ANTMINER S2 Discussion and Support Thread

[claudesdad]

what a complete trainwreck. geezus. considering s1's will be worthless in 3 months tops. it's time for an alternative. how about a 5Th for 6.5 btc. mmmmm hmmmmm

Yeah - I don't get where the ROI is coming from on some of these units. Given the difficulty level - and constant increases,  the market price of BTC, the cost of the mining rigs - and the upcoming boning from the tax man,  I just don't see it.

Must be that new math I've been hearing about.

There is not a single machine that would get your ROI unless you are playing the long term game. Price of BTC will go up to reflect that difficulty changes and cost of the miners. At the moment, BTC is going through some changes and government announcements having negative impact on the price.

Think this as an investment rather than regular monthly income.

Price of BTC could be $2,000 or $20 in the next 12 months.

Even you design your own asics and manufacturer your miners you will not make your money back unless you pre-mine and sell those miners few weeks / months later just like every other manufacturer.

That reasoning is a fallacy.  A piece of hardware will generate a relatively finite amount of BTC in it's lifetime.  As difficulty increases, the amount of BTC generated by a piece of hardware asymptotically approaches zero.  Given the amount of BTC the hardware will generate and given the amount of fiat required to purchase said hardware, it usually makes more sense to buy and hold btc now if you assume that price of BTC will go up.

Yeah but where's the fun in that? You can't 'unbox' a bitcoin like you can a miner...

If you're just looking to piss thru money - there's an awful lot of things in the world  you can do that with - that are a lot more "fun" than BTC mining.

[klondike_bar]

If you're just looking to piss thru money - there's an awful lot of things in the world  you can do that with - that are a lot more "fun" than BTC mining.

mining is fun. how many people buy a $200 box of lego, spend 2-3 days assembling it, and then put it away on a shelf as a decoration? setting up computer gear is fun for some people.

you can blow $1000 gambling for a few hours of fun in vegas and walk away empty-handed.  Some people like me would consider bitcoin mining as a bit of a hobby, particularly one that can make a bit of profit if things go well. not many hobbies make any money.

also, mining depends on your outlook on BTC. do you see it at $1500 or $150 by the end of 2014? Its going to be at one of those extremes, and my money is on it going up (literally). I don't think its hard to envision a near-future where huge facilities hosting 10-20PH of power are located all over the globe, run by both private investors and/or banks and investment firms who want to produce their own bitcoins.  If bitcoin continues to be the leading solution for a future-proof currency it will be very valuable in 5 years from now

[satvir]

Can somebody please post a link for the new firmware? I have not received my AntMiner S2 yet, but would like to update as soon as I get it.

Also maybe even a process on how to update it? Sorry I have not update an AntMiner before..

[buckrogers]

did anyone figure out the admin password change thing yet?

[claudesdad]

If you're just looking to piss thru money - there's an awful lot of things in the world  you can do that with - that are a lot more "fun" than BTC mining.

mining is fun. how many people buy a $200 box of lego, spend 2-3 days assembling it, and then put it away on a shelf as a decoration? setting up computer gear is fun for some people.

you can blow $1000 gambling for a few hours of fun in vegas and walk away empty-handed.  Some people like me would consider bitcoin mining as a bit of a hobby, particularly one that can make a bit of profit if things go well. not many hobbies make any money.

also, mining depends on your outlook on BTC. do you see it at $1500 or $150 by the end of 2014? Its going to be at one of those extremes, and my money is on it going up (literally). I don't think its hard to envision a near-future where huge facilities hosting 10-20PH of power are located all over the globe, run by both private investors and/or banks and investment firms who want to produce their own bitcoins.  If bitcoin continues to be the leading solution for a future-proof currency it will be very valuable in 5 years from now

BTC - in the US at least (and China for that matter) - is not going to get treated as "currency" - because the IRS is going to take a cut every single time you do an exchange where you make a gain.  This means that to deal in BTC at all - you're going to have to keep copious records of all of your transactions if you ever enter 'the system' with BTC.

Bitcoin is more like a stock - that can be more freely traded - than it is a currency.  And the government takes a cut out of stock transactions.

If you want to justify doing it on the basis that it's fun - that's fine.  But I've yet to see anybody lately coming out with any math that proves that the mining thing is profitable - unless their doing what I proposed previously - and just pushing off all the costs onto somebody else.

To answer  your question: no I don't see BTC at $1500 for sure.  It might go there - but then again Apple stock *might* go there too.   But what you're proposing here as a justification is just a unicorn dream.  Not a sound basis for "investing" in mining machinery.

If I spend $3000 on a new welder - I can put it out in my garage and build stuff with it.  If I'm in the business of making things - I can make stuff and sell it - or even if I just use it to fix broken stuff, I can justify the cost by how much money I saved fixing things myself over some number of years.  Plus the welder WILL hold residual value over time.  So figuring out it's payback time is pretty easy.  Applying the same methodology to mining machinery - the payback just isn't there, UNLESS - you start plugging in fictional numbers - like $1500 BTC prices by the end of the year.

But then you're not talking about "investing" - you're talking about gambling.  Lots of people gamble - only a very few ever make anything from it.  But the "house" - always wins.

When I start seeing mining machinery go down into price range where they can pay themselves off in 30 days - based on an estimated difficulty level of 30 days out - then I'll start thinking the miner manufacturers are serious.

Right now - I think what they do is come out with new machines, run them for a period of time and then sell them off just as they're getting towards their payoff period.  That's why you see a number of people mentioning here in this thread that their S2's are coming thru with dust sucked into the power supplies.

[dalenorman2005]

That's why you see a number of people mentioning here in this thread that their S2's are coming thru with dust sucked into the power supplies.

To be clear, my S2's all appear brand new.  the boards are spotless and appear right off of an assembly line.  the heat sinks even have some shaved metal hanging from their edges, as if they were hastily chopped to size on a bandsaw a week ago - which i'm sure they were.

One of my S2's even had the sticker covering it's little piezo speaker still attached.  it read "remove after cleaning". 

I'm confident that these S2's are new and unused.  Their power supplies, on the other hand, are clearly well used. but i don't really care.  I imagine Bitmaintech sourced a ton of used power supplies.

Personally, i'd rather get an S2 with used power supply then 5 S1's and have to DIY bolt them to a power supply or two of my own.  I've seen some rather scary S1 setups - glad to see mining becoming a little less fire hazardous.

[nottm28]

If you're just looking to piss thru money - there's an awful lot of things in the world  you can do that with - that are a lot more "fun" than BTC mining.

mining is fun. how many people buy a $200 box of lego, spend 2-3 days assembling it, and then put it away on a shelf as a decoration? setting up computer gear is fun for some people.

you can blow $1000 gambling for a few hours of fun in vegas and walk away empty-handed.  Some people like me would consider bitcoin mining as a bit of a hobby, particularly one that can make a bit of profit if things go well. not many hobbies make any money.

also, mining depends on your outlook on BTC. do you see it at $1500 or $150 by the end of 2014? Its going to be at one of those extremes, and my money is on it going up (literally). I don't think its hard to envision a near-future where huge facilities hosting 10-20PH of power are located all over the globe, run by both private investors and/or banks and investment firms who want to produce their own bitcoins.  If bitcoin continues to be the leading solution for a future-proof currency it will be very valuable in 5 years from now

BTC - in the US at least (and China for that matter) - is not going to get treated as "currency" - because the IRS is going to take a cut every single time you do an exchange where you make a gain.  This means that to deal in BTC at all - you're going to have to keep copious records of all of your transactions if you ever enter 'the system' with BTC.

Bitcoin is more like a stock - that can be more freely traded - than it is a currency.  And the government takes a cut out of stock transactions.

If you want to justify doing it on the basis that it's fun - that's fine.  But I've yet to see anybody lately coming out with any math that proves that the mining thing is profitable - unless their doing what I proposed previously - and just pushing off all the costs onto somebody else.

To answer  your question: no I don't see BTC at $1500 for sure.  It might go there - but then again Apple stock *might* go there too.   But what you're proposing here as a justification is just a unicorn dream.  Not a sound basis for "investing" in mining machinery.

If I spend $3000 on a new welder - I can put it out in my garage and build stuff with it.  If I'm in the business of making things - I can make stuff and sell it - or even if I just use it to fix broken stuff, I can justify the cost by how much money I saved fixing things myself over some number of years.  Plus the welder WILL hold residual value over time.  So figuring out it's payback time is pretty easy.  Applying the same methodology to mining machinery - the payback just isn't there, UNLESS - you start plugging in fictional numbers - like $1500 BTC prices by the end of the year.

But then you're not talking about "investing" - you're talking about gambling.  Lots of people gamble - only a very few ever make anything from it.  But the "house" - always wins.

When I start seeing mining machinery go down into price range where they can pay themselves off in 30 days - based on an estimated difficulty level of 30 days out - then I'll start thinking the miner manufacturers are serious.

Right now - I think what they do is come out with new machines, run them for a period of time and then sell them off just as they're getting towards their payoff period.  That's why you see a number of people mentioning here in this thread that their S2's are coming thru with dust sucked into the power supplies.

Great, another doomsday newbie who's come here 'save' everyone from themselves and to tell everyone what's what with bitcoin...

[Threader]

miner sages around here as common as cockroaches at Taco Bell.

[ipxtreme]

the new firmware fixed the subnet issue for me   

The 192.168.1.1 router issue?

Yes. Before the update I had to edit cgminer.sh after every reboot, now I don't have to.

does this firmware let you change the default password?

[dalenorman2005]

yes, i agree the subnet problem is fixed.  no problem here with 192.168.2.x via DHCP.

I have not tried changing the default password yet.  would love to hear from someone who's taken that plunge and lived to tell about it.

[jamesg]

I have not tried changing the default password yet.  would love to hear from someone who's taken that plunge and lived to tell about it.

Changing the password for the web admin will work.

Changing the password for SSH (aka root linux user) will be reset on reboot.

[claudesdad]

Great, another doomsday newbie who's come here 'save' everyone from themselves and to tell everyone what's what with bitcoin...

I didn't say anything about Bitcoin itself - I said the mining numbers don't work.

I don't see anybody disputing me with some actual numbers.

What I see are people acting just like all the people I talk to on other forums - who think that because Mt. Gox was a disaster - that all of Bitcoin is a disaster.

It's the same mentality just coming from a different direction.

What I see are people who act just like the "investors" I've dealt with over the years who think that Apple stock , or Google stock, or Pets Online whatever stock - will go to $1000 a share,  or the people who think that gold will go to $10,000 an ounce.

Their numbers only work when  you apply a very high bullshit hope and change factor. And that shit doesn't work in the real world.

I said mining doesn't seem to be worth it - if YOU actually have to absorb ALL of the costs - unless the machine pays itself off in 30 or maybe 45 days - tops.  If it goes longer than that - the difficulty increase and NOW - the IRS coming in and wanting to take capital gains taxes - is going to make it a money loser.

Every single miner asic company I've seen - is pricing their machines so high that the buyers will pretty much never get ROI on them.

Prove me wrong - show me the numbers.  I'm fully willing to admit I'm wrong on this - but you're going to have to prove it.

[nottm28]

Great, another doomsday newbie who's come here 'save' everyone from themselves and to tell everyone what's what with bitcoin...

I didn't say anything about Bitcoin itself - I said the mining numbers don't work.

I don't see anybody disputing me with some actual numbers.

What I see are people acting just like all the people I talk to on other forums - who think that because Mt. Gox was a disaster - that all of Bitcoin is a disaster.

It's the same mentality just coming from a different direction.

What I see are people who act just like the "investors" I've dealt with over the years who think that Apple stock , or Google stock, or Pets Online whatever stock - will go to $1000 a share,  or the people who think that gold will go to $10,000 an ounce.

Their numbers only work when  you apply a very high bullshit hope and change factor. And that shit doesn't work in the real world.

I said mining doesn't seem to be worth it - if YOU actually have to absorb ALL of the costs - unless the machine pays itself off in 30 or maybe 45 days - tops.  If it goes longer than that - the difficulty increase and NOW - the IRS coming in and wanting to take capital gains taxes - is going to make it a money loser.

Every single miner asic company I've seen - is pricing their machines so high that the buyers will pretty much never get ROI on them.

Prove me wrong - show me the numbers.  I'm fully willing to admit I'm wrong on this - but you're going to have to prove it.

Ok, a bit harsh with my newbie comment, apologies. It's not all doom though. If you watch the hardware and group buy forums then you learn to get a heads up as to what miners are about to be released. It's probably wise to steer clear from batch 1s. But if you jump in early with a batch 2 or 3 when the miner price is dropping, then you can get hardware that will ROI. There are plenty of good ROI calculators that take into account electricity and insanely increasing difficulty. I used http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/ 3-4 weeks ago to see if I would make any profit on 6 x ant S1s and the numbers looked OK. Now I have nearly 4 coins and expect to earn a few more at least. So it's not impossible, you just have to watch what's going on a lot...

[edit] I'm hoping for a significant price drop on the S2 future batches - the current numbers plugged into the calculator I mentioned don't work - you are correct on that...

[AbiTxGroup]

Great, another doomsday newbie who's come here 'save' everyone from themselves and to tell everyone what's what with bitcoin...

I didn't say anything about Bitcoin itself - I said the mining numbers don't work.

I don't see anybody disputing me with some actual numbers.

What I see are people acting just like all the people I talk to on other forums - who think that because Mt. Gox was a disaster - that all of Bitcoin is a disaster.

It's the same mentality just coming from a different direction.

What I see are people who act just like the "investors" I've dealt with over the years who think that Apple stock , or Google stock, or Pets Online whatever stock - will go to $1000 a share,  or the people who think that gold will go to $10,000 an ounce.

Their numbers only work when  you apply a very high bullshit hope and change factor. And that shit doesn't work in the real world.

I said mining doesn't seem to be worth it - if YOU actually have to absorb ALL of the costs - unless the machine pays itself off in 30 or maybe 45 days - tops.  If it goes longer than that - the difficulty increase and NOW - the IRS coming in and wanting to take capital gains taxes - is going to make it a money loser.

Every single miner asic company I've seen - is pricing their machines so high that the buyers will pretty much never get ROI on them.

Prove me wrong - show me the numbers.  I'm fully willing to admit I'm wrong on this - but you're going to have to prove it.

Ok, a bit harsh with my newbie comment, apologies. It's not all doom though. If you watch the hardware and group buy forums then you learn to get a heads up as to what miners are about to be released. It's probably wise to steer clear from batch 1s. But if you jump in early with a batch 2 or 3 when the miner price is dropping, then you can get hardware that will ROI. There are plenty of good ROI calculators that take into account electricity and insanely increasing difficulty. I used http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/ 3-4 weeks ago to see if I would make any profit on 6 x ant S1s and the numbers looked OK. Now I have nearly 4 coins and expect to earn a few more at least. So it's not impossible, you just have to watch what's going on a lot...

[edit] I'm hoping for a significant price drop on the S2 future batches - the current numbers plugged into the calculator I mentioned don't work - you are correct on that...

Shouldn't this non-topic discussion be moved to the Mining Speculation section since that section is identified as the area for "Speculation about mining hardware, difficulty, profitability, etc."

[BITCOINBLUES]

Its not speculation its the TRUTH and is warranted because he is telling people not to waste their money in a mining thread!

These guys don't deserve this B.S., why don't you stick up for the little guy not your scamming seller friends.

Some community, people these idiots don't give a shit about anything except that you buy BTC so they can cash you in!

[nottm28]

Shouldn't this non-topic discussion be moved to the Mining Speculation section since that section is identified as the area for "Speculation about mining hardware, difficulty, profitability, etc."

Sheesh, I bet if I take a look through your post history, every single one of your posts would be completely relevant and on topic to the thread.

[HolyScott]

Is anyone from this thread going to the Inside Bitcoin Conference in NYC monday and tuesday? I would offer to give one of the programmers an inside look at the S2, mainly to solve this insanely high reject rate, but that is probably now irrelevant with the sd card image now posted.

[jamesg]

Here are the calcs.
1114W load @ 110V.
90.5% efficient @ 100% load @ 110V.
Internal load of 1008W.

And on 230V
92% efficient
Internal load of 1008W.
External power draw of 1095W.



PSU is specifically designed for 24/7 use @ 50C. Therefore there is a significant thermal safety factor on max load alone - even forgetting the usual one.
Tldr, its k.

We ran a test this morning on our S2 and was pulling 5.2 amps at 208v for a total of 1082 watts. Hopefully the chips are being driven too hard by the cgminer driver and can be calmed down a bit.

This could really though a wrench in my plans for world domination via S2 miners... 

[aztecminer]

If you're just looking to piss thru money - there's an awful lot of things in the world  you can do that with - that are a lot more "fun" than BTC mining.

mining is fun. how many people buy a $200 box of lego, spend 2-3 days assembling it, and then put it away on a shelf as a decoration? setting up computer gear is fun for some people.

you can blow $1000 gambling for a few hours of fun in vegas and walk away empty-handed.  Some people like me would consider bitcoin mining as a bit of a hobby, particularly one that can make a bit of profit if things go well. not many hobbies make any money.

also, mining depends on your outlook on BTC. do you see it at $1500 or $150 by the end of 2014? Its going to be at one of those extremes, and my money is on it going up (literally). I don't think its hard to envision a near-future where huge facilities hosting 10-20PH of power are located all over the globe, run by both private investors and/or banks and investment firms who want to produce their own bitcoins.  If bitcoin continues to be the leading solution for a future-proof currency it will be very valuable in 5 years from now

BTC - in the US at least (and China for that matter) - is not going to get treated as "currency" - because the IRS is going to take a cut every single time you do an exchange where you make a gain.  This means that to deal in BTC at all - you're going to have to keep copious records of all of your transactions if you ever enter 'the system' with BTC.

Bitcoin is more like a stock - that can be more freely traded - than it is a currency.  And the government takes a cut out of stock transactions.

If you want to justify doing it on the basis that it's fun - that's fine.  But I've yet to see anybody lately coming out with any math that proves that the mining thing is profitable - unless their doing what I proposed previously - and just pushing off all the costs onto somebody else.

To answer  your question: no I don't see BTC at $1500 for sure.  It might go there - but then again Apple stock *might* go there too.   But what you're proposing here as a justification is just a unicorn dream.  Not a sound basis for "investing" in mining machinery.

If I spend $3000 on a new welder - I can put it out in my garage and build stuff with it.  If I'm in the business of making things - I can make stuff and sell it - or even if I just use it to fix broken stuff, I can justify the cost by how much money I saved fixing things myself over some number of years.  Plus the welder WILL hold residual value over time.  So figuring out it's payback time is pretty easy.  Applying the same methodology to mining machinery - the payback just isn't there, UNLESS - you start plugging in fictional numbers - like $1500 BTC prices by the end of the year.

But then you're not talking about "investing" - you're talking about gambling.  Lots of people gamble - only a very few ever make anything from it.  But the "house" - always wins.

When I start seeing mining machinery go down into price range where they can pay themselves off in 30 days - based on an estimated difficulty level of 30 days out - then I'll start thinking the miner manufacturers are serious.

Right now - I think what they do is come out with new machines, run them for a period of time and then sell them off just as they're getting towards their payoff period.  That's why you see a number of people mentioning here in this thread that their S2's are coming thru with dust sucked into the power supplies.

actually it is a little more complex than what you are saying. you see the mined coins are taxed as 'income' based upon the supposed 'value' of bitcoin at the moment that it hits your wallet from the mining pool. then it is taxed a second time with a capital gains tax based upon the 'value' of the bitcoin when you sell it or buy something with it.

however since mining produces an 'income' which it is taxed on then the miner hardware, heat sinks, psu's, electricity, internet, your rack space, your office space, etc. can be claimed on your taxes if one were to assume the stance of a business with a business license ..

like you say ... it seems mining will be profitable depending on if the price of the bitcoin were to rise .. this leads us to many questions about the us govy and the irs and their taxing bitcoin the way they are taxing it. one question being do they want to kill mining in the usa by taxing it as an income ?? then the next question is are they trying to kill bitcoin being used as a currency by taxing it as a capital gains every transaction ?? and do they foresee bitcoin rising in value in the future ?? are they taxing the miners to attempt to shake loose some of their hoarded coins to pay for their taxes ??

i don't know all the answers to those questions but what i do know is the us reserve currency is on it's death bed. china hit bitcoin with another ban stick for usa tax day april 15th. china and russia along with the SCO countries have been buying and hoarding massive gold in preparation for a gold standard reserve currency replacement. what is the us govy plan to replace the dying us reserve currency dollar ?? therefore if the us govy were attempting to end mining in the usa then that makes me mine even more for several reasons which i won't mention atm.

bitcoin has become part of the currency wars and i think it is from this perspective that we must view bitcoin to decide if mining is profitable. i am personally considering this as i think about how many S2's or other bitmain mining gear i am going to buy this year. my decision is already been made before the us govy tax bat on whether i am going to play this currency wars hard or not.

  

[btc_jumpnrl]

I'm looking to load balance my S2. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395721.msg5452008#msg5452008 has basically what I want so I can do it through the GUI, but i don't see the first set of if statements about the pools that I'm supposed to modify in /etc/init.d/cgminer. I can set load-balance in params, and then go to config and manual enter them but I'd rather be able to do it through the GUI for more ease of access.

Damn slush for two blocks in last 24 hours.