buyers to apply the seal themselves( for obvious reasons ).  Both horrible horrible ideas.


I am actually more likely to just have the hologram say "ZERO BTC" to make this clear.  I already have used holograms of this sort for the bars etc.  I had originally considered "SELF FUND" but I'm not at the point where I'm irreversibly committed to the text, and "ZERO BTC" twice, next to the address, is probably more likely to send the right message to a broader audience.  The word "SELF" might be misinterpreted (who's self? myself? yourself?), and so might "FUND" (verb? noun?)... but "ZERO" has a pretty clear meaning, and so does "BTC".

All such holograms will still be applied by me, not by the buyer, and self-applied Casascius holograms have never been proposed or offered.

And this probably doesn't need to be said, I don't agree with your argument that offering an unfunded version of a coin is fraud.

If that's how it's going to be going forward, please use a different design and don't call them casascius coins.

I will definitely use a different design, but let's be clear: Casascius is a word that identifies me as the origin of the item, and is not an indicator of anything else.

My mistake on the self-applying seal, read it wrong from previous posts - understood now its a non-issue.

Mike, are you saying the new self fund casascius coins will NOT have the word "1 Bitcoin" on the brass side also? in addition to the hologram saying zero btc or something similar?   That would make it a bit better but i still think it's a bad idea - looking at the tree instead of the forest sort of thing.  The US dollars have "in god we trust", casascius coins lets face it, is "in mike cadwell we trust". It took you 2+ years of hard work to build casascius brand and make it the most valuable physical btc - there is a reason why people pay 2x for casascius and not other coins.

I just think this cheapens the brand to the point of no return if they can be sold as blanks with no value and not viable as a long term strategy.

If in person delivery is okie, maybe it's better to wholesale in person to a few reseller as distributor ( i am sure there will be plenty people willing), can also have 0.1 0.25 0.5 denominations given the current price. Anything but flooding the market with blanks that has no value after working so hard to make casascius a highly desired collectible item.

Of course just my opinions, ultimately it's your call.



 
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January 16, 2014, 09:26:22 AM
 #975

I already have used holograms of this sort for the bars etc.  I had originally considered "SELF FUND" but I'm not at the point where I'm irreversibly committed to the text, and "ZERO BTC" twice, next to the address, is probably more likely to send the right message to a broader audience.  The word "SELF" might be misinterpreted (who's self? myself? yourself?), and so might "FUND" (verb? noun?)... but "ZERO" has a pretty clear meaning, and so does "BTC".

Why not print "bitcoin Wallet" instead of ZERO?
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January 16, 2014, 12:38:54 PM
 #976

I suggest to change "1 BITCOIN" message on coin face to be changed just to BITCOIN. Without quotes.

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January 16, 2014, 03:22:16 PM
 #977

I suggest to change "1 BITCOIN" message on coin face to be changed just to BITCOIN. Without quotes.

PHYSICAL BITCOIN, even. I do understand the point that you'd like to discourage people from putting limitless amounts of funds on the coins, but I think the quotation marks slightly degrade the appearance of the coins, and the distinction that they are intended to convey will be lost on many.

FWIW, people can already add limitless funds to any Casascius coin. That said, I haven't yet seen a coin that was overfunded by more than a trivial amount of money (0.001 is the most I've seen so far).

I am 100% against selling 1 btc coin with seals without actually have the listed btc in them (that's actually committing fraud)

Fraud, really?


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January 16, 2014, 05:56:41 PM
 #978

I am 100% against selling 1 btc coin with seals without actually have the listed btc in them (that's actually committing fraud) or allowing buyers to apply the seal themselves( for obvious reasons ).  Both horrible horrible ideas.


I am actually more likely to just have the hologram say "ZERO BTC" to make this clear.  I already have used holograms of this sort for the bars etc.  I had originally considered "SELF FUND" but I'm not at the point where I'm irreversibly committed to the text, and "ZERO BTC" twice, next to the address, is probably more likely to send the right message to a broader audience.  The word "SELF" might be misinterpreted (who's self? myself? yourself?), and so might "FUND" (verb? noun?)... but "ZERO" has a pretty clear meaning, and so does "BTC".

All such holograms will still be applied by me, not by the buyer, and self-applied Casascius holograms have never been proposed or offered.

And this probably doesn't need to be said, I don't agree with your argument that offering an unfunded version of a coin is fraud.

If that's how it's going to be going forward, please use a different design and don't call them casascius coins.

I will definitely use a different design, but let's be clear: Casascius is a word that identifies me as the origin of the item, and is not an indicator of anything else.
OK, Thanks for the clarification.
I'm glad that you'll be applying the stickers.
The term "zero bitcoin" is confusing.  If the coin has been funded, then the "zero btc" designation is immediately obsolete.
I agree with the comment that if you issue self funded Casascius coins you'll create confusion and risk devaluing the Casascius coins that are already out there.
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January 16, 2014, 05:59:41 PM
 #979

Addendum:
Mike, do you really want to issue coins with the Casascius name that say "1 bitcoin" when there is really no funding of those coins? 
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January 16, 2014, 06:04:58 PM
 #980

BTC X or X BIT, as in, a given amount?

Also, if and when they are traded/exchanged, a Casascius 'X coin' could easily become known and easily recognisable as the standard for self-funded coins.
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