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Question: How would you rate Bitcoin Savings & Trust?
5 - Excellent
4 - Very Good
3 - Good
2 - Fair
1 - Poor
No comment just show me the results.

Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

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Author Topic: Bitcoin Savings and Trust | Home | Closed  (Read 774382 times)
payb.tc
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July 03, 2012, 05:18:10 AM
 #1181

Trust Account
Trust accounts are considered partner accounts, designed for members that manage sub-accounts.  
  • Benefits:
    • Rates Starting At 5%*
    • Unlimited Deposits
    • Create & Manage Sub-Accounts
    • Trusted Account Verification Seal

Starts at 5%?  How high can it go and what determines the rate?

over 9000, and pirate determines the rate Tongue
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miscreanity
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July 03, 2012, 05:19:47 AM
 #1182

Let's keep it simple for starters. We could really use a hint as to why returns are so strongly dependent on the size of individual deposits, if not for the reason documented in the Currin Trading Ponzi (http://web.archive.org/web/20091026234156/http://geocities.com/currintrading/ On a side note, the text also documented neatly why an operator rarely replies to garbage like this).
An interesting read at least... Here's the link to the second page if anyone is interested.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090807121852/http://geocities.com/currintrading/bank.html
Thanks for the 2nd link! I was so disappointed earlier.

I wonder how many Alpaca socks were sold on Eve...
phelix
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July 03, 2012, 06:50:00 AM
 #1183

Let's keep it simple for starters. We could really use a hint as to why returns are so strongly dependent on the size of individual deposits, if not for the reason documented in the Currin Trading Ponzi (http://web.archive.org/web/20091026234156/http://geocities.com/currintrading/ On a side note, the text also documented neatly why an operator rarely replies to garbage like this).

An interesting read at least... Here's the link to the second page if anyone is interested.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090807121852/http://geocities.com/currintrading/bank.html

@Vandroiy
I think everyone is trying to say: WE ARE AWARE OF THE RISKS! I for one am small time when it comes to my bankroll, and I enjoy the excitement of weekly interest payments and the allure of "doubling up" with the PPT's. If for some reason I loose, God knows it won't be because I wasn't warned. Let us have our fun in peace.

Thank you.

So what valid reason do you have to be angry? I haven't bothered following your rants: are you invested with Pirate?

[...]

Valid reason to be angry? How about "damaging the public image and stability of Bitcoin at a time that is absolutely irreplaceable for reaching critical mass, which could change global economics forever," is that a valid reason for you?

[...]

don't bother vandroiy. most people only learn the hard way. this might even go on for a long time with more and more people joining the bubble. finally a big wave of crying will run through the forums but that will be it. pirate might dump the coins but the screwed investors will also buy back in so the overall impact on price will be small and of short time.

and the parrot will laugh: "arr, arr, arr"  www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzPABxg3sS4 Cheesy




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Raoul Duke
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July 03, 2012, 09:59:36 AM
 #1184

No, Vandroiy, you don't remember me from pro-pirate posts.
If you open your eyes, and who know, maybe open your mind, you'll probably remember me from anti-bullshit posts, not pro-this or pro-that posts.

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July 03, 2012, 10:18:41 AM
 #1185

Last time I checked, anti-bullshit does not start and end with "GTFO" and include "You're just a jealous son of a bitch".

At least you got my nick right this time.
jamesg
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July 03, 2012, 10:33:12 AM
 #1186

I hate to bring this thread off topic and apologize in advance but where can I buy Alpaca socks? I have been trying for months now and no response Sad

I would like to raise alpacas so that I can make my own socks some day.....
organofcorti
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July 03, 2012, 11:09:35 AM
 #1187

You should use a nick that doesn't require copy/paste to get right, hhm k?

You made me sad, psy. I hope you're satisfied now. You're mean.

Bitcoin network and pool analysis 12QxPHEuxDrs7mCyGSx1iVSozTwtquDB3r
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Raoul Duke
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July 03, 2012, 12:25:10 PM
 #1188

You should use a nick that doesn't require copy/paste to get right, hhm k?

You made me sad, psy. I hope you're satisfied now. You're mean.

Your's quite easy to get actually. Just the nicks who sound like Russian scammers are hard Grin

organofcorti
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July 03, 2012, 12:38:38 PM
 #1189

You should use a nick that doesn't require copy/paste to get right, hhm k?

You made me sad, psy. I hope you're satisfied now. You're mean.

Your's quite easy to get actually. Just the nicks who sound like Russian scammers are hard Grin

Tell that to the forum members who used to call me "organoff" Wink

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hazek
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July 03, 2012, 01:05:38 PM
 #1190

Let's keep it simple for starters. We could really use a hint as to why returns are so strongly dependent on the size of individual deposits, if not for the reason documented in the Currin Trading Ponzi (http://web.archive.org/web/20091026234156/http://geocities.com/currintrading/ On a side note, the text also documented neatly why an operator rarely replies to garbage like this).

An interesting read at least... Here's the link to the second page if anyone is interested.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090807121852/http://geocities.com/currintrading/bank.html

@Vandroiy
I think everyone is trying to say: WE ARE AWARE OF THE RISKS! I for one am small time when it comes to my bankroll, and I enjoy the excitement of weekly interest payments and the allure of "doubling up" with the PPT's. If for some reason I loose, God knows it won't be because I wasn't warned. Let us have our fun in peace.

Thank you.

Thanks for the 2nd link! I was so disappointed earlier.

Yeah me too, the writing by that guy is very engaging, I couldn't stop reading so thank you from me too!

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
brendio
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July 03, 2012, 01:09:59 PM
 #1191

I hate to bring this thread off topic and apologize in advance but where can I buy Alpaca socks? I have been trying for months now and no response Sad

I would like to raise alpacas so that I can make my own socks some day.....

I'm wearing my Grass Hill Alpaca socks right now! Perfect for the cold snap we're having here at the moment. They were my very first bitcoin purchase!

hazek
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July 03, 2012, 01:14:36 PM
 #1192

Let's keep it simple for starters. We could really use a hint as to why returns are so strongly dependent on the size of individual deposits, if not for the reason documented in the Currin Trading Ponzi (http://web.archive.org/web/20091026234156/http://geocities.com/currintrading/ On a side note, the text also documented neatly why an operator rarely replies to garbage like this).

An interesting read at least... Here's the link to the second page if anyone is interested.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090807121852/http://geocities.com/currintrading/bank.html

@Vandroiy
I think everyone is trying to say: WE ARE AWARE OF THE RISKS! I for one am small time when it comes to my bankroll, and I enjoy the excitement of weekly interest payments and the allure of "doubling up" with the PPT's. If for some reason I loose, God knows it won't be because I wasn't warned. Let us have our fun in peace.

Thank you.

So what valid reason do you have to be angry? I haven't bothered following your rants: are you invested with Pirate?

[...]

Valid reason to be angry? How about "damaging the public image and stability of Bitcoin at a time that is absolutely irreplaceable for reaching critical mass, which could change global economics forever," is that a valid reason for you?

[...]

don't bother vandroiy. most people only learn the hard way. this might even go on for a long time with more and more people joining the bubble. finally a big wave of crying will run through the forums but that will be it. pirate might dump the coins but the screwed investors will also buy back in so the overall impact on price will be small and of short time.

and the parrot will laugh: "arr, arr, arr"  www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzPABxg3sS4 Cheesy

It's a shame really, that so many people are financially and economically illiterate to fall for scams like a ponzi scheme and it's especially a shame that with already much negative press that Bitcoin is getting from various fallacies being used as valid arguments in article to articles with reports on thefts and hacks, Bitcoin users and suporters neither appear to be able to escape being labeled idiots who fall for a ponzi when this all blows up and people lose a ton of money.

But I guess that's just the way it has to be; "A fool and his money is soon parted."

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
copumpkin
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July 03, 2012, 01:26:41 PM
 #1193

It's a shame really, that so many people are financially and economically illiterate to fall for scams like a ponzi scheme and it's especially a shame that with already much negative press that Bitcoin is getting from various fallacies being used as valid arguments in article to articles with reports on thefts and hacks, Bitcoin users and suporters neither appear to be able to escape being labeled idiots who fall for a ponzi when this all blows up and people lose a ton of money.

But I guess that's just the way it has to be; "A fool and his money is soon parted."

Yeah, the only reason we'd ever do something that you wouldn't is that we're financially illiterate.
hazek
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July 03, 2012, 01:30:37 PM
 #1194

It's a shame really, that so many people are financially and economically illiterate to fall for scams like a ponzi scheme and it's especially a shame that with already much negative press that Bitcoin is getting from various fallacies being used as valid arguments in article to articles with reports on thefts and hacks, Bitcoin users and suporters neither appear to be able to escape being labeled idiots who fall for a ponzi when this all blows up and people lose a ton of money.

But I guess that's just the way it has to be; "A fool and his money is soon parted."

Yeah, the only reason we'd ever do something that you wouldn't is that we're financially illiterate.

Not all, just those who unknowingly "invest" in a ponzi scheme.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
BurtW
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July 03, 2012, 01:46:00 PM
 #1195

It's a shame really, that so many people are financially and economically illiterate to fall for scams like a ponzi scheme and it's especially a shame that with already much negative press that Bitcoin is getting from various fallacies being used as valid arguments in article to articles with reports on thefts and hacks, Bitcoin users and suporters neither appear to be able to escape being labeled idiots who fall for a ponzi when this all blows up and people lose a ton of money.

But I guess that's just the way it has to be; "A fool and his money is soon parted."

Yeah, the only reason we'd ever do something that you wouldn't is that we're financially illiterate.

Not all, just those who unknowingly "invest" in a ponzi scheme.
If you want to discuss ponzi schemes why don't you go and start your own thread.  Maybe call it "My thoughts on Ponzi schemes" or something catchy like that.  I don't understand why you are trying to discuss that here in this thread.  This thread is about BS&T it is not about ponzi schemes.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
hazek
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July 03, 2012, 01:50:13 PM
 #1196

This thread is about BS&T it is not about ponzi schemes.

The only way this sentence makes any sense at all is if you believe BS&T is not a ponzi scheme, which I find no good reason to share. If you have some facts to support your belief I'll gladly take a read but until then, for me, talking about BS&T is talking about a ponzi scheme.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
danieldaniel
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July 03, 2012, 01:53:49 PM
 #1197

This thread is about BS&T it is not about ponzi schemes.

The only way this sentence makes any sense at all is if you believe BS&T is not a ponzi scheme, which I find no good reason to share. If you have some facts to support your belief I'll gladly take a read but until then, for me, talking about BS&T is talking about a ponzi scheme.
What facts, exactly, do you have to support your belief?

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July 03, 2012, 01:59:49 PM
 #1198

You should use a nick that doesn't require copy/paste to get right, hhm k?

You made me sad, psy. I hope you're satisfied now. You're mean.

Your's quite easy to get actually. Just the nicks who sound like Russian scammers are hard Grin

Tell that to the forum members who used to call me "organoff" Wink
I don't think I've ever misspelled your name, stroganoff…

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July 03, 2012, 02:05:25 PM
 #1199

This thread is about BS&T it is not about ponzi schemes.

The only way this sentence makes any sense at all is if you believe BS&T is not a ponzi scheme, which I find no good reason to share. If you have some facts to support your belief I'll gladly take a read but until then, for me, talking about BS&T is talking about a ponzi scheme.
What facts, exactly, do you have to support your belief?

I can't prove anything definitively, that much is clear. But what I can do is look for the tell-tale signs of a ponzi scheme(various facts from what is disclosed about the "investeing" to the abnormally high interest promised, the way PR is handled, ect..) + take into account the complete lack of evidence to the contrary.

To someone financially literate like myself this is enough to know with a pretty high accuracy what I'm looking at is a scam and it's not the first I've encountered and immediately recognized either..

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
copumpkin
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July 03, 2012, 02:37:28 PM
 #1200

This thread is about BS&T it is not about ponzi schemes.

The only way this sentence makes any sense at all is if you believe BS&T is not a ponzi scheme, which I find no good reason to share. If you have some facts to support your belief I'll gladly take a read but until then, for me, talking about BS&T is talking about a ponzi scheme.

Tell me this, then: what could anyone possibly do to prove that BS&T is not a Ponzi scheme? Describe a few more details of his business? Open up his books? Those can all be falsified.

The truth is, there is nothing he can do to prove that he is not a Ponzi. This "discussion" always devolves into some combination of "the yield is too high", "he isn't transparent enough", or "you guys don't understand finance" but the reality is that none of us can know. You don't know for sure that he is one, and we don't know for sure that he isn't one. This is certainly true of any Ponzi scheme, but it is also true of any other business that has unnaturally high yields with seemingly low risk.

Luckily for us, people deal with uncertain situations like this every day, with a concept called risk. Most of the time, people talk about counterparty/credit risk or currency risk or the like. Everyone knows that high yields, in an efficient market, can only be explained by high risk. Given that pirateat40 has given us no reason to believe he has a high counterparty risk, I propose a new form of risk at play here: copumpkin et al.'s "too fucking good to be true" risk. This risk factor arises naturally from situations in which the traditional risk factors appear too small to support the observed level of reward. I'm sure that most Ponzi investors have considered a similar concept, possibly without the precise naming I used.

Anyway, "too fucking good to be true" risk is just another risk factor. We can observe the rewards, and can hypothesize on the degree of the individual risk factors, and can make a reasonably educated decision for ourselves about whether to "invest" in BS&T. Sure, we'd prefer to have more certainty about the uncertainty of BS&T's prospects, but so would most investors in risky businesses. If I buy junk corporate bonds, I'd love to know that the company doesn't have some skeleton in its closet that will cause it to lose me all my money, and if I buy Greek government bonds, I'd also love to know that Greece isn't going to default on its debt (or "restructure" or whatever).

We don't know that pirateat40 isn't going to default, or even that he's honest. So far he's shown himself to be an honest, friendly guy, but up until the mortgage crisis, nobody thought that real estate was going to crash so hard. Furthermore, I've gone my entire life without getting hit by a car! Tail risk is hard to predict Smiley We can make estimates, and you're right: from the outside, this does look like a Ponzi scheme. Hell, from the inside it might, too.

But consider for a moment the (possibly very small) possibility that he really has found an excellent way to make money. If you knew for sure that he was doing that, would you not invest with him? Do you think he'd tell people how he was doing it? Of course not! Do you think people would be screaming at you that it was too good to be true and that he was a Ponzi? Of course they would. The "the returns are too high and it isn't transparent" argument applies to any hypothetical business that has succeeded where everyone else has failed, in making craploads of money. Furthermore, as I explained earlier, that argument can't be falsified, so even if you are convinced of it, there's not much point in debating it (as I'm doing now?).

My basic point boils down to the following: every one of his lenders/depositors that I know are well aware that it could be a Ponzi. I know that I and several others of us are not putting more than we could handle losing, so this really boils down to a highly risky piece of speculation. If it pays off, it'll pay off very well, and if not, we'll just go do something else and possibly hunt pirateat40 down if the loss appears to be malicious. The risks are hard to assess (aren't all risks?) but we most certainly are factoring them into our decision, and having people on the forum assume that we haven't thought through all the obvious ramifications really doesn't help anyone. Face it: none of what you're saying is deeply insightful; it's just basic common sense. We all have it, and we're either blinded by greed or just making a risky investment.

Granted, you can apply what I'm saying to any other Ponzi scheme, and I'm sure others made similar arguments for Madoff and whatever. It doesn't matter: I'm not going to whine if he disappears. A venture capital fund invests in out-of-college startups knowing well that only a small fraction of the startups it invests in are going to make any money at all. It's not irrational to speculate on high-risk ventures. If you think the risk of him running off with your money is higher than the potential rewards, avoid it; we think the rewards are higher than the risk, so we put money in, and it really is that simple.

tl;dr: personal responsibility, different risk tolerances, respect
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