[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[qwizzie]

Thank you guys for bumping this thread. For awhile i was worried i had to do the bumping all by myself.

Nice of Monero community members like Hueristic and some newbees to help us out like that. Must be pretty quiet in their own Monero ANN / forum.
I guess one can only monitor the Wall Observer BTC/USD thread and discuss American Football for so long, before getting extremely bored, right Hueristic ?

Now i am counting on you guys to keep bumping this Dash ANN thread, i know you guys can do it .. i have faith in you guys !!

[Pang.]

qwizzie I respect what you write, and I appreciate that there are people like you fighting to make Dash known.

But the evidence is painful. I have tested many coins over time, and yes Dash works as a payment method, but admittedly almost nobody cares that it works as they can use USDT, USDC, in a similar way. I myself tried the Tron network months ago and it goes very fast and at very low costs... it is clear that it is a centralized network like XRP, but that seems to not matter to anyone in the world of total centralization.

It is also painful to see how LTC, Doge, BCH, BSV... stay up even without innovating too much. I think this is due, as I said before, to the fact that there are large interests covering the currency, while Dash is a "small" people's currency without whales positioned on exchanges such as Binance, Kraken, Coinbase... while the others are largely sustain by those exchanges.

Many think that the bull market will return in 2024, and I believe that in 2024 there will be a big decline, not only in cryptocurrencies, but also in the stock markets.

If we think about the possibility of BTC going below $20,000, it is quite obvious that Dash would be around $15 possibly. This would almost take us back to Evan's time, having spent millions on quotes, coded thousands of hours, and marketed hundreds of thousands.

What has all this been for?

Where would Dash be if he hadn't done any of this?

I do not intend to annoy anyone with these words, I'm just looking for reflection and to understand that things have gone very wrong over the years. You can't promise smoke over and over and expect people to clap and run to buy Dash. We need facts, and I hope that this 2023 those facts will arrive at once for the good of all those involved.

A greeting and health.

[xkcdd]

Massive news for Dashers in the USA!  Following the closure of Dash Direct, we now have something even better!  Introducing Spritz.finance a way you can pay your bills with Dash, even pay off your credit cards and send money into your bank account!  More details coming soon, for now, here are the links.

https://twitter.com/Dash_Community/status/1681720290722607105

https://twitter.com/spritzfinance/status/1681687063903760387

https://www.spritz.finance/blog/spritz-dash-support

[Mike323]

Thank you guys for bumping this thread. For awhile i was worried i had to do the bumping all by myself.

Nice of Monero community members like Hueristic and some newbees to help us out like that. Must be pretty quiet in their own Monero ANN / forum.
I guess one can only monitor the Wall Observer BTC/USD thread and discuss American Football for so long, before getting extremely bored, right Hueristic ?

Now i am counting on you guys to keep bumping this Dash ANN thread, i know you guys can do it .. i have faith in you guys !!

QUIZZIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
QUIZZIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
QUIZZIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
QUIZZIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
QUIZZIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

My dumb, doofus, dimwit, Dutch, dawg. You're never alone in this space. Great to see you back and even greater to see that you're still with DASH.   

[toknormal]

As anticipated, capital loss on masternode collateral nicely continuing to outperform dollar income from masternode rewards.

(By design, on a "we don't need all this hashrate" basis).

Prepare for Page 2 status and all that goes with it including the end of a fully funded, buoyant development effort:

https://imgur.com/lZkNzR4

***********************************
How to prevent this and arrest the descent:
***********************************

Wind in the reward ratio with immediate effect.

Another name for hashrate is "primary demand" (by definition). i.e. demand in the primary market. As far as new supply is concerned, Masternodes are market participants the same as everyone else. If primary demand for that supply is dismissed in favour of excessive gifting to that market sector, then chronic tanking of the marketcap relative to fully mined competitors is inevitable.

Exactly what we are seeing.

[toknormal]

Deep Value refers to your own analysis where the masternodes would be paid a fair rate for their services delivered, I believe you reasoned that was about $30?  So, today when we dropped for a moment to $38, value investors made the most of it and drove the price upwards.

Now at $26 in fact.

Ranking Nº 99.

[xkcdd]

Deep Value refers to your own analysis where the masternodes would be paid a fair rate for their services delivered, I believe you reasoned that was about $30?  So, today when we dropped for a moment to $38, value investors made the most of it and drove the price upwards.

Now at $26 in fact.

Ranking Nº 99.

99 is a curious position, $RUNE was sat at No. 99 last week before going on its current mega rip that has seen it double in price. NFA. DYOR. 

[toknormal]

99 is a curious position, $RUNE was sat at No. 99 last week before going on its current mega rip that has seen it double in price. NFA. DYOR.  

That remark seems consistent with most Dash insider commentary I've seen during the last 2 years - that "worse is actually better".

Try winding in the reward ratio for a change.

If you really want to promote this asset, try answering this question:

What is it exactly about the reward ratio that makes Dash appealing to outsiders more than insiders ? (Because that's what results in more buys than sells).

[xkcdd]

What is it exactly about the reward ratio that makes Dash appealing to outsiders more than insiders ? (Because that's what results in more buys than sells).

Dash is a masternode coin, with 38% of its supply 'locked' in masternodes earning yield, it is crucial to pay them an attractive rate to hold that value.  Currently MNs pay about 7.5% annualised (Dash on Dash), however, the current risk free rate is 4 to 5% (money market, short term treasuries), so increasing the allocation to masternodes is required to attract new investment.  Luckily, in Dash much of the security traditionally derived from mining has been shifted to the masternode network, eg by means of ChainLocks, a Dash invention that was later also adopted by Dash copy cat, Firo.  ChainLocks prevents any chance of 51% attack a large attack vector for traditional POW coins such as Bitcoin and Litecoin.  Further, coming in v20 (our next release) the entropy used for creating quorums (another Dash invention) will no longer come from miners, but rather come from the CLSIG message which will be mined into every block.  This further reduces our need for a massive and wasteful mining outfit.  For these reasons, we should focus on reducing the portion of the reward paid to miners and diverting those funds to the DAO or the masternodes.

For reference, here is how the subsidy is currently dispersed in Dash.

Code:

Miner: 38.07%
MN:    51.93%
DAO:   10%

[toknormal]

Dash is a masternode coin, with 38% of its supply 'locked' in masternodes earning yield, it is crucial to pay them an attractive rate to hold that value.

You've got this all wrong. It is not thought out properly.

First of all, nobody's earning any "yield" because the collateral does not hold its value. Nobody's interested in earning more Dash on a shrivelling capital base, they want the investment they already have to first perform against competing assets. In particular against other fully mined ones given that our protocol was modified on the basis that we didn't need that mining and that ditching it would make us more competitive (need I remind you it hasn't, it's made us LESS competitive).

Secondly, when you take the market as a whole (Secondary exchange markets AND the primary mining market), it turns out that the CAUSE of the negative yielding in Dash is grossly over-donating to existing holders instead of selling to the highest bidder. We don't control the MN dollar reward - the external market does and so when it sees a node with $10 a month running costs being gifted half of all the new supply is simply devalues the entire asset to reflect the true value being contributed by masternodes. In fully mined coins you don't get this - the entire supply has to be bid for which restricts it to ONLY those investors who are paying for it. This serves to support the marketcap.

Thirdly, no coins are "locked" in masternodes. The situation's exactly the same as in bitcoin = you might as well say coins as "locked" in bitcoin wallets because Dash MN collateral is just as liquid - it can be sent to an exchange at any time and there's not timelock on those coins. MNs get bought & sold just as non-collateral supply. In fact there's more incentive to hold bitcoin or any other fully mined, Page 1 altcoin, than to hold Dash masternode collateral simply because of the improved capital performance. (They "yield" more from capital gain alone than Dash does with Cap gain + MN reward).

Fourthly, you have miss-characterised the role of mining. It's not only to secure the network, that's just a technical bi-product. Its economic role is to support a decentralised market for the new supply where hashrate serves as the "currency" of purchase so that a centralised broker (such as an exchange) is not required. Chainlocks is not a substitute for this role which is why the market has valued it accordingly and we never saw any upwards revaluation when that feature was incorporated. The only thing the wider market will ever significantly revalue is if the masternode rewards are wound in. Then we might have a chance of stabilising the catastrophic and chronic capital loss on collateral and see a much more optimal balance of growth between income and capital gain.

So your justification doesn't hold water and nor has it ever. Our protocol has prioritised masternode income at the expense of capital gain and it's toxifying the entire investability of the asset.

The price is now $26 and we are the BOTTOM ranked mined coin in the top 100. That is exactly as I predicted when we dismissed mining as non-essential 3 years ago.

[oldcoinguru]

Looks like Dash has made it to 101.  Some saw this coming.  Others wouldn't listen. 

[xkcdd]

An important new governance proposal is in for the Dash Masternode network to vote on.
https://www.dashcentral.org/p/TREASURY-REALLOCATION-60-20-20
In brief, the proposal aims to make the following emission changes.


Current allocation:

    Miner reward: 36%
    Masternode reward: 54%
    Treasury: 10%


Proposed allocation, in light of the above:

    Miner reward: 20%
    Masternode reward: 60%
    Treasury: 20%


This proposal may be seen as controversial by some, but it reflects the network's overall lesser reliance on POW for the network security and the greater role that the masternodes play in securing the coin.  Voting is now open and you may view the leaderboard here https://mnowatch.org/leaderboard/ as the votes come in, in real-time.

[Hueristic]

An important new governance proposal is in for the Dash Masternode network to vote on.
https://www.dashcentral.org/p/TREASURY-REALLOCATION-60-20-20
In brief, the proposal aims to make the following emission changes.


Current allocation:

    Miner reward: 36%
    Masternode reward: 54%
    Treasury: 10%


Proposed allocation, in light of the above:

    Miner reward: 20%
    Masternode reward: 60%
    Treasury: 20%


This proposal may be seen as controversial by some, but it reflects the network's overall lesser reliance on POW for the network security and the greater role that the masternodes play in securing the coin.  Voting is now open and you may view the leaderboard here https://mnowatch.org/leaderboard/ as the votes come in, in real-time.

LOL whales squeezing the little guys even more!

what a joke this shitshow is.

[nutildah]

LOL whales squeezing the little guys even more!

what a joke this shitshow is.

He has a point. Your community has been telling you to go in a different direction for years now, but instead you opt to go faster in the same direction? Pains me to say it but the future looks bleak for 'ol Dash.

I have a nostalgia for this coin since it was one of the first alts I made good $$$ from trading back in the day. It could have been a serious privacy coin contender but instead its a cautionary tale of the importance of proper governance.

If this proposal is enacted it will be the final death blow.

[afbitcoins]

An important new governance proposal is in for the Dash Masternode network to vote on.
https://www.dashcentral.org/p/TREASURY-REALLOCATION-60-20-20
In brief, the proposal aims to make the following emission changes.


Current allocation:

    Miner reward: 36%
    Masternode reward: 54%
    Treasury: 10%


Proposed allocation, in light of the above:

    Miner reward: 20%
    Masternode reward: 60%
    Treasury: 20%


This proposal may be seen as controversial by some, but it reflects the network's overall lesser reliance on POW for the network security and the greater role that the masternodes play in securing the coin.  Voting is now open and you may view the leaderboard here https://mnowatch.org/leaderboard/ as the votes come in, in real-time.

I take no pleasure in seeing this project run into the ground. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what needs to happen.

Please refer to toknormal's many posts on the matter.

Additional

Last time the reward allocation was changed to the disadvantage or mining, Ryan Taylor argued the exact same argument. That miners are net sellers. Dash doesn't need hash rate, more masternodes will come on line and lock up collateral ... blah blah blah blah BLAH

Heres what happened.

...snip...

Heres the number of masternodes since the reward allocation was changed, marked with a big red arrow.



oh dear.

and here's price.



... snip...

The last reward adjustment has been PROVEN by the market, to be a miserable failure.Why on earth double down on what is a disaster for the project ?!

The dash price was at key areas that should have given support (blue lines). Then Ryan Taylor and the shambolic bunch of masternode owners pulled that allocation adjustment.

 Very sad day for dash back then

Very sad day yet again. You learn nothing and deserve the consequences of this.  

[xkcdd]

An important new governance proposal is in for the Dash Masternode network to vote on.
https://www.dashcentral.org/p/TREASURY-REALLOCATION-60-20-20
In brief, the proposal aims to make the following emission changes.


Current allocation:

    Miner reward: 36%
    Masternode reward: 54%
    Treasury: 10%


Proposed allocation, in light of the above:

    Miner reward: 20%
    Masternode reward: 60%
    Treasury: 20%


This proposal may be seen as controversial by some, but it reflects the network's overall lesser reliance on POW for the network security and the greater role that the masternodes play in securing the coin.  Voting is now open and you may view the leaderboard here https://mnowatch.org/leaderboard/ as the votes come in, in real-time.

Watch the Incubator Weekly Show with Amanda and Sam Westrich CTO of Dash Core Group discuss the upcoming rellocation proposal!  Some really great insight into this change and why it is absolutely imperative that Dash makes this optimisation if it is stay competitive in the space.

https://youtu.be/UEe9oi1njFY?t=875


Really insightful quote from the show.

...and those coins that have come in [to coinmarketcap], and that are above us, ah they're not proof of work coins, they really aren't.

[toknormal]

Proposed allocation, in light of the above:

    Miner reward: 20%
    Masternode reward: 60%
    Treasury: 20%



https://youtu.be/UEe9oi1njFY?t=875


Really insightful quote from the show.

...and those coins that have come in [to coinmarketcap], and that are above us, ah they're not proof of work coins, they really aren't.

 

This is hilarious. The last re-allocation worked so well that lets do more of it.

Let me just address this point first of all:

1. It doesn't matter that the "coins above us aren't proof of work coins". What matters is that the CONTROLS for measuring Dash's experiment in diminishing the POW quota ARE above us.

2. Efficiency can be measured 2 ways:

A: efficiency in storing value
B: efficiency in producing the actual coin

IF you use method "B" criteria (which is what is being done in that video) then all you're doing is judging the network as you would a production process. i.e. if you make the cost of production ever cheaper, the coin will simply change hands for ever cheaper amounts. This is NOT the case with the "non-POW" coins because they are proof of stake from inception and have a completely different business model from Dash. They have on-chain sinks.

The whole point of POW is to make the production cost approximate to the exchange value until such time as transaction fees take over. You can't just turn Dash into a POS simply because it "looks like everyone else is POS".

This is the most insane proposal I've seen and it will be the end of Dash due to people utterly misunderstanding the economic nature of a cryptocurrency, especially a POW one. The mining process is a MARKET. Miners are simply primary purchasers of the new supply and bid for that coin in a trustless market. If the chain simply gifts that supply instead, it will tank the marketcap back into the dark ages.

I have been right so far over the last 2 years. Surely people cannot be so stupid as to double down on an already failed strategy.

Finally: lets define "efficiency". In a widget production process of some kind (e.g. cars, computers) it's defined by [sale price]/[cost of production].
In a POW cryptocurrency it's defined by [return on investment] - a completely different concept. That's what "gives the most value for the money investors are paying". They DO NOT WANT a coin that is cheap to produce (unlike in the widget case). They want a coin that is EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE (because they don't want to pay $1000 for a coin that only cost $1 to mine and since a masternode is simply a zero-difficulty miner in this respect, that's what they will increasingly get if this proposal has its way).

==========================================

Here are some specific misconceptions:

1: Amanda asks here (understandably) "how much electricity is too much" ? The very fact that she's asking that question is an indication that the whole premise of mining is mis-understood because there's no categorical answer. If you don't value mining then you should just get rid of it all and convert to POS, solving the security problem another way like POS coins do. But there IS a point to mining and this brings me point 2:

2: In this clip, @riongull asserts that "the whole reason that we have mining is to prevent attacks". This is simply WRONG. Mining has an economic dimension which is a DECENTRALISED MARKET. It's how market participants bid for and purchase the new supply without recourse to either centralised exchanges or Public Coin Offerings.

3: In the context of [3] therefore, "Dash" is not paying electricity companies. Dash is not even a company or an entity. Market participants are paying electricity companies so they can convert their dollars into the trading currency of that primary, decentralised market which is hashrate.

So all the electric companies are doing is acting as currency exchange brokers. The capital flow is thus:

Primary coin buyer: --> $USD --> Electric Co --> Hashrate --> Dash Network (Increasing marginal bid price)

You can see form that capital flow therefore that electric companies are putting value INTO the Dash network, funded by primary coin buyers. So the answer to Amanda's question is NO amount is too much to pay to electric companies because the Dash network is not paying it, the primary coin buyers are. (That's also why she's having a problem with the arbitrarily set mining reward ratio). The fact that they then sell the coin on exchanges is moot because they have ALREADY invested in the primary market at the marginal price and the coin is simply changing hands from then on with no net sell pressure.

[afbitcoins]

An important new governance proposal is in for the Dash Masternode network to vote on.
https://www.dashcentral.org/p/TREASURY-REALLOCATION-60-20-20
In brief, the proposal aims to make the following emission changes.


Current allocation:

    Miner reward: 36%
    Masternode reward: 54%
    Treasury: 10%


Proposed allocation, in light of the above:

    Miner reward: 20%
    Masternode reward: 60%
    Treasury: 20%


This proposal may be seen as controversial by some, but it reflects the network's overall lesser reliance on POW for the network security and the greater role that the masternodes play in securing the coin.  Voting is now open and you may view the leaderboard here https://mnowatch.org/leaderboard/ as the votes come in, in real-time.

Watch the Incubator Weekly Show with Amanda and Sam Westrich CTO of Dash Core Group discuss the upcoming rellocation proposal!  Some really great insight into this change and why it is absolutely imperative that Dash makes this optimisation if it is stay competitive in the space.

https://youtu.be/UEe9oi1njFY?t=875


Really insightful quote from the show.

...and those coins that have come in [to coinmarketcap], and that are above us, ah they're not proof of work coins, they really aren't.

Did you delete posts so yours would be top of the most recent page, pushing mine to the end of the previous page ? Haha same back to you  
Its quite a pitiful gesture to be honest, does anyone even come here anymore?

So, don't you have a real response to my post ? I showed with charts the empirical evidence that the last reward adjustment to punish proof of work was a failure. As judged by the market. Now you want to punish POW even more. Its a sad sad time. Dash Core Group should be defunded. these people are devs and should stick to what they know. they have no business making these absolutely horrible economic decisions. They have ruined this project, sucking the value out of the token.

I'll tell you what happens when masternode payments and treasury spending is increased. Dash bombs. The evidence is proven. Soon to be off the first page of coinmarketcap for good.

[Pang.]

It seems that time has shown that Dash's real problem is inside him... in his own core.

When a cancer cell begins to grow, it is completely unaware that it will end up killing the human where it lives, and the cell itself will also die.

Something similar happens here, since it is assumed that without the existence of DCG Dash would be meaningless, and yet I believe that if DCG did not exist and the funds that have been dedicated to it for years were simply "destroyed", Dash would be in a most favorable position in terms of budget.

 $175,000 a month is enough to buy a small apartment in many places in the world. It also helps maintain many programmers. In Eastern Europe the average salary of a worker is around $1,500 for working about eight hours a day.

I remember when Ryan teased us all with Dash's new look that cost thousands of dollars and could have been done by a kid with a free image treatment program.

Now it seems that they want to continue teasing us by stating that everything will be ready soon.

As far as I'm concerned, the only logical proposal I would approve right now is the disappearance of all funding for DCG blackmailers.

If this tumor continues to be fed, we all know how this coin that one day shone at the top and that is now trying to survive a mortal wound will end.

Do what you think is best for Dash, not DCG.

[xkcdd]

This is hilarious. The last re-allocation worked so well that lets do more of it.

 

Did you delete posts so yours would be top of the most recent page, pushing mine to the end of the previous page ? Haha same back to you 
Its quite a pitiful gesture to be honest, does anyone even come here anymore?

No, not at all, I've never deleted a post, but I see many others do.


There is an open invitation to both of you to join the Incubator weekly on Monday and put forward your side of the argument, ie why this is a bad proposal.  The podcast is a paid segment, you will be able to claim a 3 Dash bounty for your time, but more importantly, you will be given a forum to explain this to the broader community and hopefully save Dash (in your eyes) from this folly.  Please contact Amanda on the Discord, or DM the DashIncubator handle on the sub reddit, or leave a comment on the youtube link and let them know you wish to appear on the show and set the matter straight.  I look forward to hearing from one of you.