[ActiveMining] Official Shareholder Discussion Thread [Moderated]

[VinceSamios]

ey up
Ken, did any of the VMC products got shipped out outside US? or maybe an EU customer care to share his experience?

Myself and another have ordered (me 1, other 2) to the UK - Mine has been shipping, I will update folks when it arrives.

[bigdude]

All the legal issues, Ken needs to resolve the customer facing issues of refunds etc with utmost urgency.

I would actually be willing to consider allowing a payment of the refunds from our mining dividends that are sitting there at the moment. But we would need to know how many btc need to be returned first. Then maybe we can vote, and settle this issue and move on to greener pastures

[equipoise]

Last fall, I compiled an xl spreadsheet of all shares/public addresses that adds up to 10,000,000 shares… if anyone is interested.


EDIT: list is from BitFunder

Could you please share it with us? Did you followed the BF shares data day by day since the transfers to AMC-TENDER had started? This could lead to a complete list of shareholders which adds up to 10,000,000 but other such lists could be possible with differences between them. For example: between two data points a shareholder sold his shares to someone else and this second person sends his shares to ACT-TENDER. In the next data point you would think that the first person transferred to ACT-TENDER, but it was actually the second person and this can't be traced in the BF archive data.

EDIT: The data points (http://bitfunder.firstitinc.com/asset-list/) are in 10 minutes intervals. It would be unusual for someone to buy shares and send them immediately to Ken, but it's still possible.

[minerpart]

If Ken is correct that he can't pay the dividend until the MSD has finished their investigation and Minerpart is correct that they will most likely gather evidence for the next several years, does this mean we could be watiting several years until we have the chance to get a dividend?

I didn't say several years I don't know where you got that from. Looking at several similar cases on the MSD website the average time taken from initiation of the investigation to the MSD ruling was 12months. The completion of this investigation will likely not mean he can start issuing divs infact quite the opposite he could be specifically barred from doing so. Ken needs to either get us securities registration or find a CC-type solution that the MSD and SEC are happy with before we get our divs and shares back.

[shaofis]

Ken needs to either get us securities registration or find a CC-type solution that the MSD and SEC are happy with before we get our divs and shares back.

There is no CC-type solution that the MSD and SEC will be satisfied with. The only thing they'd accept would be a fully authorized and registered security. The CC has and remains a stalling tactic; it's not ready... there is no timeline for it being ready... this makes it a perfect target to say will be our solution. The problem is Ken is already on their radar and under investigation... right now he's just stalling and trying to not to break any additional laws.

I really hate to say it but in my opinion the only option for shareholders of ActM at this point is to take to the courts. I'm not sure that the Class Action organization would represent anyone's interests but their own... but the repeated pattern from Ken to mislead those who have trusted him with their money is a major concern.

At this point; I myself would have to consider him in breach of contract... whether we have legal ground to stand on; he has violated the agreement by which we gave him money by first withholding our shares and now by withholding dividends that are owed to us.

The MSD/SEC issues are Ken's not ours as investors... in my opinion they do not excuse Ken from his legal obligation to us. They are certainly troubling and an indication of the value or impact on value of our investment but they do not preclude him from his responsibilities to us.

[toastee]

This lawyer from Wood is doing a consumer case. Nothing to do with securities regulations which are procecuted by Federal or State agencies like the MSD. The lawyer has no ability to harm this companys trading except sue for damages for unshipped miners or unfulfilled refunds (possibly lost divs) - which may amount to a few k dollars per claimant. That is why he wants all the shareholders names so he can contact them all and persuade them to sue the company for as much money as possible. He has zero ability to implement any restructuring of the company, liquidate the company, have accounts done, make Ken shine his shoes.

He strung you along like a fish. The more names you give him the more money he will make and the more money actm will loose in damages. If you want the company to succeed and not be bankrupted by Woods case then do not talk to him again.

You should know this it was made clear a few days ago.

Seriously Lorenzo. I like you and all but how did you not see right through this?

[bitlind]

snip

snip

I agree 100% with what you outlined Shaofis.

I believe this to also be relevant, MSD is wary of Bitcoin and I would bet Ken's actions contributed.

http://www.sos.mo.gov/news.asp?id=1383

Will my comment get deleted?  probably.

[thefunkybits]

Ken - I hope you're doing everything in your power to try and find a solution to these issues right now. Talk to your lawyers and find us a legal way to verify our shares. The MSD hasn't issued any actions upon you thus far and you know the investigation is no excuse for letting us not verify our shares (I hope the coding of the site isn't a problem for you). You know our concerns, and the way you have been handling the issue is only leading to more problems seeing as we are still freaking out about shares.

Many are excited about this company, but we need access to our shares ASAP or some will be coming after your assets.

I can promise you we will all STFU and stop contacting people if we can verify our shares and if progress is made in the direction of trading. Not acting fast on this is going to end in pain for everybody

[JoTheKhan]

+1

@DTS you're right and I thought everyone here knew that it was Ken who was not giving us back our shares or giving out dividends. That said he has never said that "MSD has told us to not give back shares or pay out dividends." but he has hinted at "To not fuck ourselves over and give MSD more evidence/cause, we will be holding shares and dividends until the situation is over with."

MSD isn't blocking our shares, Ken is picking between a Catch 22 (Give us our shares and pay divs so we stop going after him with Lawyers or Hold our shares and don't pay Divs so MSD has less to go on.) looking for the path of least harm. Does that mean I agree with his decision? No. But I understand why he is doing it, I don't need Ken to explain to me why he is holding our shares and I understand why he won't verify them. The less he talks about shares and address concerns about share holders, the less information the MSD can pull from the horse mouth himself and the more information they have to find for themselves. But again, this does not mean I agree with him. 

On the share front, I don't think Ken has lied about that. He has no reason to lie, he has nothing to gain. He knows and has stated and acknowledges our shares, it won't cost him money to list him and will get a lot of pressure off of his back.

[neilol-real]

I can promise you we will all STFU and stop contacting people if we can verify our shares and if progress is made in the direction of trading. Not acting fast on this is going to end in pain for everybody

This is accurate. Issuing unregulated securities without KYC/AML and trading on an unregulated exchange draws an investigation from MSD, but not necessarily crippling action - this organization exits to protect the people. MSD doesn't HAVE to act, beyond inevitable fines, if they believe no one is being harmed and there aren't overwhelming complaints.

Withholding shares with no ability to redeem or trade with no path to liquidity brings about allegations of fraud. We are past a reasonable amount of time after Bitfunder collapse to institute a new system for trading or exchanging shares. These complaints and allegations will force the MSD/SEC to act. They already have the ability to freeze bank accounts etc., and are choosing not to.

The issue here, and why I'm getting nervous, is there can be multiple cases made at this point with some credibility:

**I DO NOT believe any of these to be true, but if the case can be made the MSD will have to come in and investigate - which at this stage of the game will likely bankrupt or force a liquidation**

1. Ken might not have the ability to verify which shares belong to who. He has not proved he can do this. Why do we not have an ability to check how many shares we own?
2. Ken may be paying himself and his employees unreasonable salaries until the IPO money is gone with no intention of developing a custom chip. We have have no financial reports issued to explore and no tangible evidence suggesting a chip initiative.
3. Ken might intend to obfuscate true profits of the mining operation and not pay dividends on the agreed upon preferential schedule. We have no cost basis or idea to go on.

All of this would be fine if shareholders could exit when desired, but we are locked in without an option as the project drifts further from the original prospectus.

The lack of transparency combined with the apparent progress we are making makes it a logical consideration for shareholders to consider litigation. If you truly believe Ken never intends on giving access to shares or dividends, it makes financial sense to force a liquidation..this is the issue we are about to face.

Ken: your vague communication and lack of details is making investors antsy - you have created value and it is time to outline the plan you have to share this with investors. This project will get monumentally more difficult if the general investor base begins to suspect fraud and harass you legally. Satisfying investors is equally as important as getting the mining farm up. Focus on this. And for gods sake, resolve the refund and shipping issues. Give people free shipping or generous coupons for the inconvenience - consumer protection lawns will destroy you and happy customers are what makes a business thrive.

[BitSwe]

I want at least a couple of bitcoin from the dividend before the MSD takes action to close up shop.
Assuming there even is a profit after electricity, hardware & employment costs.

FTFY

[tempestb]

Maybe Ken should consider just buying people out that want out.  Back in July of 2013 a Bitcoin was about a hundred bucks when I purchased shares.  So I'd be happy to give up my shares and take the original Bitcoin price as a refund, subtrack whatever Satoshi was given as dividends so I come back even.  I'd be fine with this.  Ken would have his profit that he made because the value of Bitcoin went up and he could buy all his machines, and I (And anyone else) can get my/our money back.

Then the rest of you that want to hold out and wait for shares and dividends and tradings can do so and have less people who will fire-sale the shares if they ever get offered, as well as have less people to get shares of profits so you should, in theory, get more money when/if he ever does pay out.

[bitlind]

Maybe Ken should consider just buying people out that want out.  Back in July of 2013 a Bitcoin was about a hundred bucks when I purchased shares.  So I'd be happy to give up my shares and take the original Bitcoin price as a refund, subtrack whatever Satoshi was given as dividends so I come back even.  I'd be fine with this.  Ken would have his profit that he made because the value of Bitcoin went up and he could buy all his machines, and I (And anyone else) can get my/our money back.

Then the rest of you that want to hold out and wait for shares and dividends and tradings can do so and have less people who will fire-sale the shares if they ever get offered, as well as have less people to get shares of profits so you should, in theory, get more money when/if he ever does pay out.

I am surprised this is the first time I am hearing this mentioned.  A fantastic idea for Ken to shred the naysayers, make good on his guarantees, and also an opportunity for him to right the ship for those who want out.

However, we are talking about Kenneth Slaughter

[knybe]

Maybe Ken should consider just buying people out that want out.  Back in July of 2013 a Bitcoin was about a hundred bucks when I purchased shares.  So I'd be happy to give up my shares and take the original Bitcoin price as a refund, subtrack whatever Satoshi was given as dividends so I come back even.  I'd be fine with this.  Ken would have his profit that he made because the value of Bitcoin went up and he could buy all his machines, and I (And anyone else) can get my/our money back.

Then the rest of you that want to hold out and wait for shares and dividends and tradings can do so and have less people who will fire-sale the shares if they ever get offered, as well as have less people to get shares of profits so you should, in theory, get more money when/if he ever does pay out.

+1 I'd jump all over that choice.

[hazryder]

Maybe Ken should consider just buying people out that want out.  Back in July of 2013 a Bitcoin was about a hundred bucks when I purchased shares.  So I'd be happy to give up my shares and take the original Bitcoin price as a refund, subtrack whatever Satoshi was given as dividends so I come back even.  I'd be fine with this.  Ken would have his profit that he made because the value of Bitcoin went up and he could buy all his machines, and I (And anyone else) can get my/our money back.

Then the rest of you that want to hold out and wait for shares and dividends and tradings can do so and have less people who will fire-sale the shares if they ever get offered, as well as have less people to get shares of profits so you should, in theory, get more money when/if he ever does pay out.

+1 I'd jump all over that choice.

Agreed, although I believe there's still a chance for this company to be successful, I've ridden this crazy train for long enough and want to get off.

[Simon Templar]

Great idea on the surface, but when you dig deeper you find the flaws.  What about people who bought shares at 0.009?  What was the price of bitcoin then?  How could Ken verify the claims made by people who want to accept this get out clause?  What would be the legal repercussion with the SEC?  What kind of manpower would be required to see this through?  Where is the money going to come from to pay all these people who want an exit?  Who gets refused and who gets the refund when there are too many requests to honour them all?  What would be the damage to the companies resources and how would that effect the future prospects?

Instead, how about we accept the inevitable demise of ActiveMining? Ken has never realised the importance of PR even though many people have offered help in this area and stressed this point to him over and over, until they are blue in the face.  Even now he still doesn't understand that he could limit the damage by communicating with his *cough* shareholders and customers.  If I could sit down with him for half an hour and then spend a couple of hours myself writing a couple of statements then I know for a fact that things would change in an instant.  

Kens biggest problem is that he won't allow others to have a say in his business. He's over protective and thinks he knows best.  Yes, he's hard working and honest but that isn't enough.  His (and our) only hope is that he magically reaches out to us for help.  If he was man enough he would do this and ask, "Okay, what do you need me to do?"   The great irony is that Ken did this very thing which saved the company once before.  I can only hope he recognises the very serious situation he faces right now with shareholders seemingly making moves to pursue legal action.

For the love of God Ken, do what is right.  Action and words are required.  Silence and vagueness will create more damage than if you were to tell all.

E:  If Ken had listened to the Advisory Board we would have been mining with our own eAsic chips and our mining farm would have been up and running last Autumn with a tiny amount of the hashing power we have today but we would have mined thousands and thousands and thousands of coins by now. The hardware sales would have been in the tens of millions and the share price would have challenged the x50 seen by AM.  This alternative reality would have been realised if Ken hadn't pushed the Advisory Board away.  They put it on a plate for you.  All you had to do was pick up your knife and fork, but no, Ken knows best.  Ken didn't realise that time to market was more important than building the best product.  He was told but wouldn't listen.  Well Ken, it's time for you to demonstrate the benefits of knowing best and I would suggest you do that right now. (PM me for free PR service)

[hobbymd]

Great idea on the surface, but when you dig deeper you find the flaws.  What about people who bought shares at 0.009?  What was the price of bitcoin then?  How could Ken verify the claims made by people who want to accept this get out clause?  What would be the legal repercussion with the SEC?  What kind of manpower would be required to see this through?  Where is the money going to come from to pay all these people who want an exit?  Who gets refused and who gets the refund when there are too many requests to honour them all?  What would be the damage to the companies resources and how would that effect the future prospects?

Instead, how about we accept the inevitable demise of ActiveMining? Ken has never realised the importance of PR even though many people have offered help in this area and stressed this point to him over and over, until they are blue in the face.  Even now, he still doesn't understand that he could limit the damage by communicating with his *cough* shareholders and customers.  If I could sit down with him for half an hour and then spend a couple of hours myself writing a couple of statements then I know for a fact that things would change in an instant.  

Kens biggest problem is that he won't allow others to have a say in his business. He's over protective and thinks he knows best.  Yes, he's hard working and honest but that isn't enough.  His (and our) only hope is that he magically reaches out to us for help.  If he was man enough he would do this and ask, "Okay, what do you need me to do?"   The great irony is that Ken did this very thing which saved the company once before.  I can only hope he recognises the very serious situation he faces right now with shareholders seemingly making moves to pursue legal action.

For the love of God Ken, do what is right.  Action and words are required.  Silence and vagueness will create more damage than if you were to tell all.

+1


Ken, for all its worth come out and talk to your shareholders/investors before it's too late. The legal storm is building up if you don't act quickly enough. The last time we had a Q/A on irc was very helpful to relieve the tension between ken and shareholders.

[Simon Templar]

Okay then, shall we have an AMA (Ask Me Anything) session with Ken using IRC?

[LorenzoMoney]

That is a great idea!

Buy the complainers out!

Ken promised to pay .0025 bitcoin dividend to each share before he would take any profit himself.  
Before the tender, I had 169,000 shares.

169,000 times .0025 is 422.5 Bitcoin.


If any of you can convince Ken to give me 422.5 bitcoin, I will leave this forum and leave the IRC channel for ActiveMining and never again offer my opinion about Active Mining again.

Let's make the deal even better. If you really believe in Active Mining, then you surely believe Ken will eventually pay out that .0025 dividend.

If any one sends me 400 Bitcoin to an address I will provide should you express interest, I will provide you with the public address and private key of the address I used to register on BitFunder and I will give you a notarized letter sent via Fedex and a copy addressed to Ken stating that you have assumed all rights to any and all of my shares that were tendered to him by me.  That will give you an eventual 22.5 Bitcoin profit.

That would represent a 5.625 % return on your investment.

Contact me via PM or email if you are interested.

If you are still a cheerleader for Active Mining, then surely you must believe that Ken will pay out the full .0025 and that this is a great deal for you.
Since all shares are tendered to Ken already, any public acknowledgement that we made this deal would be seen by Ken and you can simply ask him to reassign those shares to a new bitcoin address.  If you do not take this offer, or if you ridicule it, it means that you really have no faith in Active Mining and it is time for you to accept that you have the Bitcoin equivalent of the Stockholm syndrome.

I am quite serious about this. I would transfer all my rights to the proceeds of those 169,000 shares to anyone who would send me 400 bitcoin.

Maybe Ken should consider just buying people out that want out.  Back in July of 2013 a Bitcoin was about a hundred bucks when I purchased shares.  So I'd be happy to give up my shares and take the original Bitcoin price as a refund, subtrack whatever Satoshi was given as dividends so I come back even.  I'd be fine with this.  Ken would have his profit that he made because the value of Bitcoin went up and he could buy all his machines, and I (And anyone else) can get my/our money back.

Then the rest of you that want to hold out and wait for shares and dividends and tradings can do so and have less people who will fire-sale the shares if they ever get offered, as well as have less people to get shares of profits so you should, in theory, get more money when/if he ever does pay out.

[drawingthesun]

Ken, you need to talk to us about what's going on and also resume dividend repayments asap, nothing is stopping you in regards to paying out a dividend.