28nm ** 1T ** 900W【JingTian miner】 in production !!!

[freebit13]

I think he's slowly realized that he no longer has that argument since Giorgio never replied and deleted his post and it was mentioned that it was posted to Innosilicon... clearly now he's moved on to the electrical regulations angle.

Don't worry there are a lot of scam trolls on these forums that like to think of themselves as scam exposers, trying to rack up post counts, hoping to be the next guy who discovered a scam, so they can feel important. It's been clear since the beginning that he has an axe to grind, but absolutely no sound proof, only assumptions and allegations and he never bothered to contact anyone who would actually know about it and back him up.

[Biffa]

Exactly, the web page with the "list of authorised resellers" is a load of old cack. Technobit is making miners using the chips, as are bitcoinultra, neither of which is listed as authorised resllers.

In fact the main authorised reseller are also being hauled over the coals because they are months late delivering as are bitmine themselves! Sounds alot like sour grapes to me.

The main point is bitmine themselves can't be trusted, they screwed all their preorder customers, and at the end of the day its just one persons (Giorgio) word against another, if bitmine are so sure that they are being ripped off then they should put some of those preorder millions where their mouth is and sue someone.

Until that happens, and they win, then all bets are off, and as a consumer I don't think it matters a whit what you buy, unless your an idiot and start shouting about all your kit all over the net no-one is going to know.

[QuestionTime]

Exactly, the web page with the "list of authorised resellers" is a load of old cack. Technobit is making miners using the chips, as are bitcoinultra, neither of which is listed as authorised resllers.

In fact the main authorised reseller are also being hauled over the coals because they are months late delivering as are bitmine themselves! Sounds alot like sour grapes to me.

The main point is bitmine themselves can't be trusted, they screwed all their preorder customers, and at the end of the day its just one persons (Giorgio) word against another, if bitmine are so sure that they are being ripped off then they should put some of those preorder millions where their mouth is and sue someone.

Until that happens, and they win, then all bets are off, and as a consumer I don't think it matters a whit what you buy, unless your an idiot and start shouting about all your kit all over the net no-one is going to know.

Technobit and others got their chips from zefir or direct from bitmine, nothing wrong there.

[QuestionTime]

Bitmine have already put up a list of authorised distributors: http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=5204. If the hardware has been originally acquired from an entity not on that list, it's most likely counterfeit or stolen.

You may assume all you want, but we have yet to see a statement from Innosilicon about this issue whereas bitmine have already made their position quite clear. On the current balance of probabilities it would appear these Chinese machines based on the 28nm CoinCraft A1 are indeed manufactured from stolen tech.

The message you keep quoting was removed which is why I said it raises a number of possibilities. While I appreciate your suspicions bringing to light these allegations, you are unable to conclusively say anything. I've made no assumptions, I just want a clear statement from bitmine regarding this manufacturer. The claims regarding stealing or counterfeiting are as you are no doubt aware very serious allegations and if they do not come forth with these allegations and stick to only non-specific cautions on their site, then I have to give JTminer the benefit of the doubt. So depending on how (and if) they respond, I will be getting the hardware working with an alternative power source and continue down the software path which is all I was originally interested in - or - I will hand the hardware over the AFP.

If you check the news http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=863, you should know bitmine is just in co-operation with some Chinese company. They just bought the chip from the Chinese company and name it as "Coincraft A1" chip. The Chinese company can also sell the A1 chip. They can call it any name they want like "ABC A1" chip. So the question comes: Does the "Coincraft A1" chip means "A1" chip？I don't think so. This is something like Mcdonalds can make their hamburger and KFC can make their own too.

We do NOT buy chips from bitmine and have no business with them.

From that link:

Designed from scratch, Bitmine’s Coincraft A1 is a third generation Bitcoin Mining IC developed by Bitmine in co-operation with a team of expert engineers from Innosilicon.

Doesn't say bitmine bought the chip from a Chinese company.

I'm assuming that the R&D funds came from bitmine and it's customers and that Innosilicon was contracted by bitmine for R&D, ergo, bitmine retains IP rights of the A1 chip. Unless the use of the A1 chip in these Chinese 28nm miners has been authorised by bitmine, what we're seeing here is corporate theft and entities being in possession of or receiving these miners, liable for a criminal offence.

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

The possibilities raised regarding the removal of that message should come second to conclusively identifying who removed the message.

Based on that quote from the CEO of bitmine (source of R&D funds and owner of chip IP) and the fact that Innosillicon (contracted design house with no foundry), JianTian, JT, Dragon, LA1THS, etc (assemblers) are not on the authorised distributors list, I can conclusively say that these Chinese machines based on the 28nm CoinCraft A1 chip have not been manufactured from hardware legitimately obtained from the owners of the chip IP, bitmine.

Bitmine can not be expected to issue a statement for every manufacturer that pops up with hardware with bitmine tech inside. I assume, therefore, that's why they've put up a list of authorised distributors of bitmine tech http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=5204. However, further confirmation can only be a good thing. For the sake of everyone involved I wish you all the best in this endeavour and encourage you to publish the request for clarification from bitmine and any associated correspondence here in the public domain ideally in another thread.

"I can conclusively say that these Chinese machines based on the 28nm CoinCraft A1 chip have not been manufactured from hardware legitimately obtained from the owners of the chip IP, bit mine."


A few things i'd like to point out:

1) Bitmine said they were the owner of the ip inside the chip, it doesn't mean only Bitmine can sell the chip. IP inside doesn't mean a lot. you need a bunch of money to turn into a real chip.
2) Bitmine said they are the vendor of "Coincraft A1", and they own the trademark "CoinCraft" , so only Bitmine and his authorized channel can sell "CoinCraft" A1, right?
3) JTminer never said they use "CoinCraft" A1.
4) while JTMiner are day and night busy producing their 1000+ machines, someone are wasting time on nonsense issues
5) i happen to know, there is a video showing their mining facility. it's serious business, and large investment. bitcoins world has lot's scam. but this time, give some respect before you are 100% percent sure, and mind your language.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86hZGZAMUHQ‍

1) If the owner of the chip design has not given permission to use the design, using the design is corporate theft, period.
2), 3), 4) ... grow up.
5) So long as that equipment stays in China I don't foresee any short-term problems with the operation

[QuestionTime]

I guess the reason THAT POST was removed because I posted it to the bosses of innosilicion, and they disputed the claim.

So you say.

[Biffa]

Exactly, the web page with the "list of authorised resellers" is a load of old cack. Technobit is making miners using the chips, as are bitcoinultra, neither of which is listed as authorised resllers.

In fact the main authorised reseller are also being hauled over the coals because they are months late delivering as are bitmine themselves! Sounds alot like sour grapes to me.

The main point is bitmine themselves can't be trusted, they screwed all their preorder customers, and at the end of the day its just one persons (Giorgio) word against another, if bitmine are so sure that they are being ripped off then they should put some of those preorder millions where their mouth is and sue someone.

Until that happens, and they win, then all bets are off, and as a consumer I don't think it matters a whit what you buy, unless your an idiot and start shouting about all your kit all over the net no-one is going to know.

Technobit and others got their chips from zefir or direct from bitmine, nothing wrong there.

You cant have it both ways. They aren't on the page so according to you they can't be trusted.

Questiontime, please disclose your financial or professional interest in this matter. Are you employed by bitmine, or stand to gain financially from them in any way? Are you a customer of theirs? Perhaps if so you could let us know how you feel about the delays?

Are you a perhaps a legal professional? if so you should be declaring whether your advice has any legal merit or if you are just a keyboard warrior who is getting a backhander for badmouthing any opposition.

I just dont get why you are on a crusade regarding this, innocent until proven otherwise, its not like these chinese 1TH miner manufacturers are scammers they are providing hardware and it appears to work fine. All we have is you, whoever you are, kicking up a fuss, and Giorgio the CEO of Bitmine, whoever he is, and his words.

[wpgdeez]

I want one of these but don't have enough BTC left, spent it all on Ants!

[QuestionTime]

Exactly, the web page with the "list of authorised resellers" is a load of old cack. Technobit is making miners using the chips, as are bitcoinultra, neither of which is listed as authorised resllers.

In fact the main authorised reseller are also being hauled over the coals because they are months late delivering as are bitmine themselves! Sounds alot like sour grapes to me.

The main point is bitmine themselves can't be trusted, they screwed all their preorder customers, and at the end of the day its just one persons (Giorgio) word against another, if bitmine are so sure that they are being ripped off then they should put some of those preorder millions where their mouth is and sue someone.

Until that happens, and they win, then all bets are off, and as a consumer I don't think it matters a whit what you buy, unless your an idiot and start shouting about all your kit all over the net no-one is going to know.

Technobit and others got their chips from zefir or direct from bitmine, nothing wrong there.

You cant have it both ways. They aren't on the page so according to you they can't be trusted.

zefir is on that page and from their posts it seems Technobit and others got their chips from zefir or directly from bitmine - perfectly legit.

[freebit13]

You keep quoting a 'retracted' statement and the owner of that statement is yet to reply to a few people to explain fully if his statement is legit, if it was deleted/moderated, he can come and let everyone know what happened and expose it all for everyone to see, it's really easy to do, but still nothing...

Take a walz over to the bitmine thread and you'll notice what a complete mess they are in, scam accusations, locked thread and all and it seems as though Giorgio is quite comfortable with deleting statements, even on their website. By what is going on there I don't believe anything that has been said so far and I doubt they secured anything in the rush to amass money... it's starting to look more and more like a BFL every day.

[seeksilence]

Thanks for reasonable people's support and also thanks QuestionTime for a debate to make things clear. BTW, QuestionTime made a big mistake to challenge us instead of other agent to sell copycatted miner since JTminer is the original .

A lot of information come out, let's do a summary:
1. dimension: 426*380*200, smaller size than other miners.
2. Can do overclock.
   i. extra power supply can give you the ability to over clock. The boards are equipped with 32+A current capacity power supply per chip:), in 25G/s mode, it only consume 20A per chip. so it has room to do the over clock.
   ii. Linear Tech power supply + careful design gives the ripple only at 20mv:), it will stabilize chips using the higher clock without too much HW error
  
   Kind reminder: For those who bought a copycatted miner from other reseller, please be very cautious to do overclock, it will burn the chip and board.
3.  JT miner spend lot's of effort in the firmware and Pi side. they use the ST MCU. the firmware is written from 0. after JTminer use the ST MCU. some vendors' solution seems to have interests in ST MCU too:)
4. The Pi board can drive up to 8 boards (in lab we do), and each MCU to control the two SPI high speed chain. in this way, give the whole system more flexibility and scalability.
5. We do not have authorized distributor now. Only a few sample units are being sent out.
6. The order for 1200T is to be completed soon. We also have chips in stock for future business.
7. Video link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86hZGZAMUHQ‍

Related posts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5564356#msg5564356
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5561528#msg5561528

---------------------
Chip related question:
Still wait for an answer from giorgiomassa for the question (seems we will wait for a long time ):
Does Innosilicon have right to sell the chips or not?  

Why the message from giorgiomassa on March 04 QuestionTime keep quoting was removed?

I guess the reason THAT POST was removed because I posted it to the bosses of innosilicion, and they disputed the claim.

A few things i'd like to point out:

1) Bitmine said they were the owner of the ip inside the chip, it doesn't mean only Bitmine can sell the chip. IP inside doesn't mean a lot. you need a bunch of money to turn into a real chip.
2) Bitmine said they are the vendor of "Coincraft A1", and they own the trademark "CoinCraft" , so only Bitmine and his authorized channel can sell "CoinCraft" A1, right?
3) JTminer never said they use "CoinCraft" A1.
4) while JTMiner are day and night busy producing their 1000+ machines, someone are wasting time on nonsense issues
5) i happen to know, there is a video showing their mining facility. it's serious business, and large investment. bitcoins world has lot's scam. but this time, give some respect before you are 100% percent sure, and mind your language.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86hZGZAMUHQ‍

[QuestionTime]

You keep quoting a 'retracted' statement and the owner of that statement is yet to reply to a few people to explain fully if his statement is legit, if it was deleted/moderated, he can come and let everyone know what happened and expose it all for everyone to see, it's really easy to do, but still nothing...

Take a walz over to the bitmine thread and you'll notice what a complete mess they are in, scam accusations, locked thread and all and it seems as though Giorgio is quite comfortable with deleting statements, even on their website. By what is going on there I don't believe anything that has been said so far and I doubt they secured anything in the rush to amass money... it's starting to look more and more like a BFL every day.

Bitmine have already made themselves quite clear on the issue and until they've made a statement retracting the previous statement it's much more likely the the statement was deleted/moderated rather than retracted.

If you check the news http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=863, you should know bitmine is just in co-operation with some Chinese company. They just bought the chip from the Chinese company and name it as "Coincraft A1" chip. The Chinese company can also sell the A1 chip. They can call it any name they want like "ABC A1" chip. So the question comes: Does the "Coincraft A1" chip means "A1" chip？I don't think so. This is something like Mcdonalds can make their hamburger and KFC can make their own too.

We do NOT buy chips from bitmine and have no business with them.

From that link:

Designed from scratch, Bitmine’s Coincraft A1 is a third generation Bitcoin Mining IC developed by Bitmine in co-operation with a team of expert engineers from Innosilicon.

Doesn't say bitmine bought the chip from a Chinese company.

I'm assuming that the R&D funds came from bitmine and it's customers and that Innosilicon was contracted by bitmine for R&D, ergo, bitmine retains IP rights of the A1 chip. Unless the use of the A1 chip in these Chinese 28nm miners has been authorised by bitmine, what we're seeing here is corporate theft and entities being in possession of or receiving these miners, liable for a criminal offence.

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

Authorised distributors of bitmine tech: http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=5204 - unless the chips were sourced from one of these guys or bitmine themselves it's corporate theft.

Furthermore, we have yet to hear anything from Innosilicon to suggest that they have obtained the rights from bitmine to produce these chips for sale.

[QuestionTime]

Thanks for reasonable people's support and also thanks QuestionTime for a debate to make things clear. BTW, QuestionTime made a big mistake to challenge us instead of other agent to sell copycatted miner since JTminer is the original .

A lot of information come out, let's do a summary:
1. dimension: 426*380*200, smaller size than other miners.
2. Can do overclock.
   i. extra power supply can give you the ability to over clock. The boards are equipped with 32+A current capacity power supply per chip:), in 25G/s mode, it only consume 20A per chip. so it has room to do the over clock.
   ii. Linear Tech power supply + careful design gives the ripple only at 20mv:), it will stabilize chips using the higher clock without too much HW error
  
   Kind reminder: For those who bought a copycatted miner from other reseller, please be very cautious to do overclock, it will burn the chip and board.
3.  JT miner spend lot's of effort in the firmware and Pi side. they use the ST MCU. the firmware is written from 0. after JTminer use the ST MCU. some vendors' solution seems to have interests in ST MCU too:)
4. The Pi board can drive up to 8 boards (in lab we do), and each MCU to control the two SPI high speed chain. in this way, give the whole system more flexibility and scalability.
5. We do not have authorized distributor now. Only a few sample units are being sent out.
6. The order for 1200T is to be completed soon. We also have chips in stock for future business.
7. Video link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86hZGZAMUHQ‍

Related posts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5564356#msg5564356
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5561528#msg5561528

8. Manufactured with stolen chips - good chance of criminal liability if in possession outside China

[silver71]

Exactly, the web page with the "list of authorised resellers" is a load of old cack. Technobit is making miners using the chips, as are bitcoinultra, neither of which is listed as authorised resllers.

In fact the main authorised reseller are also being hauled over the coals because they are months late delivering as are bitmine themselves! Sounds alot like sour grapes to me.

The main point is bitmine themselves can't be trusted, they screwed all their preorder customers, and at the end of the day its just one persons (Giorgio) word against another, if bitmine are so sure that they are being ripped off then they should put some of those preorder millions where their mouth is and sue someone.

Until that happens, and they win, then all bets are off, and as a consumer I don't think it matters a whit what you buy, unless your an idiot and start shouting about all your kit all over the net no-one is going to know.

Technobit and others got their chips from zefir or direct from bitmine, nothing wrong there.

Technobit does not produce desks or rigs, they produce blades and that is different since it'a semi assembled product, not finished product, therefore no distribution omission, however they are credible.

[skyfromwell]

It is as simple as that.

Bitmine and Innosilicon worked together to produce the chips, so both of them have rights to produce/resell the chips.

But even as Bitmine had an early start on availability of chips and great cheap costs, they FAILED to deliver their system successfuly and on time.

So AFTER my systems of 60T RUNNING over 1 month, and start to sell to public, Bitmine's system still NOT seeying anywhere.

From pespective of marketing strategy, this accusation is just a tactic to slow down our sales.

[JT Miner]

Thanks for reasonable people's support and also thanks QuestionTime for a debate to make things clear. BTW, QuestionTime made a big mistake to challenge us instead of other agent to sell copycatted miner since JTminer is the original .

A lot of information come out, let's do a summary:
1. dimension: 426*380*200, smaller size than other miners.
2. Can do overclock.
   i. extra power supply can give you the ability to over clock. The boards are equipped with 32+A current capacity power supply per chip:), in 25G/s mode, it only consume 20A per chip. so it has room to do the over clock.
   ii. Linear Tech power supply + careful design gives the ripple only at 20mv:), it will stabilize chips using the higher clock without too much HW error
  
   Kind reminder: For those who bought a copycatted miner from other reseller, please be very cautious to do overclock, it will burn the chip and board.
3.  JT miner spend lot's of effort in the firmware and Pi side. they use the ST MCU. the firmware is written from 0. after JTminer use the ST MCU. some vendors' solution seems to have interests in ST MCU too:)
4. The Pi board can drive up to 8 boards (in lab we do), and each MCU to control the two SPI high speed chain. in this way, give the whole system more flexibility and scalability.
5. We do not have authorized distributor now. Only a few sample units are being sent out.
6. The order for 1200T is to be completed soon. We also have chips in stock for future business.
7. Video link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86hZGZAMUHQ‍

Related posts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5564356#msg5564356
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5561528#msg5561528

8. Manufactured with stolen chips - good chance of criminal liability if in possession outside China

"Manufactured with stolen chips"

The statement you published here is VERY STRONG allegation. Stealing is a CRIME. If you present the wrong information and injure the reputation of a person or company, you disobey the law and the injured will reserve the right to sue you.

PS:Every IP address on the Internet  is logged and traceable, and every statement you made will be evidence presented to the court.

[JointDoctor]

I´m a little bit confused.... how many representatives for the JingTian miner is on bitcointalk?

(Seeksilence, skyfromwell and JT miner)

[kendog77]

It is as simple as that.

Bitmine and Innosilicon worked together to produce the chips, so both of them have rights to produce/resell the chips.

But even as Bitmine had an early start on availability of chips and great cheap costs, they FAILED to deliver their system successfuly and on time.

So AFTER my systems of 60T RUNNING over 1 month, and start to sell to public, Bitmine's system still NOT seeying anywhere.

From pespective of marketing strategy, this accusation is just a tactic to slow down our sales.

I agree. Both Bitmine and Bitmine and Innosilicon worked together to develop the chips, and no-one has posted any proof as to exactly what legal rights Innosilicon has to resell the chips, but it's certainly plausible that they do have some resale agreement based on the contract between the two companies. Innosilicon could have paid for part of the development in order to be able to retain some ownership of the IP.

It sounds like QuestionTime is simply spreading FUD to try to show down a potential competitor to Bitmine. Either post proof to back up your claims of IP theft or STFU.

[kendog77]

I´m a little bit confused.... how many representatives for the JingTian miner is on bitcointalk?

(Seeksilence, skyfromwell and JT miner)

It is confusing, but I think at least three different Chinese companies are currently offering similar 1TH products that all seem to be using the Bitmine A1 chips.

[JointDoctor]

I´m a little bit confused.... how many representatives for the JingTian miner is on bitcointalk?

(Seeksilence, skyfromwell and JT miner)

It is confusing, but I think at least three different Chinese companies are currently offering similar 1TH products that all seem to be using the Bitmine A1 chips.

There´s more like 4+ different companies selling these 1TH miners. They´re all using the same blade design, A1 chips, raspberries, etc... the only difference between them is the casing and the color of the cables (From what have been revealed so far).

[GodfatherBond]

I´m a little bit confused.... how many representatives for the JingTian miner is on bitcointalk?

(Seeksilence, skyfromwell and JT miner)

It is confusing, but I think at least three different Chinese companies are currently offering similar 1TH products that all seem to be using the Bitmine A1 chips.

There´s more like 4+ different companies selling these 1TH miners. They´re all using the same blade design, A1 chips, raspberries, etc... the only difference between them is the casing and the color of the cables (From what have been revealed so far).

Yes,... and pricing from $5000 to $8000

Generally funny, I have ordered miners from Bitmine, already two months late. Now i can get faster from Chinese manufacturers than directly from Bitminy. Crazy.