[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[xkcdd]

Tokenormal is wrong on this occasion, this is not a pump and dump by whale(s), this is a broad based FOMO from across the crypto-space and I think it has legs and shows a change of trend.  DASH has value in its own right as digital cash / payments network.  Bitcoin is considered a Store of Value, but is lousy for payments.  I think DASH fills a valuable need here and that gives it monetary value.  Toke will keep his head buried in the sand because he is old and proud and ultimately unmalleable.  He is married to his ideas and will in due course take them to his grave.

[toknormal]

I think it has legs

Investments only have "legs" because they do useful work. They don't have legs just by holding.

One half (50%) of Dash's supply goes to the drain. That is to say it is spent on a network resource that does no work, or at least work that costs only around 2% of the Dash budget that's spent on it.

When you deposit your money in a bank you earn interest on it (or used to). But that interest did not simply accrue by virtue of your money sitting there. Somebody had to "put it to work" which is very difficult. They had to find companies actually produced goods and services that people want. Those companies had to be profitable. That profit had to be sustainable.

Only after all that evolutionary effort and growth was there any interest to be had on a bank deposit. While cryptos are synthetic assets, they still have to have a genuine economic basis for their returns. You can't simply "divert" the mining supply to large holders and pretend it's an analogue of the legacy banking system when those investments aren't doing any measurable work.

Dash masternodes are good, but the quantity of core coin emission they draw is simply ridiculous. Half of the entire supply - for what ? A node ? That barely needs to spend any money to keep the network going ? Look how Doge p*ssed all over us because of this zealotry.

It makes us un-investible even for masternode buyers. We're only investible for bitcoin buyers who want to use alts as a pump & dump proxy to get more bitcoin at the moment.

We'll never be competitive with the reward ratio crippling Dash's mining market to such an extent while monetary velocity is so low. We need to set the operating profits at near parity for miners and masternodes for a start. That will at least make us competitive again with our commercial peers (in the mining sector).

Only then can we start to promote features which will put us ahead of our peers.

Do this calculation. Compare it with Litecoin. Litecoin spends nothing on its nodes. But what monetary velocity does it get for that "nothing" expenditure ? I haven't done that calculation because you need to multiply the daily transaction count by the value of each transaction to get it and I haven't done that. Has DCG done that ? Have they produced any figures to justify spending half the entire coin supply on such a cheap resource ?

No. Of course they haven't because if they had done that the conclusion would have been that we'd have had to drastically move the slider in favour of miners to make Dash competitive again and that would not get past the MN voting system that is currently killing this coin because it would require turkeys to vote or christmas.

Masternode voting system is strangling this coin by preserving the elephant in the room at the moment and we need to find a way out of it as it has much potential if its ongoing emission isn't drained in such an unproductive way.

[jdmcg]

Some of us have been here before.

So, try not to make the same mistake?

Dash is being bought by investors who are seeking to gain more bitcoin, not to gain more Dash.

All investors? Or just some? There's not an alt out there where some investors are buying it in the hopes of selling it for more BTC. So you just discovered this? It's not in any way unique to DASH.

The trend is your friend. Learn TA. Understand Bitcoin's cycles, this is its 4th now.

DASH has been in a bull run vs USD since Nov 28 2020 and it's not even in a bull run vs BTC yet. However for the next 4-8 months, almost every alt will outperform BTC.

Just be aware, at some point the trend will change.

When it does, the good alts won't die, but they'll likely suffer more pull back than BTC, so don't be surprised when people attempt to escape by selling alts for BTC.

All the 'reasons' you give won't prevent DASH from outperforming BTC during alt seasons. And all the 'fixes' you propose won't prevent DASH from underperforming BTC during bear markets.

Perhaps ETH will be the first to break this pattern with BTC... but we'll have to wait and see...

[toknormal]

Just be aware, at some point the trend will change.

When it does, the good alts won't die, but they'll likely suffer more pull back than BTC, so don't be surprised when people attempt to escape by selling alts for BTC.

Go check the blackoin thread on bitcointalk.com from 5 years back and others like it.

All this "trend based" reasoning died there already several years ago.

[jdmcg]

Just be aware, at some point the trend will change.

When it does, the good alts won't die, but they'll likely suffer more pull back than BTC, so don't be surprised when people attempt to escape by selling alts for BTC.

Maybe you should just start considering reasoned argument instead of spouting your unreasoned trend-mantra on here. Go check the blackoin thread on bitcointalk.com and others like it. All your posts died there already several years ago.

I assume you mean BlackCoin? You're seriously comparing DASH to an alt that barely surpassed $1 during the height of the last bull run? Also, I never posted on that thread before...

You do know DASH's ATH was above $1000 USD? And that it still maintained good value during the worst parts of the bear market? There are few investments inside or outside of crypto that performed better in 6 years.

Again, DASH will very likely have a marketcap at least double that of XMR, a single coin price at least 4 times that of LTC, will pass 0.01 BTC again, and at the very least challenge 0.022 BTC again. It will surpass its previous ATH of $1600. Do I know this for sure? No, but just a little TA puts the odds overwhelmingly in favor of an alt like DASH.

You on the other hand made a prediction that DASH would sink to $6 because of your 'theory'. Is that still to happen?

[toknormal]

You're seriously comparing DASH to an alt that barely surpassed $1 during the height of the last bull run?

That's where it's headed in ranking terms if it continuous to waste 50% of its coin supply on pure dividends. Would you expect anything else ?

You do know DASH's ATH was above $1000 USD? And that it still maintained good value during the worst parts of the bear market?

It hit $1400 on a spike and then settled at a sub $100 level.

The only coins that will survive from here are the ones that can see themselves as their non-holders do. That is a challenge that goes beyond 2014 tribalism. What's needed now is reasoned argument. We are in the next wave and Dash was the first "governed" coin.

[jdmcg]

You're seriously comparing DASH to an alt that barely surpassed $1 during the height of the last bull run?

That's where it's headed in ranking terms if it continuous to waste 50% of its coin supply on pure dividends. Would you expect anything else ?

Yup, think I made that clear. It did well last bull run. It appears to be gearing up to do really well again. What has changed to stop it? And Dash Platform (DashPay) is still to be released. Will you finally stop being so negative once DASH hits $500 again? $1000? Maybe $2000?

You do know DASH's ATH was above $1000 USD? And that it still maintained good value during the worst parts of the bear market?

It hit $1400 on a spike and then settled at a sub $100 level. There was no growth. I've been here as long as you have and probably longer so stop trying be the new qwizzie spin doctor for Dash. We are in a potentially strong position and the last thing that's needed is 2014 type "we're the next bitcoin" crap.

No growth? Seems before the 2017 bull run DASH was around $8 - $10. During the bear market it briefly touched a bit below $40, but seemed to mostly find a floor at $60. And now as it gears up to enter a bull run against BTC it's hovering around $250. Personally, I think DASH is better than Bitcoin but maybe that's just because I personally can use it more than I can BTC.

We're in limbo because: A vote was taken and that had the effect of suppressing all debate.

I don't see it that way. A vote was taken and now we see how it pans out. Nothing prevents the mood from changing and a new vote from being taken. Your challenge is to garner enough or even some support for your position. I only see you here spreading negativity and causing perhaps a few to sell their DASH. You should hope they don't harbor any resentment towards you now or over the next 6 months or so...

[toknormal]

No growth? Seems before the 2017 bull run DASH was around $8 - $10.

Satoshi prices are all that matter for assets that claim to be more investible than bitcoin.

This isn't 2014. Dash spends half its supply on a network resource that costs peanuts. That is not an investible proposition and the investing "institutions" will be even less impressed by your arguments than I am.

The way to sort this is to reduce the masternode reward ratio. Even masternodes will benefit from such a protocol change because the capital gain from their collateral will simply blow away any marginal reward they would have received by getting "more Dash".

[xkcdd]

Tok, would you agree that one thing we could do that would improve the situation slightly is to reduce the collateral requirement for running a masternode to 250 DASH, which essentially quadruples the hosting fee, puts more nodes on the network and makes running masternodes more accessible for average people which should improve the decentralisation of the network and reduce the constant outcry for shared masternodes to be built into the protcol?  I do not subscribe to the argument that too many nodes would congest the network, Bitcoin has more nodes than we do and TXes propoagate through it within a second or too, ofcourse they then take days to get mined.  I would support reducing the collateral requirements.

[toknormal]

Tok, would you agree that one thing we could do that would improve the situation slightly is to reduce the collateral requirement for running a masternode to 250 DASH

The core issue is we have 2 markets and we have to compete in both. Ryan's analysis was incomplete. Miners are not sellers, they are brokers. They only make TINY profits because they are BUYERS of Dash at the most commercially critical point - the new supply.

[jdmcg]

No growth? Seems before the 2017 bull run DASH was around $8 - $10.

Satoshi prices are all that matter for assets that claim to be more investible than bitcoin.

No wonder you wallow in your misery. I purchased DASH with fiat... it seems you sold BTC for DASH at an unfavorable ratio.

We're headed into the bottom half of the top 100 now when we could be competing with Litecoin very easily if the community became more aware about which of Dash's features contributed to capital gain. (Hint: Mining is the engine, features is the steering wheel)

Well, we were headed towards 50, but over the last week we've clearly reversed that trend. Do you think it's already over?

Tok, would you agree that one thing we could do that would improve the situation slightly is to reduce the collateral requirement for running a masternode to 250 DASH, which essentially quadruples the hosting fee, puts more nodes on the network and makes running masternodes more accessible for average people which should improve the decentralisation of the network and reduce the constant outcry for shared masternodes to be built into the protcol?  I do not subscribe to the argument that too many nodes would congest the network, Bitcoin has more nodes than we do and TXes propoagate through it within a second or too, ofcourse they then take days to get mined.  I would support reducing the collateral requirements.

Although I prefer implementing shared masternodes where each masternode is either made up of 10 100 DASH collateral addresses, 5 200 DASH collateral addresses or even 4 250 DASH collateral addresses, I'd be ok with lowering the collateral to 250 as well for similar reasons as you state.
 

[toknormal]

No wonder you wallow in your misery. I purchased DASH with fiat... it seems you sold BTC for DASH at an unfavorable ratio.

I'm not anti-Dash. I'm pro-optimising its protocol so it doesn't keep losing marketcap to any random competitor that happens to mine its full supply and not give half of it away at zero-difficulty.

[bigrcanada1]

Looks like Toknormal has turned full goof DASH troll!!!  

Tokenomics is rubbish.

The ridiculous argument that "mining" is what creates value to a coin... doesn't hold water,  only 11 coins in the top 50 are even minable for christ sake and 3 of those 11 direct rips of Bitcoin, one is freakn meme coin and the majority of the other 7 are centralized.

Anyway...we should stop engaging this fan of "centralized" control that the current mining model provides.

Having my money in the control of massive the "Chinese" government controlled mining farms is something I want to move away from as quickly as possible and this is what Tok is advocating for.

Thankfully...DCG and other more thoughtful DASH community members have voted this ideology away.

So please don't bother explaining away the MASSIVE hole you've dug yourself.  Your love affair with CMC rankings doesn't even support you basic premise.

What a fall for a member that many of us looked up too...only to become a bumbling troll.

[toknormal]

The ridiculous argument that "mining" is what creates value to a coin... doesn't hold water,  only 11 coins in the top 50 are even minable for christ sake

Hey, you're the one with the explaining to do, not me

Last time we spoke Dash was at least holding its own against said "joke coin".

While you're probably right that mining in a "technological sense" doesn't necessarily add any value, "buying" does. And mining is simply buying in a trustless market.

[aleix]

Last time we spoke Dash was at least holding its own against said "joke coin".

Maybe you have been in vacation or something, not aware of media for a while. You know a guy by the name Elon Musk (he is a famous US guy, for what I heard) doing jokes about a coin named Doge in twitter? Grayscale or Paypal latest news about Bitcoin maybe? The CEO de Blackrock talking about Bitcoin too?

Are you sure you are ok?

[dafdaf]

What a fall for a member that many of us looked up too...

+1

Tok's problem: he is too smart to admit that crypto markets are 80% made of pure dumbness. That's the main reason why there are so many crappy coins above Dash in the sacrosanct rankings. Nobody among the usual investors care about mining hash rates or whatever else, they only care about dog memes and “number go up” — period.

[toknormal]

The numbers always have their say in the end.

Sure there are pump & dumps and crapcoins popping up like mushrooms after a rainshower but the reason we've been going in the wrong direction for 3 years despite boasting features and useability performance galore is simple math.

You need to see mining as a market. Forget about the word "mining". It's a market where buyers compete for the supply, that's all. Having the protocol issue coin at $0 undermines the price of the paid for ("mined") half of that market.

[jdmcg]

No wonder you wallow in your misery. I purchased DASH with fiat... it seems you sold BTC for DASH at an unfavorable ratio.

I'm not anti-Dash. I'm pro-optimising its protocol so it doesn't keep losing marketcap to any random competitor that happens to mine its full supply and not give half of it away at zero-difficulty.

You are extremely negative here, at least for the last 8 months. That's how you come across to me anyways.

Check out the Litecoin thread... a fully mined coin, and someone there in despair how LTC has lost sat value over the last 7 years too. Now, how can that be if LTC has the correct mining ratio that DASH needs?

The ridiculous argument that "mining" is what creates value to a coin... doesn't hold water,  only 11 coins in the top 50 are even minable for christ sake

Hey, you're the one with the explaining to do, not me

Now why is it up to everyone but you to explain? Why do you dismiss any argument by simply repeating the same message? I say it's about time you come up with a sound rebuttal to all the counter-arguments.

You seem to have 2 parts to your argument.

1) DASH is falling down in the ranks because 50% of the coins are given away for "free" to masternode owners who mine at 0% difficulty.

To this I and others have observed that the majority of coins higher than DASH give 100% of their coins away for "free" via staking/delegation rewards. DOGE, which you have praised here a number of times, is 95% given away for "free" to LTC miners.

2) DASH falling down in the ranks on CMC is proof of your point in 1). Further to that you seem adamant that when DASH starts moving up in ranks it doesn't show any evidence against your theory in your point 1)

To this I've pointed out many times this is circumstantial evidence at best. Your argument seems to involve circular logic. I invited you to learn some basic TA which largely predicts price cycles based on human psychology (fear and greed).

What a fall for a member that many of us looked up too...

+1

Tok's problem: he is too smart to admit that crypto markets are 80% made of pure dumbness. That's the main reason why there are so many crappy coins above Dash in the sacrosanct rankings. Nobody among the usual investors care about mining hash rates or whatever else, they only care about dog memes and “number go up” — period.

I've always found it so curious how many here are so beholden to toknormal when his recent behavior has at best been troll-like and exhausting to the point of ad nauseum.

Sure there are pump & dumps and crapcoins popping up like mushrooms after a rainshower but the reason we've been going in the wrong direction for 3 years despite boasting features and useability performance galore is simple math.

And then there's the constant back-handed insulting comments. Sure, no one can figure out this "simple math" except you.

[toknormal]

To this I and others have observed that the majority of coins higher than DASH give 100% of their coins away for "free" via staking/delegation rewards

I've explained this many times. POS coins have an on-chain "sink". It's a completely different monetary model from Dash. A different basis for value. You can't compare the rewards from staking on a smart-contract chain with diverting half the mining supply to existing holders.

I also challenged the basis for Dash's current protocol as presented last year. I indicated that this basis was flawed. Miners are not net sellers, they are "brokers". Nobody even addressed this. It's a huge hole in the reasoning.

So I am only "appearing" to be negative. The issues are there and they are reflected in ranking. I'm sure there are plenty of holders with their heads not in the clouds wondering why Dash's feature advantages over LTC, XMR, BSV, DOGE etc result in no ranking advantage whatsoever. The explanation for this I've presented is consistent and reasoned. Competing explanations offered up here amount to no more than shoulder shrugging, "it's the stupid markets". I don't think that's very satisfactory.

[cfif]

DASH is still alive. I glad to see it. Developers claims himself like a absolute decentralized system. Okay, Its a nice, but what about mass adaption? Does it work?