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Question: How would you rate Bitcoin Savings & Trust?
5 - Excellent
4 - Very Good
3 - Good
2 - Fair
1 - Poor
No comment just show me the results.

Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

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Author Topic: Bitcoin Savings and Trust | Home | Closed  (Read 774216 times)
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July 03, 2012, 09:44:04 PM
 #1321

Ive been on the fence putting some of my coin into one of the pass-thrus and this is my conclusion right now:

1. After the Vegas meetup(sadly Im not on the same continent) alot more people who arnt specificly part of the in-group will know who pirate is.

2. There is a ton invested in Pirate savings from all kinds of people, some potentially passive(will shrug if its a ponzi at the end) and some potentially aggressive(will go as far as potential kill pirate due to lost money if all goes to shit)

Fact of the matter is that due to pass-thrus I can assure you pirate doesnt know who he is dealing with via all the channels and if he runs a ponzi and defaults he will have no idea who he ultimately pissed off enough to cause serious harm to himself(unless he can physically drop of this planet and not be found) which isnt possible unless he would be happy to spend his fortune in the amazon rain forest or something crap like that.

This is my take on the matter, none of those suggested scams from EVE online ever revealed their own identity to the investors thus they could effectively pull the plug at will and laugh it off, this is not the case here and to me Pirate simply cannot be this stupid to effectively end his own life(he might have to be on the run just on principal alone some people have much more available capital to continue persuing him out of principal)

...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> Clipse

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July 03, 2012, 09:51:07 PM
 #1322

Nice coincidence, on the first page of gotbalotelled right now:


https://localbitcoins.com/?ch=80k | BTC: 1LJvmd1iLi199eY7EVKtNQRW3LqZi8ZmmB
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July 03, 2012, 09:53:29 PM
 #1323


No, I need no details. I just want to know why you don't have enough BTC to continue without investors by now. Exponential growth is pretty neat, and I don't see why these peoples' BTC should be better than your own.

If there's one thing I found out by now, then it's that you joke a lot less than it seems. I trust you can fulfill the promise above, and you'll have a laugh at a lot of people when you do.

I can't remember how many times I've explained this, but for you I'll do it again.

Bitcoin is not fiat yet.  That doesn't mean it won't be at some point nor does it mean I don't believe in it.  There's simply no reason at this time for me to risk market movements with my converted fiat > bitcoin when there's hundreds of users that will let me make money with their coins.  I don't need them, I just prefer them.

My operation is funded by my lenders and I do hold a few personal coins myself.  

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July 03, 2012, 09:59:04 PM
 #1324

pirate: I just have to say that if you were the one who put up the 'BTCST defaults July 4 or before' post, that would be the coup de grâce.

I'm selling great Minion Games like The Manhattan Project, Kingdom of Solomon and Venture Forth at 4% off retail starting June 2012. PM me or go to my thread in the Marketplace if you're interested.

For Settlers/Dominion/Carcassone etc., I do email gift cards on Amazon for a 5% fee. PM if you're interested.
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July 03, 2012, 10:00:27 PM
 #1325

pirate: I just have to say that if you were the one who put up the 'BTCST defaults July 4 or before' post, that would be the coup de grâce.

Payouts already happened for this week.  So there goes that bet.

THIS SPOT FOR RENT* | GPG ID: 4880D85C | 1% Escrow | 8% IPO/ICO Escrow services Temporarily Closed | Bitcointalk is the ONLY place where I use this name (No Skype/IRC/YIM/AIM/etc) | 13CsmTqGNwvFXb7tD9yFvJcEYCDTB8wQTS | Beware of these SCAM sites! | *Sponsored Link
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July 03, 2012, 10:02:20 PM
 #1326

The "big one" could have been one from MtGox for example.

OK, that is probably a MtGox-address, judging from the amounts and how often they come in.

Nevertheless the total BTC volume of the other large addresses would be in the hundreds of thousands and would likely exceed the total number of deposits at BTCST especially considering that they aren't that old. And they are all immediately following, ie. next step, addresses.
I would be interested in seeing a Deposit address or ten, to see what happens with deposited funds. As far as GPUMax, based on what I've seen, there is either nothing of note going on there (I'd need deposit addresses to know more), or this is a massive money-laundering operation. Money launders can make upwards of 50% of what flows though them, so that would both pay for the whole show as well as explain why Pirate doesn't feel like using his own BTC.

I am quite qualified to do blockchain analysis, and I promise not to reveal addresses sent to me, just the information that I find.

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July 03, 2012, 10:03:40 PM
 #1327

pirate: I just have to say that if you were the one who put up the 'BTCST defaults July 4 or before' post, that would be the coup de grâce.

Payouts already happened for this week.  So there goes that bet.

"This statement is true if Bitcoin Savings and Trust is unwilling or unable to pay out requested deposits on or before July 4th, 2012 according to the opinion of Bitcointalk.org members on the Bitcoin Savings and Trust Forum Thread. "

If he posted 'Yup, it was a Ponzi', and then stonewalled withdrawals tomorrow, the bet would be true. Full disclosure: I'm not on either side of the bet.

-bgc

I'm selling great Minion Games like The Manhattan Project, Kingdom of Solomon and Venture Forth at 4% off retail starting June 2012. PM me or go to my thread in the Marketplace if you're interested.

For Settlers/Dominion/Carcassone etc., I do email gift cards on Amazon for a 5% fee. PM if you're interested.
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July 03, 2012, 10:04:41 PM
 #1328

I would be interested in seeing a Deposit address or ten, to see what happens with deposited funds. As far as GPUMax, based on what I've seen, there is either nothing of note going on there (I'd need deposit addresses to know more), or this is a massive money-laundering operation. Money launders can make upwards of 50% of what flows though them, so that would both pay for the whole show as well as explain why Pirate doesn't feel like using his own BTC.

I am quite qualified to do blockchain analysis, and I promise not to reveal addresses sent to me, just the information that I find.

That's the side I'm leaning toward at this point. If that's the case, I want no part of it, but that's not going to deter a lot of people.  7% is a pretty big carrot.

THIS SPOT FOR RENT* | GPG ID: 4880D85C | 1% Escrow | 8% IPO/ICO Escrow services Temporarily Closed | Bitcointalk is the ONLY place where I use this name (No Skype/IRC/YIM/AIM/etc) | 13CsmTqGNwvFXb7tD9yFvJcEYCDTB8wQTS | Beware of these SCAM sites! | *Sponsored Link
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July 03, 2012, 10:07:21 PM
 #1329

I seem to remember about a CDS or an insurance on pirate's default on the GLBSE, but I can't find it.
If really there is not, it could be a good idea.

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July 03, 2012, 10:08:26 PM
 #1330

Pirateat40: lol... you got me. I'm not even going to repeat the amortization thing. That post toward us is too awesome. Anyone stupid enough to keep going now deserves it, what would those people have done with the funds anyway?

This is actually why I don't have anything against the MMM schemes. If you give people a fair chance to notice, it's no more a scam than selling ground on Mars. A part of me is now going to laugh with you when you call it quits.

Also, lol Herzmeister
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July 03, 2012, 10:10:20 PM
 #1331

I hate to step in the middle of this ****storm to slow things down a bit, but would it be possible for those who have already made their point to stop repeating themselves so that other threads in the parent category can get a fair shake at getting read? Their moment to shine perhaps??

I'd also like to ask a favor and allow Pirate to control his thread a bit more, as it was his to start with. Do we need a child board just for Pirate discussions (ponzi and anti-ponzi rhetoric)? I'd like to think we're all adults here and we can reasonably fend for ourselves. Both sides to this argument have been made. Some good, some not so good. I'd say were fairly satiated with the nuances and details regarding the speculation surrounding Pirate's business.

I don't think much more light will be shed on the topic matter until new events transpire. I think there were some interesting questions Pirate could have responded to regarding some of his new changes to the "program", but were buried in all of the tit-for-tat inundation.

Respect begets respect.

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July 03, 2012, 10:10:47 PM
 #1332


No, I need no details. I just want to know why you don't have enough BTC to continue without investors by now. Exponential growth is pretty neat, and I don't see why these peoples' BTC should be better than your own.

If there's one thing I found out by now, then it's that you joke a lot less than it seems. I trust you can fulfill the promise above, and you'll have a laugh at a lot of people when you do.

I can't remember how many times I've explained this, but for you I'll do it again.

Bitcoin is not fiat yet.  That doesn't mean it won't be at some point nor does it mean I don't believe in it.  There's simply no reason at this time for me to risk market movements with my converted fiat > bitcoin when there's hundreds of users that will let me make money with their coins.  I don't need them, I just prefer them.

My operation is funded by my lenders and I do hold a few personal coins myself.  

Riiiight ok, that's a valid reason.. Except there's one tiny little problem with your story: Your clients haven't had any loses yet even though the price rose which should have meant that you couldn't have possibly bought back all the bitcoins people "invested" with you that you initially, as you claim, converted to fiat. How is this possible? How are you able to meet your obligations even though the risk event for which you insured yourself against by using other people's bitcoins clearly happened?

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

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July 03, 2012, 10:11:39 PM
 #1333

I hate to step in the middle of this ****storm to slow things down a bit, but would it be possible for those who have already made their point to stop repeating themselves so that other threads in the parent category can get a fair shake at getting read? Their moment to shine perhaps??

I'd also like to ask a favor and allow Pirate to control his thread a bit more, as it was his to start with. Do we need a child board just for Pirate discussions (ponzi and anti-ponzi rhetoric)? I'd like to think we're all adults here and we can reasonably fend for ourselves. Both sides to this argument have been made. Some good, some not so good. I'd say were fairly satiated with the nuances and details regarding the speculation surrounding Pirate's business.

I don't think much more light will be shed on the topic matter until new events transpire. I think there were some interesting questions Pirate could have responded to regarding some of his new changes to the "program", but were buried in all of the tit-for-tat inundation.

Respect begets respect.

Pirate can't control his thread other than to ask people to stop.  OP have no real control over their threads other than to lock them.

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July 03, 2012, 10:11:51 PM
 #1334


Unfortunately none of that proves it's a Ponzi.  And even more unfortunate is that seldom Ponzi can be proven until it's too late.  In the case of each one of your three end-game scenarios, we still have full dox on him, and some people still have a lot of BTC.  

Who is "we"? And what are these full docs? I have heard this claim multiple times, but no evidence has been presented that it is true.
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July 03, 2012, 10:15:42 PM
 #1335

Riiiight ok, that's a valid reason.. Except there's one tiny little problem with your story: Your clients haven't had any loses yet even though the price rose which should have meant that you couldn't have possibly bought back all the bitcoins people "invested" with you that you initially, as you claim, converted to fiat. How is this possible? How are you able to meet your obligations even though the risk event for which you insured yourself against by using other people's bitcoins clearly happened?

I think there's some confusion here: By having a liability in bitcoins, he's insuring himself against a DROP in BTCUSD. A rise in BTCUSD is the wrong direction for his supposed hedge and is the reason why the argument 'I have my liability in BTC because it's not as good as $' doesn't hold water: Cross-currency risk exists regardless of which side the liability is on.

-bgc

I'm selling great Minion Games like The Manhattan Project, Kingdom of Solomon and Venture Forth at 4% off retail starting June 2012. PM me or go to my thread in the Marketplace if you're interested.

For Settlers/Dominion/Carcassone etc., I do email gift cards on Amazon for a 5% fee. PM if you're interested.
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July 03, 2012, 10:20:09 PM
 #1336


Unfortunately none of that proves it's a Ponzi.  And even more unfortunate is that seldom Ponzi can be proven until it's too late.  In the case of each one of your three end-game scenarios, we still have full dox on him, and some people still have a lot of BTC.  

Who is "we"? And what are these full docs? I have heard this claim multiple times, but no evidence has been presented that it is true.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doxing

You don't really know who roam those forums, who owns BTC and who have BTC in pirate business. If pirate scam everybody, I think that some guys have good tools to find him back. Especially with the amounts involved.

I think he knows what doxxing is, him and many others including myself arnt aware of these details.

...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> Clipse

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July 03, 2012, 10:20:18 PM
 #1337

Riiiight ok, that's a valid reason.. Except there's one tiny little problem with your story: Your clients haven't had any loses yet even though the price rose which should have meant that you couldn't have possibly bought back all the bitcoins people "invested" with you that you initially, as you claim, converted to fiat. How is this possible? How are you able to meet your obligations even though the risk event for which you insured yourself against by using other people's bitcoins clearly happened?

I think there's some confusion here: By having a liability in bitcoins, he's insuring himself against a DROP in BTCUSD. A rise in BTCUSD is the wrong direction for his supposed hedge and is the reason why the argument 'I have my liability in BTC because it's not as good as $' doesn't hold water: Cross-currency risk exists regardless of which side the liability is on.

-bgc

If he takes the bitcoins and converts them into fiat:

Bitcoin is not fiat yet.  That doesn't mean it won't be at some point nor does it mean I don't believe in it.  There's simply no reason at this time for me to risk market movements with my converted fiat > bitcoin

.. and after he does what ever he is doing, which I believe to be nothing at all, he has to buy back bitcoins to meet his obligations. How is a drop in the BTCUSD rate hurting him in this again?

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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July 03, 2012, 10:22:06 PM
 #1338


Unfortunately none of that proves it's a Ponzi.  And even more unfortunate is that seldom Ponzi can be proven until it's too late.  In the case of each one of your three end-game scenarios, we still have full dox on him, and some people still have a lot of BTC.  

Who is "we"? And what are these full docs? I have heard this claim multiple times, but no evidence has been presented that it is true.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doxing

You don't really know who roam those forums, who owns BTC and who have BTC in pirate business. If pirate scam everybody, I think that some guys have good tools to find him back. Especially with the amounts involved.

Okay, I wasn't familiar with that term. But that still sounds like something that would have to be done in the future, unless you are saying someone has already applied these techniques to identify him. Is that what you're saying?

I assume if Pirate is sophisticated enough to run a successful long-running ponzi scheme, he's sophisticated enough to also cover his tracks. Or at least thinks he is.
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July 03, 2012, 10:22:48 PM
 #1339

Bitcoin is not fiat yet.  That doesn't mean it won't be at some point nor does it mean I don't believe in it.  There's simply no reason at this time for me to risk market movements with my converted fiat > bitcoin

Riiiight ok, that's a valid reason.. Except there's one tiny little problem with your story: Your clients haven't had any loses yet even though the price rose which should have meant that you couldn't have possibly bought back all the bitcoins people "invested" with you that you initially, as you claim, converted to fiat. How is this possible? How are you able to meet your obligations even though the risk event for which you insured yourself against by using other people's bitcoins clearly happened?

Btw ^ this is what they call a smoking gun I believe.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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July 03, 2012, 10:23:26 PM
 #1340

hazek: we may be talking around each other. I'm just saying that his hedge only helps if the BTCUSD drops, and if it rises, he has extra liability. This is probably what you're saying as well.

I'm selling great Minion Games like The Manhattan Project, Kingdom of Solomon and Venture Forth at 4% off retail starting June 2012. PM me or go to my thread in the Marketplace if you're interested.

For Settlers/Dominion/Carcassone etc., I do email gift cards on Amazon for a 5% fee. PM if you're interested.
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