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Question: How would you rate Bitcoin Savings & Trust?
5 - Excellent
4 - Very Good
3 - Good
2 - Fair
1 - Poor
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Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

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Author Topic: Bitcoin Savings and Trust | Home | Closed  (Read 774199 times)
Raoul Duke
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July 02, 2012, 11:46:18 PM
 #1161

Reputation ....... it's created by what you do.

Would that include being more likely to get a response to an attack from someone who you have no dealings with vs that of an honest question put forth by someone who trusts you with an investment ?

If you have a problem with what I respond to in-thread you can always contact me directly.

Speaking about that, would you be kind enough to rate me on OTC?
I would like to rate you, but before i have some ratings I can't do it. Nor to you or to any of the others I've done business with before.

Thank you. You've been very kind to me so far.

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imsaguy
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July 02, 2012, 11:52:44 PM
 #1162

Here's something to consider..

The trust accounts seem structured to manage other accounts.  Perhaps the security deposit is to make sure you've got skin in the game so you don't screw those sub accounts. Just a thought. 

The nay sayers have said their nay, now GTFO.  No one is asking to be warned (we've already been warned) and we aren't asking to be converted. You're seriously wasting everyone's time, including your own.

Coming Soon!™ © imsaguy 2011-2013, All rights reserved.

EIEIO:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60117.0

Shades Minoco Collection Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65989
Payment Address: http://btc.to/5r6
miscreanity
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July 02, 2012, 11:54:29 PM
 #1163

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July 03, 2012, 12:04:42 AM
 #1164

Going to wait and see how all this pans out.

I send a PM but I'm sure you're flooded with them right now. Perhaps some more information about the requirements for opening/converting to a trust account could be posted, since many people are interested.

Ah bugger that. Some questions I have (as a owner of an older account who does not manage pass throughs or others peoples money):

1. If you cross the 5k BTC mark does your account automatically become a trusted account if you fullfil the other requirements or are normal accounts just not allowed a balance above 5k?
2. Is interest paid on the 500 BTC security deposit?
3. What is the purpose of the security deposit?
4. In the other topic you started about the business you said the business could go on for a very long time with a similar profit margin. If this is true then why reduce the interest so dramatically?
5. Are there any personal advatages left for me based on the relative seniority of my account (both in age and in size)?

Thanks in advance

Basically the same questions I have. I'm not operating a PPT in the traditional sense, but have several friends who have invested with me in person.

1D7FJWRzeKa4SLmTznd3JpeNU13L1ErEco
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July 03, 2012, 12:21:35 AM
 #1165

It would be great to get a detailed rundown of exactly what rates you will be paying the trust accounts
Vandroiy
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July 03, 2012, 12:46:30 AM
 #1166

Reputation? Since when have it tried to SELL SELL SELL anything I do?  Reputation is not something you say, it's created by what you do.

This matches a politician's skill in evading to answer the questions posed.

I merely asked for an explanation of the extreme dependence between the size of individual deposits and returns. This is a classic HYIP aspect, and the current changes should make an explanation even more difficult. This is a pretty clear point that does not call for hiding in fancy wording.


I know for a fact that Pirate has been refusing new accounts, and I talk about accounts who would give him thousands of BTC to earn if his plan was to just run away with it.
3 days ago I got one of the persons I referred asking me why would'n Pirate accept him/respond to him.
Does that really fit with the story of the link you posted?

You're just a jealous son of a bitch, (...)

psy... let me answer that. Yes, the link makes pretty clear why a Ponzi often desires to put limits on its growth, see his initial trouble with "The Whale". Limiting growth lengthens the lifetime of a Ponzi, increasing overall returns. It might help to understand my position before trying to flame it away. Strange how it's the same users and the same types of posts, I only ever remember you from pro-pirate posts.

If it makes you feel better, I'll be keeping this post of yours for later reference, just as I encourage everyone to nag me with mine if I turn out wrong.


The nay sayers have said their nay, now GTFO.  No one is asking to be warned (we've already been warned) and we aren't asking to be converted. You're seriously wasting everyone's time, including your own.

It doesn't take an oracle to guess whom my posts are not directed at, and why I'm angry. The more interesting question is, why are so many "investors" angry, and what purpose does a post serve that tells me to fuck off instead of addressing any arguments? If this were just about silently reaping returns, there's really not much reason to engage in enormous flamewars. But this is about dragging in more people fast, and the susceptible ones only. This is why the forum flamewar becomes important, and this is why I deliberately broke the usual forum etiquette.

Well, you are right insofar as I'm running out of time I can spend whiteknighting. I'll just conclude for now that there wasn't a single argument that made sense to me, the counters came almost exclusively from users I was already tracking for excessive BS&T "discussion" involvement, and they mostly consist of "GTFO" or copypasta-quality text to bury my posts.

Well, so I will "STFU and GTFO" for now. There's only a single account left I was probing for the blacklist, which is quite the quota given the short time-frame of this little intermezzo.
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July 03, 2012, 01:10:23 AM
 #1167

This matches a politician's skill in evading to answer the questions posed.

You're right, just like a politician. As Pirate offered, actions speak volumes.

It doesn't take an oracle to guess whom my posts are not directed at, and why I'm angry. The more interesting question is, why are so many "investors" angry, and what purpose does a post serve that tells me to fuck off instead of addressing any arguments? If this were just about silently reaping returns, there's really not much reason to engage in enormous flamewars. But this is about dragging in more people fast, and the susceptible ones only. This is why the forum flamewar becomes important, and this is why I deliberately broke the usual forum etiquette.

So what valid reason do you have to be angry? I haven't bothered following your rants: are you invested with Pirate?

And why is the incentive to bring the 'susceptible' into the core so weak? Many PPTs hold reserves in case of a Pirate default. If anything, the new policy tries to strike a very delicate balance and protect those who make the decision to partake.

Not to mention the fact that 'personal responsibility' includes the word personal for a reason.

Have you ever run a legitimate business?
Vandroiy
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July 03, 2012, 01:33:44 AM
 #1168

So what valid reason do you have to be angry? I haven't bothered following your rants: are you invested with Pirate?

And why is the incentive to bring the 'susceptible' into the core so weak? Many PPTs hold reserves in case of a Pirate default. If anything, the new policy tries to strike a very delicate balance and protect those who make the decision to partake.

Not to mention the fact that 'personal responsibility' includes the word personal for a reason.

Have you ever run a legitimate business?

Valid reason to be angry? How about "damaging the public image and stability of Bitcoin at a time that is absolutely irreplaceable for reaching critical mass, which could change global economics forever," is that a valid reason for you?

The rest of that post is going nowhere. If I assume the business to be a Ponzi, there is no protection in changing rates one way or another. Making people responsible for their mistakes does not mean you can scam them. Whatever businesses I have run, my track record in Bitcoin speculation should speak for itself, just look up my posts around trend changes. The question who has ever run a legitimate business is an interesting one though, and I won't take gpumax for an answer. Oh, right, I'm not talking with Pirate. I tend to forget, the posts sometimes seem as if you are talking in his stead.
imsaguy
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July 03, 2012, 01:58:11 AM
 #1169

Reputation? Since when have it tried to SELL SELL SELL anything I do?  Reputation is not something you say, it's created by what you do.

This matches a politician's skill in evading to answer the questions posed.

I merely asked for an explanation of the extreme dependence between the size of individual deposits and returns. This is a classic HYIP aspect, and the current changes should make an explanation even more difficult. This is a pretty clear point that does not call for hiding in fancy wording.


I know for a fact that Pirate has been refusing new accounts, and I talk about accounts who would give him thousands of BTC to earn if his plan was to just run away with it.
3 days ago I got one of the persons I referred asking me why would'n Pirate accept him/respond to him.
Does that really fit with the story of the link you posted?

You're just a jealous son of a bitch, (...)

psy... let me answer that. Yes, the link makes pretty clear why a Ponzi often desires to put limits on its growth, see his initial trouble with "The Whale". Limiting growth lengthens the lifetime of a Ponzi, increasing overall returns. It might help to understand my position before trying to flame it away. Strange how it's the same users and the same types of posts, I only ever remember you from pro-pirate posts.

If it makes you feel better, I'll be keeping this post of yours for later reference, just as I encourage everyone to nag me with mine if I turn out wrong.


The nay sayers have said their nay, now GTFO.  No one is asking to be warned (we've already been warned) and we aren't asking to be converted. You're seriously wasting everyone's time, including your own.

It doesn't take an oracle to guess whom my posts are not directed at, and why I'm angry. The more interesting question is, why are so many "investors" angry, and what purpose does a post serve that tells me to fuck off instead of addressing any arguments? If this were just about silently reaping returns, there's really not much reason to engage in enormous flamewars. But this is about dragging in more people fast, and the susceptible ones only. This is why the forum flamewar becomes important, and this is why I deliberately broke the usual forum etiquette.

Well, you are right insofar as I'm running out of time I can spend whiteknighting. I'll just conclude for now that there wasn't a single argument that made sense to me, the counters came almost exclusively from users I was already tracking for excessive BS&T "discussion" involvement, and they mostly consist of "GTFO" or copypasta-quality text to bury my posts.

Well, so I will "STFU and GTFO" for now. There's only a single account left I was probing for the blacklist, which is quite the quota given the short time-frame of this little intermezzo.

I get angry because you imply you are smarter than the rest of us or that you know something that the rest of us don't.  Either put up or shutup.  What you've offered already isn't anything knew.  Try coming up with something that isn't a repeat a someone else's argument.

Coming Soon!™ © imsaguy 2011-2013, All rights reserved.

EIEIO:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60117.0

Shades Minoco Collection Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65989
Payment Address: http://btc.to/5r6
Vandroiy
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July 03, 2012, 02:19:13 AM
 #1170

I get angry because you imply you are smarter than the rest of us or that you know something that the rest of us don't.  Either put up or shutup.  What you've offered already isn't anything knew.  Try coming up with something that isn't a repeat a someone else's argument.

Nope... I'm honestly out of energy and time. This battle is just too time-consuming to keep up.

I admit many arguments have been there in similar form. But they were not refuted, so I tried to clarify them to the best of my ability. I really posted everything I can safely post for now, and I believe it suffices to raise doubt, even if it has been said before.

I've never claimed the leaders and defenders of the scheme are stupid. In fact, this is well constructed and well orchestrated. The discussion is also putting on quite some pressure, which explains why only a handful of skeptics remain active. Were this Eve Online again, I would be cheering for many of the guys I want to blacklist here. Because these people are good at it, and I like good style regardless of the art.

But this isn't just some fun. It's not just about a few hundred thousand dollars. I'm not claiming to know for sure, but Bitcoin right now looks like a chaotic system; it's important what happens next. We need to cooperate to make this work, to decide at our future's crossroad, and there may be no way back if we choose the wrong way.

Go ahead, bury the posts again, I can't stay in front of this screen a minute longer. It's past 4am, I will miss a talk tomorrow because of this. And know what? It was probably worth it.
miscreanity
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July 03, 2012, 02:24:11 AM
 #1171

Valid reason to be angry? How about "damaging the public image and stability of Bitcoin at a time that is absolutely irreplaceable for reaching critical mass, which could change global economics forever," is that a valid reason for you?

Where is the damage? Obviously, your belief is worthy of anger and hostility and attempts at defamation.

Maybe you're right. Maybe people are looking to get involved with Bitcoin, but stop because of that evil BS&T thing which is apparently more popular than Bitcoin itself. It must be obvious that everyone who installs a Bitcoin client is instantly enrolled in Pirate's program as well.

The rest of that post is going nowhere. If I assume the business to be a Ponzi, there is no protection in changing rates one way or another. Making people responsible for their mistakes does not mean you can scam them. Whatever businesses I have run, my track record in Bitcoin speculation should speak for itself, just look up my posts around trend changes. The question who has ever run a legitimate business is an interesting one though, and I won't take gpumax for an answer. Oh, right, I'm not talking with Pirate. I tend to forget, the posts sometimes seem as if you are talking in his stead.

You're going to leave just when your own arguments are being debunked? Not very sportsmanlike.

If you believe this to be a Ponzi, is anyone forcing you to put your money into it like a bank bailout? Is anyone with a BS&T deposit being forced to do anything, even if it might seem too good to be true for most?

I'll make this as easy as possible for you: speculation in markets has nothing to do with running a business, and if people never have to make their own determination on whether something is a scam or not, how would they ever know? What it you've gotten so used to assuming everything is a Ponzi scheme that you can't recognize a valid enterprise?

Has there been any wrongdoing? Do you have any way of proving so? Are your funds involved? If not, then you've stated your case as others have been for months. It's been mildly amusing; now please take the Don Quixote routine and be on your way.
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July 03, 2012, 02:29:31 AM
 #1172

But this isn't just some fun. It's not just about a few hundred thousand dollars. I'm not claiming to know for sure, but Bitcoin right now looks like a chaotic system; it's important what happens next. We need to cooperate to make this work, to decide at our future's crossroad, and there may be no way back if we choose the wrong way.

Right, don't take a chance on anything; don't rock the boat; maintain the status quo whether it's good or bad.

Fin.
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July 03, 2012, 02:46:20 AM
 #1173

I get angry because you imply you are smarter than the rest of us or that you know something that the rest of us don't.  Either put up or shutup.  What you've offered already isn't anything knew.  Try coming up with something that isn't a repeat a someone else's argument.

Wait, I missed a bunch of stuff I guess.  Why are we angry?  Give me the TL;DR version.  Are we on another Ponzi cycle?
Getting a bit fuzzy are we?

…I told you you shouldn't take a swig every time they accuse pirate of running ponzis Sad

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July 03, 2012, 02:56:35 AM
 #1174

Wait, I missed a bunch of stuff I guess.  Why are we angry?  Give me the TL;DR version.  Are we on another Ponzi cycle?

Yes, another ponzi cycle.  Vandroiy is the only one who seems angry, and perhaps imsaguy telling him to shut up.

TL;DR Vandroiy seems to think BS&T is hurting the bitcoin economy.  Though the coins we get each Monday would indicate otherwise.

I think I'll go back to reading only the OP, it saves a lot of time.   Wink

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July 03, 2012, 03:21:16 AM
 #1175

Vandroiy raises some good points, in regards to similarities to the eve ponzi. hell, im still not sure this isn't a ponzi, and unless your name is pirate no one else can be sure.

either way, i'm still invested! Cheesy
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July 03, 2012, 03:29:36 AM
 #1176

Let's keep it simple for starters. We could really use a hint as to why returns are so strongly dependent on the size of individual deposits, if not for the reason documented in the Currin Trading Ponzi (http://web.archive.org/web/20091026234156/http://geocities.com/currintrading/ On a side note, the text also documented neatly why an operator rarely replies to garbage like this).

An interesting read at least... Here's the link to the second page if anyone is interested.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090807121852/http://geocities.com/currintrading/bank.html

@Vandroiy
I think everyone is trying to say: WE ARE AWARE OF THE RISKS! I for one am small time when it comes to my bankroll, and I enjoy the excitement of weekly interest payments and the allure of "doubling up" with the PPT's. If for some reason I loose, God knows it won't be because I wasn't warned. Let us have our fun in peace.

Thank you.
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July 03, 2012, 03:33:31 AM
 #1177

Let's keep it simple for starters. We could really use a hint as to why returns are so strongly dependent on the size of individual deposits, if not for the reason documented in the Currin Trading Ponzi (http://web.archive.org/web/20091026234156/http://geocities.com/currintrading/ On a side note, the text also documented neatly why an operator rarely replies to garbage like this).

An interesting read at least... Here's the link to the second page if anyone is interested.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090807121852/http://geocities.com/currintrading/bank.html

@Vandroiy
I think everyone is trying to say: WE ARE AWARE OF THE RISKS! I for one am small time when it comes to my bankroll, and I enjoy the excitement of weekly interest payments and the allure of "doubling up" with the PPT's. If for some reason I loose, God knows it won't be because I wasn't warned. Let us have our fun in peace.

Thank you.

Thanks for the 2nd link! I was so disappointed earlier.
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July 03, 2012, 03:56:31 AM
 #1178

Ah bugger that. Some questions I have (as a owner of an older account who does not manage pass throughs or others peoples money):

1. If you cross the 5k BTC mark does your account automatically become a trusted account if you fullfil the other requirements or are normal accounts just not allowed a balance above 5k?
2. Is interest paid on the 500 BTC security deposit?
3. What is the purpose of the security deposit?
4. In the other topic you started about the business you said the business could go on for a very long time with a similar profit margin. If this is true then why reduce the interest so dramatically?
5. Are there any personal advatages left for me based on the relative seniority of my account (both in age and in size)?

Thanks in advance

6. Would pass-throughs (such as GLBSE bonds) be considered "trust accounts" if the issuers fulfill the other requirements?

Pirate, could you please answer these questions?

1GLADMZ5tL4HkS6BAWPfJLeZJCDHAd9Fr3 - LQ6Zx8v7fHVBiDX5Lmhbp6oEDB7dUFjANu
GPG 0xF219D5BB3C467E12 - Litecoin Forum
imsaguy
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July 03, 2012, 05:01:29 AM
 #1179

I get angry because you imply you are smarter than the rest of us or that you know something that the rest of us don't.  Either put up or shutup.  What you've offered already isn't anything knew.  Try coming up with something that isn't a repeat a someone else's argument.

Wait, I missed a bunch of stuff I guess.  Why are we angry?  Give me the TL;DR version.  Are we on another Ponzi cycle?
Getting a bit fuzzy are we?

…I told you you shouldn't take a swig every time they accuse pirate of running ponzis Sad

I thought it was going to be a safe drinking game.  Not like the one where you drink every time Dr. House says something medically insipid.  Talk about blacking out.

I say we make a drinking game based on the number of posts you delete.

Coming Soon!™ © imsaguy 2011-2013, All rights reserved.

EIEIO:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60117.0

Shades Minoco Collection Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65989
Payment Address: http://btc.to/5r6
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July 03, 2012, 05:06:10 AM
 #1180

Trust Account
Trust accounts are considered partner accounts, designed for members that manage sub-accounts.  
  • Benefits:
    • Rates Starting At 5%*
    • Unlimited Deposits
    • Create & Manage Sub-Accounts
    • Trusted Account Verification Seal

Starts at 5%?  How high can it go and what determines the rate?

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