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Question: How would you rate Bitcoin Savings & Trust?
5 - Excellent
4 - Very Good
3 - Good
2 - Fair
1 - Poor
No comment just show me the results.

Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

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Author Topic: Bitcoin Savings and Trust | Home | Closed  (Read 774141 times)
pirateat40
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July 03, 2012, 09:10:33 PM
 #1301


We're pages into the latter. Still no explanation, still it looks like Pirateat40's decision is a massive loss for him unless it is a Ponzi. Still nothing on the need for insanely large individual accounts to get the 7% yield.


Vandroiy,

You want me to tell you how I run my business?  That's your end result, right?  You don't care what happens, I tell you what it is and you'd ruin it for my lenders or I don't tell and you keep up the never ending slander.

We got the message, you've warned everyone.  I'll be sure to post that "YOU WERE RIGHT" when things come crashing down.


No no... no! We're not stopping, we're going to keep repeating the same red flags until you can't find anyone new to "invest" with you before answering some crucial questions. You see, we're not exposing you so those who already take in to their account the very high risk that you are a fraud before they "invest" with you, no no, we are trying to save those unsuspecting naive people without which, if you are the fraud that we think you are, you're going to go bust ASAP.

Right because this forum are the center of the Bitcoin universe, right?  At this point, there's nothing you can do about it.  Keep trying though. Smiley

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July 03, 2012, 09:10:47 PM
 #1302

We covered this. We're not necessarily trying to convince you but rather the unsuspecting naive latecomer in hopes to prevent more people to lose money when the scam does eventually go bust and hopefully if we ward off all of them, sooner rather than later.

Why? Are you really so obsessive about Pirate, or do you actually want to bear latecomers' offspring?

Do you realize what the OP is? That's right - nothing to do with warnings about a Ponzi. By continuing to post here, you bump this thread to the top. Latecomers will see the thread title. How many will read through 69 pages only to come across the Ponzi posts and have an epiphany? What makes that your responsibility?

You'd be more effective at furthering your anti-Pirate cause by creating your own thread and bumping it regularly, or by finding employment at the RIAA, MPAA, US Congress, UK Parliament, or any number of do-gooder 'We know how to live your life better than you do' socialist organizations.

There have been some very good posts that you've made elsewhere; this fanatical desire to tilt at windmills is truly beneath you and insulting to your intelligence. Nobody wins from this scorched earth method. Stop it and go find a cause that's worthwhile.
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July 03, 2012, 09:13:51 PM
 #1303

We covered this. We're not necessarily trying to convince you but rather the unsuspecting naive latecomer in hopes to prevent more people to lose money when the scam does eventually go bust and hopefully if we ward off all of them, sooner rather than later.

Why? Are you really so obsessive about Pirate, or do you actually want to bear latecomers' offspring?

Surely it must be that and not that I wouldn't want people to lose money and endlessly suffer right?

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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July 03, 2012, 09:16:20 PM
 #1304

In addition, people getting mandatory withdraws could never happen in a ponzi, since money is always needed to fund the ponzi.
If you grow too fast, you risk not being able to pay out big/early investors (which seem to be the more vocal ones in this thread, since they have - hopefully not just "on paper" but after a successful withdrawal - already multiplied their investment) and your system could collapse early. Also for whatever weird reason people see this as a more reassuring fact.

On a different note:
If anyone is interested in running some blockchain analysis: http://blockchain.info/fb/1gpuma seems to be a payout address to a miner (who also used satoshidice, so don't assume all inputs are from pirate) on GPUMax. http://blockchain.info/fb/1nz2hx for example is with quite high certainty an address controlled by GPUMax and thus pirateat40. Have fun working your way from there! Smiley

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July 03, 2012, 09:16:31 PM
 #1305


We're pages into the latter. Still no explanation, still it looks like Pirateat40's decision is a massive loss for him unless it is a Ponzi. Still nothing on the need for insanely large individual accounts to get the 7% yield.


Vandroiy,

You want me to tell you how I run my business?  That's your end result, right?  You don't care what happens, I tell you what it is and you'd ruin it for my lenders or I don't tell and you keep up the never ending slander.

We got the message, you've warned everyone.  I'll be sure to post that "YOU WERE RIGHT" when things come crashing down.


No no... no! We're not stopping, we're going to keep repeating the same red flags until you can't find anyone new to "invest" with you before answering some crucial questions. You see, we're not exposing you so those who already take in to their account the very high risk that you are a fraud before they "invest" with you, no no, we are trying to save those unsuspecting naive people without which, if you are the fraud that we think you are, you're going to go bust ASAP.

Thank God for these white knights Smiley
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July 03, 2012, 09:17:07 PM
 #1306

There have been some very good posts that you've made elsewhere; this fanatical desire to tilt at windmills is truly beneath you and insulting to your intelligence. Nobody wins from this scorched earth method. Stop it and go find a cause that's worthwhile.


Awww  Embarrassed Thank you!  Kiss But the thing is I'm having immense fun thinking I could be ruining the "fun" of a scammer so my posts might be formulated childishly but they still contain valid arguments and valid red flags that I will not stop raising.

I might even take your advice and make a special thread and bump it all the time as well.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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July 03, 2012, 09:18:53 PM
 #1307

There have been some very good posts that you've made elsewhere; this fanatical desire to tilt at windmills is truly beneath you and insulting to your intelligence. Nobody wins from this scorched earth method. Stop it and go find a cause that's worthwhile.


Awww  Embarrassed Thank you!  Kiss But the thing is I'm having immense fun thinking I could be ruining the "fun" of a scammer so my posts might be formulated childishly but they still contain valid arguments and valid red flags I will not stop spreading.

I might even take your advice and make a special thread and bump it all the time as well.

Okay, fine, I'm making too much money here to let you keep doing this. Where should I send the 10k to shut you up?
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July 03, 2012, 09:20:04 PM
 #1308

Where did you get the idea you could pay me to stop raising valid arguments and red flags in order to prevent people from needlessly losing their money?

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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July 03, 2012, 09:23:34 PM
 #1309

5000 BTC to 1PjZWL4QmwHNa4Py16uWJr1T9udNRXXrpm within the next 24 hours and this is my last post in this thread. Wink

Edit: cheaper than hazek because I'm probably less annoying... Tongue

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
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July 03, 2012, 09:24:30 PM
 #1310

Surely it must be that and not that I wouldn't want people to lose money and endlessly suffer right?

A coddled child, protected from all difficulty, rarely becomes more than an automaton. We learn through our failures. Development of rational judgment requires trial and error.

Go get a dog so you can come to understand cause & effect.

Awww  Embarrassed Thank you!  Kiss But the thing is I'm having immense fun thinking I could be ruining the "fun" of a scammer so my posts might be formulated childishly but they still contain valid arguments and valid red flags that I will not stop raising.

I might even take your advice and make a special thread and bump it all the time as well.

And if you destroy what might turn out to be a legitimate outfit that may well be a primary factor in maintaining a stable Bitcoin exchange rate, what will you say? "Oops"?

You are not the judge, jury, and executioner.
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July 03, 2012, 09:24:50 PM
 #1311

I'm leaning away from the whole Ponzi thing and more toward the idea that Pirate is converting money for smaller drug cartels.  Occam's razor has another edge.

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July 03, 2012, 09:25:51 PM
 #1312

5000 BTC to 1PjZWL4QmwHNa4Py16uWJr1T9udNRXXrpm within the next 24 hours and this is my last post in this thread. Wink

Edit: cheaper than hazek because I'm probably less annoying... Tongue

I'll take the same deal, but for 50.. see sig

I don't think I've posted much more than "Happy monday!" though.

1D7FJWRzeKa4SLmTznd3JpeNU13L1ErEco
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July 03, 2012, 09:29:42 PM
 #1313

Where did you get the idea you could pay me to stop raising valid arguments and red flags in order to prevent people from needlessly losing their money?

You told us! Don't you remember??
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July 03, 2012, 09:33:26 PM
 #1314

BTCST is a Ponzi scheme, pure and simple. It's been masterfully planned and executed, but I suspect the end is near. 7% a week (28% a month, non-compounded) is far too high to sustain the operation for very long, and it's impressive that it has lasted 6 months. Madoff survived so long by offering about ONE percent a month. People handed him billions to be able to get those returns. There is simply no business opportunity on the planet for which it makes sense to borrow at a compounded annual interest rate of 3300%. If you had a way of making even 1% a week, you'd be crazy to share those profits for longer than it took you to accumulate enough capital to self-fund and bear the risk of whatever you're doing. Or convince a single large private lender of what you're doing, and borrow at something like 6-8% annually.

Here are some aspects that make this a well-played Ponzi:

- Establish trust and reputation over a long period by making OTC trades and building a high OTC and Forum rating. What is the trust rating of an anonymous avatar ultimately worth vs. potentially stealing 100k BTC or more? "Con man" derives from "confidence man". A successful confidence man goes for the long con -- building trust over a long period of time, not taking the small short-term gain in order to take the big score at the end.

- Build an early core of investors who are well-known forum members. My guess is these people were pulled in a month or more before he ever posted the first thread on the forum. This army of early investors serves as a mob who can shout down the inevitable ponzi warnings on the forums. Read the EVE Online account for an account of how this works. In particular, have certain forum members claim to know Pirate's real name or have met hime. If there are forum members here who claim to know who Pirate is (with proof), you should commit to that identity now in the forum with an encrypted message. When the scheme goes south, you can provide the key for decryption. I highly down anyone actually knows who he is though.

- Limit capacity early on, visibly kicking people's investments out. This serves multiple functions. First, it sidesteps the "whale" problem of taking on too much money too early and not being able to make payments. Second, it is a psychological trick that causes investors to be afraid of the wrong thing. Instead of having the fear of losing their entire investment, investors fear being kicked out by earlier investors or "lack of capacity". This makes them reluctant to withdraw, because they may not be able to get back in. Finally, it gives preferential status to early investors, who can offer pass-thru investments to others, and essentially magnifies the marketing efforts of what he could do on his own. He can still control the overall growth rate by restricting these pass-thru providers though. These pass-thru providers may or may not be in on the scheme. Even if they're not in on it, but suspect it's a Ponzi, they can effectively collect risk-free spread by skimming off their spread, while shifting the blame onto Pirate when the eventual default comes.

- Use very vague description of the business. Indicate that there are these large "whales" out there who want to invest in bitcoin and are willing to pay absurd premiums to the market rate in order to do so, and apparently want more and more BTC over time. Even though no one else has found such clients, no one can really prove that you DON'T have access to such clients. This is better than Ponzi's original scheme which he said involved buying massively discounted postal coupons overseas and selling them for face value in the US for big arbitrage profit. The post office called his bluff -- that can't happen to Pirate.

- The scheme is being run using a virtual currency which is semi-anonymous and can be effectively laundered, either along the way or at the end. Based on current law, it may not even be considered a crime, if bitcoin is not considered to be property by the law.

It appears we may be nearing the end of this. The rates are being lowered (but why wait til Aug 1? Potentially, to suck more money in for the next 4 weeks to earn the still-high returns). These "trust" accounts are where the real money is to be made. By making a large differential between the direct accounts and the high value "trust" accounts, it encourages the inflow of a lot of capital to trust accounts (with a nice little 500 BTC kicker per account for the "security deposit"). This is the time for the payoff, so it makes sense to take as much money as quickly as you can before the end. No more worries about whales.

Posting that he's going to be available to meet up in person is another signal that he needs to create additional assurance to suck more investors in. Odds are, either the scheme will collapse before then, or he'll conveniently get sick and not be able to make it.

How does this end? I can think of 3 main ways:

1) He simply disappears, never to be heard from again on the forums.

2) He announces it's a Ponzi -- sorry, you've all been had.

3) He announces that (horror of horrors!) he's been hacked. All the BTC are gone. He's really sorry to let down all his investors -- but it's that damn hacker you should track down!

In any of these cases, he could cash out to USD beforehand or afterwards at a later time. But if you were uncertain as to the impact that revealing BTCST as a ponzi might have on the exchange rate, I think it's much more likely that you'd try to cash out beforehand.

The sooner people test their ability to actually withdraw their account balances, the sooner this will all be over. A ponzi can't tolerate even the HINT of a run on the bank. Why pay out money that you know you can't? Better to keep it and end the scheme.

Good luck to you all.


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July 03, 2012, 09:35:29 PM
 #1315


would you rather make 10.65% a week but have some risk of losing your capital if bitcoin fails OR would rather make only 4.67% a week using someone else's capital and have pretty much no risk whatsoever. I think pirate would be stupid to risk his own money.

Do you really want me to do that math for you?

Okay. Whatever. Difference in yields there is 5.98%. Amortization time of risking own money: 12 weeks. However, Pirateat40 pays 7%, so it's shorter even! Bitcoin has survived trading for decent amounts for over a year now, so the decision to use other people's money is a massive loss for him already. In fact, a factor 5.7 using these understated client yields.

Plus, just investing the earnings from the current scheme now and kicking people out would not risk a bitcent of his starting capital!

This is a joke. Next argument, please?


following thoughts come with an assumption that pirate's business is not a ponzi for argument's sake

i figure pirate doesn't have a luxury to keep all the profits for himself otherwise it would be poorly reflected on overall bitcoin economy, he would acquire massive amount of bitcoins but since no one else making such great returns bitcoin demand and price could potentially significantly degrade which could lead to his business drying up as well. by distributing wealth throughout his lenders he ensures bitcoin economy keeps floating and therefore bitcoin demand and attractiveness continues to stay on level and increase.

 Shocked BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  Grin YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS   Cheesy Did you hear people? He's giving up profit for the greater good of Bitcoin. Man how deluded can some get..  Roll Eyes

we all agree that compounding over 40%/month interest is not sustainable in the long run, at some point there will be reached hard limit. count how long would it take to acquire all bitcoins in existence with that rate. but once you're closing in on majority of bitcoins with such compounding you will be effectively devaluing bitcoin price or price would go crazy UP with very very very limited bitcoins available on the marker, there would be no liquidity in economy - it would make bitcoin economy stale or crash hard in the end and everyone else losing interest in it.  with such great returns, profits IMO must be shared and further distributed throughout market participants, it only makes sense to take a little cut and pass rest of the profits on to others - this effectively makes economy move and flourish which in turn re-fuels and supports his business further.
what will happen when pirate's business reaches the limit of incoming bitcoins as they're can't be printed out of thin air? - bitcoin price would increase and he will be forced to adjust his rates - this is much better and prolonged outcome than being greedy milking over 40%/mo compounding all by himself while going towards drying up and crashing or at the very least stalling bitcoin economy, don't you think so?
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July 03, 2012, 09:40:06 PM
 #1316

BTCST is a Ponzi scheme, pure and simple.
How does this end? I can think of 3 main ways:

1) He simply disappears, never to be heard from again on the forums.

2) He announces it's a Ponzi -- sorry, you've all been had.

3) He announces that (horror of horrors!) he's been hacked. All the BTC are gone.

Yep. Pirate realises his identity will be uncovered and whereabouts distributed to the masses when he disappears. I wonder what his move will be. He knows stealing an excess of $400k from a pool of tech savy individuals is not smart.
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July 03, 2012, 09:40:28 PM
 #1317

Vandroiy,

You want me to tell you how I run my business?  That's your end result, right?  You don't care what happens, I tell you what it is and you'd ruin it for my lenders or I don't tell and you keep up the never ending slander.

We got the message, you've warned everyone.  I'll be sure to post that "YOU WERE RIGHT" when things come crashing down.


No, I need no details. I just want to know why you don't have enough BTC to continue without investors by now. Exponential growth is pretty neat, and I don't see why these peoples' BTC should be better than your own.

If there's one thing I found out by now, then it's that you joke a lot less than it seems. I trust you can fulfill the promise above, and you'll have a laugh at a lot of people when you do.


In addition, people getting mandatory withdraws could never happen in a ponzi, since money is always needed to fund the ponzi.

Do. You. Guys. EVER. Actually. Read. What. I. Have. Repeated. A. Gazillion. Times?

Forced withdraws are necessary to limit the scheme's growth in the beginning. The expected behavior matches observations of BS&T to the best of my knowledge. Also, the method provides a cheap argument for discussions like this one.

If this turns out a scam, people will be angry at everyone who was advertising it. This is the main point! Feel free to throw out your money, we're a free community. However, advertising something you cannot distinguish from a Ponzi is a no-go. This includes misinformed "explanations" as to why this "must be legit".


Right because this forum are the center of the Bitcoin universe, right?  At this point, there's nothing you can do about it.  Keep trying though. Smiley

LOL man, you got guts, I give you that. If it weren't Bitcoin, I'd just have fun watching. Your style is so brazen, it's outright funny. OK, you got me, I gotta do something else. If people read that and keep going "lalala it's safe," well, gosh I'm out of words.

But I'm just gonna post the quote again for good measure.

At this point, there's nothing you can do about it.  Keep trying though. Smiley
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July 03, 2012, 09:41:13 PM
 #1318

BTCST is a Ponzi scheme, pure and simple. It's been masterfully planned and executed, but I suspect the end is near. 7% a week (28% a month, non-compounded) is far too high to sustain the operation for very long, and it's impressive that it has lasted 6 months. Madoff survived so long by offering about ONE percent a month. People handed him billions to be able to get those returns. There is simply no business opportunity on the planet for which it makes sense to borrow at a compounded annual interest rate of 3300%. If you had a way of making even 1% a week, you'd be crazy to share those profits for longer than it took you to accumulate enough capital to self-fund and bear the risk of whatever you're doing. Or convince a single large private lender of what you're doing, and borrow at something like 6-8% annually.

Here are some aspects that make this a well-played Ponzi:

- Establish trust and reputation over a long period by making OTC trades and building a high OTC and Forum rating. What is the trust rating of an anonymous avatar ultimately worth vs. potentially stealing 100k BTC or more? "Con man" derives from "confidence man". A successful confidence man goes for the long con -- building trust over a long period of time, not taking the small short-term gain in order to take the big score at the end.

- Build an early core of investors who are well-known forum members. My guess is these people were pulled in a month or more before he ever posted the first thread on the forum. This army of early investors serves as a mob who can shout down the inevitable ponzi warnings on the forums. Read the EVE Online account for an account of how this works. In particular, have certain forum members claim to know Pirate's real name or have met hime. If there are forum members here who claim to know who Pirate is (with proof), you should commit to that identity now in the forum with an encrypted message. When the scheme goes south, you can provide the key for decryption. I highly down anyone actually knows who he is though.

- Limit capacity early on, visibly kicking people's investments out. This serves multiple functions. First, it sidesteps the "whale" problem of taking on too much money too early and not being able to make payments. Second, it is a psychological trick that causes investors to be afraid of the wrong thing. Instead of having the fear of losing their entire investment, investors fear being kicked out by earlier investors or "lack of capacity". This makes them reluctant to withdraw, because they may not be able to get back in. Finally, it gives preferential status to early investors, who can offer pass-thru investments to others, and essentially magnifies the marketing efforts of what he could do on his own. He can still control the overall growth rate by restricting these pass-thru providers though. These pass-thru providers may or may not be in on the scheme. Even if they're not in on it, but suspect it's a Ponzi, they can effectively collect risk-free spread by skimming off their spread, while shifting the blame onto Pirate when the eventual default comes.

- Use very vague description of the business. Indicate that there are these large "whales" out there who want to invest in bitcoin and are willing to pay absurd premiums to the market rate in order to do so, and apparently want more and more BTC over time. Even though no one else has found such clients, no one can really prove that you DON'T have access to such clients. This is better than Ponzi's original scheme which he said involved buying massively discounted postal coupons overseas and selling them for face value in the US for big arbitrage profit. The post office called his bluff -- that can't happen to Pirate.

- The scheme is being run using a virtual currency which is semi-anonymous and can be effectively laundered, either along the way or at the end. Based on current law, it may not even be considered a crime, if bitcoin is not considered to be property by the law.

It appears we may be nearing the end of this. The rates are being lowered (but why wait til Aug 1? Potentially, to suck more money in for the next 4 weeks to earn the still-high returns). These "trust" accounts are where the real money is to be made. By making a large differential between the direct accounts and the high value "trust" accounts, it encourages the inflow of a lot of capital to trust accounts (with a nice little 500 BTC kicker per account for the "security deposit"). This is the time for the payoff, so it makes sense to take as much money as quickly as you can before the end. No more worries about whales.

Posting that he's going to be available to meet up in person is another signal that he needs to create additional assurance to suck more investors in. Odds are, either the scheme will collapse before then, or he'll conveniently get sick and not be able to make it.

How does this end? I can think of 3 main ways:

1) He simply disappears, never to be heard from again on the forums.

2) He announces it's a Ponzi -- sorry, you've all been had.

3) He announces that (horror of horrors!) he's been hacked. All the BTC are gone. He's really sorry to let down all his investors -- but it's that damn hacker you should track down!

In any of these cases, he could cash out to USD beforehand or afterwards at a later time. But if you were uncertain as to the impact that revealing BTCST as a ponzi might have on the exchange rate, I think it's much more likely that you'd try to cash out beforehand.

The sooner people test their ability to actually withdraw their account balances, the sooner this will be all over. A ponzi can't tolerate even the HINT of a run on the bank. Why pay out money that you know you can't? Better to keep it and end the scheme.

Good luck to you all.

Unfortunately none of that proves it's a Ponzi.  And even more unfortunate is that seldom Ponzi can be proven until it's too late.  In the case of each one of your three end-game scenarios, we still have full dox on him, and some people still have a lot of BTC.  

THIS SPOT FOR RENT* | GPG ID: 4880D85C | 1% Escrow | 8% IPO/ICO Escrow services Temporarily Closed | Bitcointalk is the ONLY place where I use this name (No Skype/IRC/YIM/AIM/etc) | 13CsmTqGNwvFXb7tD9yFvJcEYCDTB8wQTS | Beware of these SCAM sites! | *Sponsored Link
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July 03, 2012, 09:41:34 PM
 #1319

BTCST is a Ponzi scheme, pure and simple. It's been masterfully planned and executed, but I suspect the end is near. 7% a week (28% a month, non-compounded) is far too high to sustain the operation for very long, and it's impressive that it has lasted 6 months. Madoff survived so long by offering about ONE percent a month. People handed him billions to be able to get those returns. There is simply no business opportunity on the planet for which it makes sense to borrow at a compounded annual interest rate of 3300%. If you had a way of making even 1% a week, you'd be crazy to share those profits for longer than it took you to accumulate enough capital to self-fund and bear the risk of whatever you're doing. Or convince a single large private lender of what you're doing, and borrow at something like 6-8% annually.

Here are some aspects that make this a well-played Ponzi:

- Establish trust and reputation over a long period by making OTC trades and building a high OTC and Forum rating. What is the trust rating of an anonymous avatar ultimately worth vs. potentially stealing 100k BTC or more? "Con man" derives from "confidence man". A successful confidence man goes for the long con -- building trust over a long period of time, not taking the small short-term gain in order to take the big score at the end.

- Build an early core of investors who are well-known forum members. My guess is these people were pulled in a month or more before he ever posted the first thread on the forum. This army of early investors serves as a mob who can shout down the inevitable ponzi warnings on the forums. Read the EVE Online account for an account of how this works. In particular, have certain forum members claim to know Pirate's real name or have met hime. If there are forum members here who claim to know who Pirate is (with proof), you should commit to that identity now in the forum with an encrypted message. When the scheme goes south, you can provide the key for decryption. I highly down anyone actually knows who he is though.

- Limit capacity early on, visibly kicking people's investments out. This serves multiple functions. First, it sidesteps the "whale" problem of taking on too much money too early and not being able to make payments. Second, it is a psychological trick that causes investors to be afraid of the wrong thing. Instead of having the fear of losing their entire investment, investors fear being kicked out by earlier investors or "lack of capacity". This makes them reluctant to withdraw, because they may not be able to get back in. Finally, it gives preferential status to early investors, who can offer pass-thru investments to others, and essentially magnifies the marketing efforts of what he could do on his own. He can still control the overall growth rate by restricting these pass-thru providers though. These pass-thru providers may or may not be in on the scheme. Even if they're not in on it, but suspect it's a Ponzi, they can effectively collect risk-free spread by skimming off their spread, while shifting the blame onto Pirate when the eventual default comes.

- Use very vague description of the business. Indicate that there are these large "whales" out there who want to invest in bitcoin and are willing to pay absurd premiums to the market rate in order to do so, and apparently want more and more BTC over time. Even though no one else has found such clients, no one can really prove that you DON'T have access to such clients. This is better than Ponzi's original scheme which he said involved buying massively discounted postal coupons overseas and selling them for face value in the US for big arbitrage profit. The post office called his bluff -- that can't happen to Pirate.

- The scheme is being run using a virtual currency which is semi-anonymous and can be effectively laundered, either along the way or at the end. Based on current law, it may not even be considered a crime, if bitcoin is not considered to be property by the law.

It appears we may be nearing the end of this. The rates are being lowered (but why wait til Aug 1? Potentially, to suck more money in for the next 4 weeks to earn the still-high returns). These "trust" accounts are where the real money is to be made. By making a large differential between the direct accounts and the high value "trust" accounts, it encourages the inflow of a lot of capital to trust accounts (with a nice little 500 BTC kicker per account for the "security deposit"). This is the time for the payoff, so it makes sense to take as much money as quickly as you can before the end. No more worries about whales.

Posting that he's going to be available to meet up in person is another signal that he needs to create additional assurance to suck more investors in. Odds are, either the scheme will collapse before then, or he'll conveniently get sick and not be able to make it.

How does this end? I can think of 3 main ways:

1) He simply disappears, never to be heard from again on the forums.

2) He announces it's a Ponzi -- sorry, you've all been had.

3) He announces that (horror of horrors!) he's been hacked. All the BTC are gone. He's really sorry to let down all his investors -- but it's that damn hacker you should track down!

In any of these cases, he could cash out to USD beforehand or afterwards at a later time. But if you were uncertain as to the impact that revealing BTCST as a ponzi might have on the exchange rate, I think it's much more likely that you'd try to cash out beforehand.

The sooner people test their ability to actually withdraw their account balances, the sooner this will be all over. A ponzi can't tolerate even the HINT of a run on the bank. Why pay out money that you know you can't? Better to keep it and end the scheme.

Good luck to you all.

Yep, this story fits.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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July 03, 2012, 09:42:04 PM
 #1320

This is the one rare occasion that calls for a deliberate double-post.

At this point, there's nothing you can do about it.  Keep trying though. Smiley

I'm off, guys, it doesn't get any better than this, and that's when you quit.
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