Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[suchmoon]

~

You may want to clean the foam off your mouth.

I'm not trying to convince you one way or another. You clearly have a bias here that seems to be rooted in Soviet/Russian history books, where only nazis committed atrocities, whereas soviets were the liberators and anyone who fought against soviets was automatically a nazi.

For example, just in this war Russian invaders killed thousands of civilians in Ukraine. I'm gonna guess that you will not call every pro-Russian collaborator in the occupied territories a criminal who killed thousands of civilians. Am I right? "Litmus test" for you.

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[TwitchySeal]

Looks like this is not the first time around, CIA operation Red Sox, US sponsors Ukrainians who weren't just Nazis but did Nazis' "dirty work". And who's the head of said directly linked Nazi group OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists)? You guessed it, the "hero" Stepan Bandera.

Bandera was a Ukrainian nationalist, who fought against Soviets and against Nazis. Ended up imprisoned in the same concentration camp as Stalin's son IIRC. Allegedly for helping Jews, despite having anti-semitic views. Controversial figure. But that doesn't fit your narrative, does it? Black or white, putinist or nazi, no other options.

Oh he fought against Nazis, now did he? Care to site how many Nazis he killed, jews he helped (i'd love to read about that) to offset tens of thousand innocent people women and children he murdered, so you feel justified calling him "controversial" instead of straight out condemning this asshole? I'm guessing with such logic, you consider Hitler to be a controversial figure as well? I mean, he drew paintings and surely you can dig up some article of Hitler saving a kitten or a puppy or killing one Nazi at some point in his life before WW2? Are totenkopf, wolfsangle, blacksun, swastikas, and sieg heils are also just "controversial" articles for you, cause you know they were used before Nazi's?

Let's see what's Israelis stance on this point.

His group also was involved in the ethnic cleansing that killed tens of thousands of Poles in 1942-44. The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists portrayed Russians, Poles, Hungarians and Jews — most of the minorities in western Ukraine — as aliens and encouraged locals to “destroy” Poles and Jews.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kiev-renames-major-street-to-honor-russian-nazi-collaborator/

But that's back from 2015, i'm sure it has cleaned up since then right? From 2021 article:

Israel’s ambassador condemned the torchlight march Friday in Kyiv in memory of Stepan Bandera, issuing the strongest rebuke yet by an Israeli official of the event, which has grown in scope amid rising nationalism in Ukraine.

“We strongly condemn any glorification of collaborators with the Nazi regime. It is time for Ukraine to come to terms with its past,” Ambassador Joel Lion wrote on Twitter Saturday.
During World War II, Bandera led the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose men killed thousands of Jews and Poles, including women and children, while fighting alongside Nazi Germany against the Red Army and communists.

Expressions of admiration for Bandera and other collaborators have increased in scope and status following the 2014 revolution in Ukraine, which toppled the regime of Viktor Yanukovych amid claims that he is a Russian stooge, and triggered an armed conflict with Russia.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-march-in-ukraine-in-annual-tribute-to-nazi-collaborator/

Hmm okay how about other experts on this, the Germans

BURGER (AA): Die Bundesregierung verurteilt und stellt sich gegen jede Form von Antisemitismus und gegen jede Glorifizierung der Verbrechen der Nazis. Ich kann Ihnen ergänzend sagen, dass wir natürlich auch die von der Organisation Ukrainischer Nationalisten teilweise unter Leitung Banderas begangenen Verbrechen insbesondere an Zivilisten verurteilen. Ein erheblicher Anteil ‑ das muss man im Kopf behalten ‑ dieser Verbrechen wurde in Kollaboration mit deutschen Besatzungstruppen begangen.

Google Translate
BURGER (AA): The federal government condemns and opposes any form of anti-Semitism and any glorification of Nazi crimes. I can also tell you that we of course also condemn the crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians. A significant proportion - one must keep this in mind - of these crimes was committed in collaboration with German occupying forces.

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/newsroom/regierungspressekonferenz/2505386

I guess Germany and Israel don't know what you know, you should explain to them how this guy was "controversial". The guy literally killed 10.000 of innocent people, and you reluctance to call spade a spade is concerning. This really needs to be a litmus test, if you in any way support a guy that killed 10.000 of thousands  (uncontested) of innocent people you're a Nazi sympathizer or collaborator. He doesn't seem to be so controversial in Ukraine if government (presumably after lots of discussions) decided to name a street in a capital after this murderer.

Edit: If in your eyes Bandera is "controversial" care to provide an example of Nazi collaborators who you don't find to be controversial, or are you saying that all Nazi collaborators are somewhat controversial because they all can claim to be nationalists?  

Serious question, what are your thoughts on Stalin.  All this manufactured Nazi drama seems to be a distraction from the fact that when it comes to being responsible for human death and suffering, Hitler was a noob compared to Stalin.  And here we are watching Putin, the former KGB agent that never got over the collapse of the SU, make play after play directly from Stalins hand book. 

[suchmoon]

Ukraine: names a street after Bandera.

Russia: puts this guy into government positions...

Dmitry Olegovich Rogozin (Russian: Дми́тpий Oлéгoвич Poгóзин; born 21 December 1963) is a Russian politician who has been Director General of Roscosmos since 2018. He was previously Deputy Prime Minister of Russia in charge of the defense industry from 2011 to 2018, and Russia's ambassador to NATO from 2008 to 2011.

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian ultra-nationalists on Sunday chanted “Glory to Russia!” and waved banners reading “Jewish fascism! There is nothing scarier!” in a sanctioned rally condemned by human rights campaigners as racist.

About 200 activists and skinheads in black leather jackets and heavy boots gave Nazi-style salutes as organizers yelled nationalist slogans from a makeshift stage at one of Moscow’s central squares.

“Comrades! We are here to protect the people of Russia. This is our last frontier,” Dmitry Rogozin, a nationalist politician, told a cheering crowd as dozens of riot police looked on. Similar protests were held in St Petersburg and other cities.

Which one of these countries claims to be "denazifying" the other? Yep.

Russian propaganda is one huge projector.

[be.open]

combat lasers to fight drones

You watch too much Star Wars.

Russia tested a laser capable of burning drones in five seconds. 

[DaRude]

~

You may want to clean the foam off your mouth.

I'm not trying to convince you one way or another. You clearly have a bias here that seems to be rooted in Soviet/Russian history books, where only nazis committed atrocities, whereas soviets were the liberators and anyone who fought against soviets was automatically a nazi.

For example, just in this war Russian invaders killed thousands of civilians in Ukraine. I'm gonna guess that you will not call every pro-Russian collaborator in the occupied territories a criminal who killed thousands of civilians. Am I right? "Litmus test" for you.

Ukraine: names a street after Bandera.

Russia: puts this guy into government positions...

Dmitry Olegovich Rogozin (Russian: Дми́тpий Oлéгoвич Poгóзин; born 21 December 1963) is a Russian politician who has been Director General of Roscosmos since 2018. He was previously Deputy Prime Minister of Russia in charge of the defense industry from 2011 to 2018, and Russia's ambassador to NATO from 2008 to 2011.

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian ultra-nationalists on Sunday chanted “Glory to Russia!” and waved banners reading “Jewish fascism! There is nothing scarier!” in a sanctioned rally condemned by human rights campaigners as racist.

About 200 activists and skinheads in black leather jackets and heavy boots gave Nazi-style salutes as organizers yelled nationalist slogans from a makeshift stage at one of Moscow’s central squares.

“Comrades! We are here to protect the people of Russia. This is our last frontier,” Dmitry Rogozin, a nationalist politician, told a cheering crowd as dozens of riot police looked on. Similar protests were held in St Petersburg and other cities.

Which one of these countries claims to be "denazifying" the other? Yep.

Russian propaganda is one huge projector.

It scares me that you reached your pinnacle of cringe right on this topic. Person who yells WHATABOUTISM when i even slightly hint at a comparison (not a main rebuttal), blatantly doesn't answer a single direct question and just start discussing other people   surely the irony cannot be lost here

If US, Russia Germany and Israel (and the rest of the world for that matter, if there's a single country that doesn't condemn Bandera let me know) all condemn a murderer and you're naming streets after him, you just might be on the wrong side of history. Might be a good wake up call to review your worldview, instead of claiming that the world has a bias against you.

Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.

You seem to be confused (or rather trying your hardest to mislead) between being a nationalist and Bandera actively massacring innocent people.

Many of the Polish victims regardless of age or gender were tortured before being killed; some of the methods included rape, dismemberment or immolation, among others. The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths...the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose goal as specified at the Second Conference of the OUN-B on 17–23 February 1943 (March 1943 in some sources) was to purge all non-Ukrainians from the future Ukrainian state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia


Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street? this is beyond atrocious!

[DaRude]

Looks like this is not the first time around, CIA operation Red Sox, US sponsors Ukrainians who weren't just Nazis but did Nazis' "dirty work". And who's the head of said directly linked Nazi group OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists)? You guessed it, the "hero" Stepan Bandera.

Bandera was a Ukrainian nationalist, who fought against Soviets and against Nazis. Ended up imprisoned in the same concentration camp as Stalin's son IIRC. Allegedly for helping Jews, despite having anti-semitic views. Controversial figure. But that doesn't fit your narrative, does it? Black or white, putinist or nazi, no other options.

Oh he fought against Nazis, now did he? Care to site how many Nazis he killed, jews he helped (i'd love to read about that) to offset tens of thousand innocent people women and children he murdered, so you feel justified calling him "controversial" instead of straight out condemning this asshole? I'm guessing with such logic, you consider Hitler to be a controversial figure as well? I mean, he drew paintings and surely you can dig up some article of Hitler saving a kitten or a puppy or killing one Nazi at some point in his life before WW2? Are totenkopf, wolfsangle, blacksun, swastikas, and sieg heils are also just "controversial" articles for you, cause you know they were used before Nazi's?

Let's see what's Israelis stance on this point.

His group also was involved in the ethnic cleansing that killed tens of thousands of Poles in 1942-44. The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists portrayed Russians, Poles, Hungarians and Jews — most of the minorities in western Ukraine — as aliens and encouraged locals to “destroy” Poles and Jews.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kiev-renames-major-street-to-honor-russian-nazi-collaborator/

But that's back from 2015, i'm sure it has cleaned up since then right? From 2021 article:

Israel’s ambassador condemned the torchlight march Friday in Kyiv in memory of Stepan Bandera, issuing the strongest rebuke yet by an Israeli official of the event, which has grown in scope amid rising nationalism in Ukraine.

“We strongly condemn any glorification of collaborators with the Nazi regime. It is time for Ukraine to come to terms with its past,” Ambassador Joel Lion wrote on Twitter Saturday.
During World War II, Bandera led the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose men killed thousands of Jews and Poles, including women and children, while fighting alongside Nazi Germany against the Red Army and communists.

Expressions of admiration for Bandera and other collaborators have increased in scope and status following the 2014 revolution in Ukraine, which toppled the regime of Viktor Yanukovych amid claims that he is a Russian stooge, and triggered an armed conflict with Russia.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-march-in-ukraine-in-annual-tribute-to-nazi-collaborator/

Hmm okay how about other experts on this, the Germans

BURGER (AA): Die Bundesregierung verurteilt und stellt sich gegen jede Form von Antisemitismus und gegen jede Glorifizierung der Verbrechen der Nazis. Ich kann Ihnen ergänzend sagen, dass wir natürlich auch die von der Organisation Ukrainischer Nationalisten teilweise unter Leitung Banderas begangenen Verbrechen insbesondere an Zivilisten verurteilen. Ein erheblicher Anteil ‑ das muss man im Kopf behalten ‑ dieser Verbrechen wurde in Kollaboration mit deutschen Besatzungstruppen begangen.

Google Translate
BURGER (AA): The federal government condemns and opposes any form of anti-Semitism and any glorification of Nazi crimes. I can also tell you that we of course also condemn the crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians. A significant proportion - one must keep this in mind - of these crimes was committed in collaboration with German occupying forces.

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/newsroom/regierungspressekonferenz/2505386

I guess Germany and Israel don't know what you know, you should explain to them how this guy was "controversial". The guy literally killed 10.000 of innocent people, and you reluctance to call spade a spade is concerning. This really needs to be a litmus test, if you in any way support a guy that killed 10.000 of thousands  (uncontested) of innocent people you're a Nazi sympathizer or collaborator. He doesn't seem to be so controversial in Ukraine if government (presumably after lots of discussions) decided to name a street in a capital after this murderer.

Edit: If in your eyes Bandera is "controversial" care to provide an example of Nazi collaborators who you don't find to be controversial, or are you saying that all Nazi collaborators are somewhat controversial because they all can claim to be nationalists?  

Serious question, what are your thoughts on Stalin.  All this manufactured Nazi drama seems to be a distraction from the fact that when it comes to being responsible for human death and suffering, Hitler was a noob compared to Stalin.  And here we are watching Putin, the former KGB agent that never got over the collapse of the SU, make play after play directly from Stalins hand book.  

Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?

Now what Hitler did was a genocide, he systematically exterminated six million Jews in concentration camps; and in gas chambers and gas vans in German extermination camps.

These numbers are only from the Holocaust (don't include deaths due to war):

Victims	Murdered
Jews	5.7 million
Soviet civilians	Approximately 6 million
Soviet POWs	2.8–3.3 million
Poles	1.8–3 million
Serbs	300,000–600,000
Disabled people	270,000
Romani	130,000–500,000
Freemasons	80,000–200,000
Slovenes	20,000–25,000
Homosexuals	5,000–15,000
Spanish Republicans	3,500
Jehovah's Witnesses	1,250–5,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

World War II losses of the Soviet Union from all related causes were about 27,000,000 both civilian and military

Now I'm giving you a benefit of a doubt and I really hope your audacity to claim that "Hitler was a noob compared to Stalin" just comes from your illiteracy. If so not all is lost, but you should really educate yourself before posting nonsense, or parroting keywords you hear in the media.

[af_newbie]

Looks like this is not the first time around, CIA operation Red Sox, US sponsors Ukrainians who weren't just Nazis but did Nazis' "dirty work". And who's the head of said directly linked Nazi group OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists)? You guessed it, the "hero" Stepan Bandera.

Bandera was a Ukrainian nationalist, who fought against Soviets and against Nazis. Ended up imprisoned in the same concentration camp as Stalin's son IIRC. Allegedly for helping Jews, despite having anti-semitic views. Controversial figure. But that doesn't fit your narrative, does it? Black or white, putinist or nazi, no other options.

Oh he fought against Nazis, now did he? Care to site how many Nazis he killed, jews he helped (i'd love to read about that) to offset tens of thousand innocent people women and children he murdered, so you feel justified calling him "controversial" instead of straight out condemning this asshole? I'm guessing with such logic, you consider Hitler to be a controversial figure as well? I mean, he drew paintings and surely you can dig up some article of Hitler saving a kitten or a puppy or killing one Nazi at some point in his life before WW2? Are totenkopf, wolfsangle, blacksun, swastikas, and sieg heils are also just "controversial" articles for you, cause you know they were used before Nazi's?

Let's see what's Israelis stance on this point.

His group also was involved in the ethnic cleansing that killed tens of thousands of Poles in 1942-44. The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists portrayed Russians, Poles, Hungarians and Jews — most of the minorities in western Ukraine — as aliens and encouraged locals to “destroy” Poles and Jews.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kiev-renames-major-street-to-honor-russian-nazi-collaborator/

But that's back from 2015, i'm sure it has cleaned up since then right? From 2021 article:

Israel’s ambassador condemned the torchlight march Friday in Kyiv in memory of Stepan Bandera, issuing the strongest rebuke yet by an Israeli official of the event, which has grown in scope amid rising nationalism in Ukraine.

“We strongly condemn any glorification of collaborators with the Nazi regime. It is time for Ukraine to come to terms with its past,” Ambassador Joel Lion wrote on Twitter Saturday.
During World War II, Bandera led the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose men killed thousands of Jews and Poles, including women and children, while fighting alongside Nazi Germany against the Red Army and communists.

Expressions of admiration for Bandera and other collaborators have increased in scope and status following the 2014 revolution in Ukraine, which toppled the regime of Viktor Yanukovych amid claims that he is a Russian stooge, and triggered an armed conflict with Russia.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-march-in-ukraine-in-annual-tribute-to-nazi-collaborator/

Hmm okay how about other experts on this, the Germans

BURGER (AA): Die Bundesregierung verurteilt und stellt sich gegen jede Form von Antisemitismus und gegen jede Glorifizierung der Verbrechen der Nazis. Ich kann Ihnen ergänzend sagen, dass wir natürlich auch die von der Organisation Ukrainischer Nationalisten teilweise unter Leitung Banderas begangenen Verbrechen insbesondere an Zivilisten verurteilen. Ein erheblicher Anteil ‑ das muss man im Kopf behalten ‑ dieser Verbrechen wurde in Kollaboration mit deutschen Besatzungstruppen begangen.

Google Translate
BURGER (AA): The federal government condemns and opposes any form of anti-Semitism and any glorification of Nazi crimes. I can also tell you that we of course also condemn the crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians. A significant proportion - one must keep this in mind - of these crimes was committed in collaboration with German occupying forces.

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/newsroom/regierungspressekonferenz/2505386

I guess Germany and Israel don't know what you know, you should explain to them how this guy was "controversial". The guy literally killed 10.000 of innocent people, and you reluctance to call spade a spade is concerning. This really needs to be a litmus test, if you in any way support a guy that killed 10.000 of thousands  (uncontested) of innocent people you're a Nazi sympathizer or collaborator. He doesn't seem to be so controversial in Ukraine if government (presumably after lots of discussions) decided to name a street in a capital after this murderer.

Edit: If in your eyes Bandera is "controversial" care to provide an example of Nazi collaborators who you don't find to be controversial, or are you saying that all Nazi collaborators are somewhat controversial because they all can claim to be nationalists?  

Serious question, what are your thoughts on Stalin.  All this manufactured Nazi drama seems to be a distraction from the fact that when it comes to being responsible for human death and suffering, Hitler was a noob compared to Stalin.  And here we are watching Putin, the former KGB agent that never got over the collapse of the SU, make play after play directly from Stalins hand book.  

Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?

Now what Hitler did was a genocide, he systematically exterminated six million Jews in concentration camps; and in gas chambers and gas vans in German extermination camps.

These numbers are only from the Holocaust (don't include deaths due to war):

Victims	Murdered
Jews	5.7 million
Soviet civilians	Approximately 6 million
Soviet POWs	2.8–3.3 million
Poles	1.8–3 million
Serbs	300,000–600,000
Disabled people	270,000
Romani	130,000–500,000
Freemasons	80,000–200,000
Slovenes	20,000–25,000
Homosexuals	5,000–15,000
Spanish Republicans	3,500
Jehovah's Witnesses	1,250–5,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

World War II losses of the Soviet Union from all related causes were about 27,000,000 both civilian and military

Now I'm giving you a benefit of a doubt and I really hope your audacity to claim that "Hitler was a noob compared to Stalin" just comes from your illiteracy. If so not all is lost, but you should really educate yourself before posting nonsense, or parroting keywords you hear in the media.

How many Russians died in WWII?

[DaRude]

Looks like this is not the first time around, CIA operation Red Sox, US sponsors Ukrainians who weren't just Nazis but did Nazis' "dirty work". And who's the head of said directly linked Nazi group OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists)? You guessed it, the "hero" Stepan Bandera.

Bandera was a Ukrainian nationalist, who fought against Soviets and against Nazis. Ended up imprisoned in the same concentration camp as Stalin's son IIRC. Allegedly for helping Jews, despite having anti-semitic views. Controversial figure. But that doesn't fit your narrative, does it? Black or white, putinist or nazi, no other options.

Oh he fought against Nazis, now did he? Care to site how many Nazis he killed, jews he helped (i'd love to read about that) to offset tens of thousand innocent people women and children he murdered, so you feel justified calling him "controversial" instead of straight out condemning this asshole? I'm guessing with such logic, you consider Hitler to be a controversial figure as well? I mean, he drew paintings and surely you can dig up some article of Hitler saving a kitten or a puppy or killing one Nazi at some point in his life before WW2? Are totenkopf, wolfsangle, blacksun, swastikas, and sieg heils are also just "controversial" articles for you, cause you know they were used before Nazi's?

Let's see what's Israelis stance on this point.

His group also was involved in the ethnic cleansing that killed tens of thousands of Poles in 1942-44. The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists portrayed Russians, Poles, Hungarians and Jews — most of the minorities in western Ukraine — as aliens and encouraged locals to “destroy” Poles and Jews.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kiev-renames-major-street-to-honor-russian-nazi-collaborator/

But that's back from 2015, i'm sure it has cleaned up since then right? From 2021 article:

Israel’s ambassador condemned the torchlight march Friday in Kyiv in memory of Stepan Bandera, issuing the strongest rebuke yet by an Israeli official of the event, which has grown in scope amid rising nationalism in Ukraine.

“We strongly condemn any glorification of collaborators with the Nazi regime. It is time for Ukraine to come to terms with its past,” Ambassador Joel Lion wrote on Twitter Saturday.
During World War II, Bandera led the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose men killed thousands of Jews and Poles, including women and children, while fighting alongside Nazi Germany against the Red Army and communists.

Expressions of admiration for Bandera and other collaborators have increased in scope and status following the 2014 revolution in Ukraine, which toppled the regime of Viktor Yanukovych amid claims that he is a Russian stooge, and triggered an armed conflict with Russia.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-march-in-ukraine-in-annual-tribute-to-nazi-collaborator/

Hmm okay how about other experts on this, the Germans

BURGER (AA): Die Bundesregierung verurteilt und stellt sich gegen jede Form von Antisemitismus und gegen jede Glorifizierung der Verbrechen der Nazis. Ich kann Ihnen ergänzend sagen, dass wir natürlich auch die von der Organisation Ukrainischer Nationalisten teilweise unter Leitung Banderas begangenen Verbrechen insbesondere an Zivilisten verurteilen. Ein erheblicher Anteil ‑ das muss man im Kopf behalten ‑ dieser Verbrechen wurde in Kollaboration mit deutschen Besatzungstruppen begangen.

Google Translate
BURGER (AA): The federal government condemns and opposes any form of anti-Semitism and any glorification of Nazi crimes. I can also tell you that we of course also condemn the crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians. A significant proportion - one must keep this in mind - of these crimes was committed in collaboration with German occupying forces.

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/newsroom/regierungspressekonferenz/2505386

I guess Germany and Israel don't know what you know, you should explain to them how this guy was "controversial". The guy literally killed 10.000 of innocent people, and you reluctance to call spade a spade is concerning. This really needs to be a litmus test, if you in any way support a guy that killed 10.000 of thousands  (uncontested) of innocent people you're a Nazi sympathizer or collaborator. He doesn't seem to be so controversial in Ukraine if government (presumably after lots of discussions) decided to name a street in a capital after this murderer.

Edit: If in your eyes Bandera is "controversial" care to provide an example of Nazi collaborators who you don't find to be controversial, or are you saying that all Nazi collaborators are somewhat controversial because they all can claim to be nationalists?  

Serious question, what are your thoughts on Stalin.  All this manufactured Nazi drama seems to be a distraction from the fact that when it comes to being responsible for human death and suffering, Hitler was a noob compared to Stalin.  And here we are watching Putin, the former KGB agent that never got over the collapse of the SU, make play after play directly from Stalins hand book.  

Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?

Now what Hitler did was a genocide, he systematically exterminated six million Jews in concentration camps; and in gas chambers and gas vans in German extermination camps.

These numbers are only from the Holocaust (don't include deaths due to war):

Victims	Murdered
Jews	5.7 million
Soviet civilians	Approximately 6 million
Soviet POWs	2.8–3.3 million
Poles	1.8–3 million
Serbs	300,000–600,000
Disabled people	270,000
Romani	130,000–500,000
Freemasons	80,000–200,000
Slovenes	20,000–25,000
Homosexuals	5,000–15,000
Spanish Republicans	3,500
Jehovah's Witnesses	1,250–5,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

World War II losses of the Soviet Union from all related causes were about 27,000,000 both civilian and military

Now I'm giving you a benefit of a doubt and I really hope your audacity to claim that "Hitler was a noob compared to Stalin" just comes from your illiteracy. If so not all is lost, but you should really educate yourself before posting nonsense, or parroting keywords you hear in the media.

How many Russians died in WWII?

At least try to skimp the links i provide. You can't be so reliant on being spoon fed, then you just believe whatever you're being fed

Russian SFSR 13,950,000 dead more than 50% of which were civilians

[be.open]

Again, all this is good for short distance. UKR is now getting proper siege artillery, the modern ones that are accurate, fast firing and come with a range of ammo for various situations. We have already seen footage and my guess is we are going to see much more.

You are great for not losing heart. Meanwhile, 700 people left Azovstal during the day, and the total number of those who surrendered exceeded 900 people. I think the next tactical boiler will be near Avdeevka or near Lisichansk-Severodonetsk. Here and there, under the threat of encirclement of the APU grouping of about 15,000 soldiers, with Zelensky's order to stand to the death.

Loosing heart? The morale and conviction of Ukraine is 100x the Russ. It has taken your glorious Psychos in Chief months to defeat a regiment even under continuous shelling and siege. Is that how you intent to play this war?

Why not? Meanwhile, another 785 Azov fighters and soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine surrendered at Azovstal yesterday evening, in total, more than 1,500 people have been "evacuated" since the beginning of the week. According to yet unconfirmed reports, Svyatoslav Palamar (callsign Kalina) also surrendered.

[OutOfMemory]

combat lasers to fight drones

You watch too much Star Wars.

Russia tested a laser capable of burning drones in five seconds. 

Laser power is easy to evade. All you need is reflective surface.
Further downside, heat generation and laser beams are easy to track back. Gives another class of nice targets for UA artillery or infantry.
These devices will be eradicated, same as the tens of thousands of russian "elite" soldiers that were part of a 3-day special military operation in a sovereign country.

Sure, some of the Nazis have survived and organized themselves in small, rather unimportant groups since end of WW2, but Putin is Hitler 2.0.

As of Azov:

Simple choice:
Surrender and get killed in the process or starve to death and let your president look like a robot?
Which one seems more honorable to you?

Your nickname, though... 

[tvbcof]

Laser power is easy to evade. All you need is reflective surface.
...

Go ahead and so design/treat all the drones thusly then and see what that does to cost effectiveness.  Of course cost effectiveness doesn't matter when it's my tax dollars paying the bill, but 'nothing lasts forever.'

Speaking of fleet protection, I wonder what the board of directors of Starlink or whatever is going to do when their constellations are picked off or hoovered up as a result of supplying military class services to hostile powers during times of conflict.  They are a private company who can censor 'till the cows come home irrespective of quaint constitutional notions of freedom of speech and that sort of thing.  Sometimes international trade agreements and such go through a 'rocky patch'.

[suchmoon]

It scares me that you reached your pinnacle of cringe right on this topic. Person who yells WHATABOUTISM when i even slightly hint at a comparison (not a main rebuttal), blatantly doesn't answer a single direct question and just start discussing other people   surely the irony cannot be lost here

[...]

Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.

No, it's still you bringing in unrelated shit into this thread.

You brought up Bandera as one of the reasons Ukraine needs denazification (correct me if I'm wrong). I responded as to why that's absurd. If you can't make a coherent argument that's not really my fault.

The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths...the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm

[...]

Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street? this is beyond atrocious!

Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?

But still Bandera streets in Ukraine - bad, Ukraine needs denazifying.

Stalin streets in Russia - nah, I just don't condone it.

[TwitchySeal]

Looks like this is not the first time around, CIA operation Red Sox, US sponsors Ukrainians who weren't just Nazis but did Nazis' "dirty work". And who's the head of said directly linked Nazi group OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists)? You guessed it, the "hero" Stepan Bandera.

Bandera was a Ukrainian nationalist, who fought against Soviets and against Nazis. Ended up imprisoned in the same concentration camp as Stalin's son IIRC. Allegedly for helping Jews, despite having anti-semitic views. Controversial figure. But that doesn't fit your narrative, does it? Black or white, putinist or nazi, no other options.

Oh he fought against Nazis, now did he? Care to site how many Nazis he killed, jews he helped (i'd love to read about that) to offset tens of thousand innocent people women and children he murdered, so you feel justified calling him "controversial" instead of straight out condemning this asshole? I'm guessing with such logic, you consider Hitler to be a controversial figure as well? I mean, he drew paintings and surely you can dig up some article of Hitler saving a kitten or a puppy or killing one Nazi at some point in his life before WW2? Are totenkopf, wolfsangle, blacksun, swastikas, and sieg heils are also just "controversial" articles for you, cause you know they were used before Nazi's?

Let's see what's Israelis stance on this point.

His group also was involved in the ethnic cleansing that killed tens of thousands of Poles in 1942-44. The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists portrayed Russians, Poles, Hungarians and Jews — most of the minorities in western Ukraine — as aliens and encouraged locals to “destroy” Poles and Jews.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kiev-renames-major-street-to-honor-russian-nazi-collaborator/

But that's back from 2015, i'm sure it has cleaned up since then right? From 2021 article:

Israel’s ambassador condemned the torchlight march Friday in Kyiv in memory of Stepan Bandera, issuing the strongest rebuke yet by an Israeli official of the event, which has grown in scope amid rising nationalism in Ukraine.

“We strongly condemn any glorification of collaborators with the Nazi regime. It is time for Ukraine to come to terms with its past,” Ambassador Joel Lion wrote on Twitter Saturday.
During World War II, Bandera led the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose men killed thousands of Jews and Poles, including women and children, while fighting alongside Nazi Germany against the Red Army and communists.

Expressions of admiration for Bandera and other collaborators have increased in scope and status following the 2014 revolution in Ukraine, which toppled the regime of Viktor Yanukovych amid claims that he is a Russian stooge, and triggered an armed conflict with Russia.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-march-in-ukraine-in-annual-tribute-to-nazi-collaborator/

Hmm okay how about other experts on this, the Germans

BURGER (AA): Die Bundesregierung verurteilt und stellt sich gegen jede Form von Antisemitismus und gegen jede Glorifizierung der Verbrechen der Nazis. Ich kann Ihnen ergänzend sagen, dass wir natürlich auch die von der Organisation Ukrainischer Nationalisten teilweise unter Leitung Banderas begangenen Verbrechen insbesondere an Zivilisten verurteilen. Ein erheblicher Anteil ‑ das muss man im Kopf behalten ‑ dieser Verbrechen wurde in Kollaboration mit deutschen Besatzungstruppen begangen.

Google Translate
BURGER (AA): The federal government condemns and opposes any form of anti-Semitism and any glorification of Nazi crimes. I can also tell you that we of course also condemn the crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians. A significant proportion - one must keep this in mind - of these crimes was committed in collaboration with German occupying forces.

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/newsroom/regierungspressekonferenz/2505386

I guess Germany and Israel don't know what you know, you should explain to them how this guy was "controversial". The guy literally killed 10.000 of innocent people, and you reluctance to call spade a spade is concerning. This really needs to be a litmus test, if you in any way support a guy that killed 10.000 of thousands  (uncontested) of innocent people you're a Nazi sympathizer or collaborator. He doesn't seem to be so controversial in Ukraine if government (presumably after lots of discussions) decided to name a street in a capital after this murderer.

Edit: If in your eyes Bandera is "controversial" care to provide an example of Nazi collaborators who you don't find to be controversial, or are you saying that all Nazi collaborators are somewhat controversial because they all can claim to be nationalists?  

Serious question, what are your thoughts on Stalin.  All this manufactured Nazi drama seems to be a distraction from the fact that when it comes to being responsible for human death and suffering, Hitler was a noob compared to Stalin.  And here we are watching Putin, the former KGB agent that never got over the collapse of the SU, make play after play directly from Stalins hand book.  

Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?

Now what Hitler did was a genocide, he systematically exterminated six million Jews in concentration camps; and in gas chambers and gas vans in German extermination camps.

These numbers are only from the Holocaust (don't include deaths due to war):

Victims	Murdered
Jews	5.7 million
Soviet civilians	Approximately 6 million
Soviet POWs	2.8–3.3 million
Poles	1.8–3 million
Serbs	300,000–600,000
Disabled people	270,000
Romani	130,000–500,000
Freemasons	80,000–200,000
Slovenes	20,000–25,000
Homosexuals	5,000–15,000
Spanish Republicans	3,500
Jehovah's Witnesses	1,250–5,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

World War II losses of the Soviet Union from all related causes were about 27,000,000 both civilian and military

Now I'm giving you a benefit of a doubt and I really hope your audacity to claim that "Hitler was a noob compared to Stalin" just comes from your illiteracy. If so not all is lost, but you should really educate yourself before posting nonsense, or parroting keywords you hear in the media.

So, not trying to make light of what Hitler did at all, but Stalin was in power much longer than Hitler, and between the Famines, Gulags, Korean War (turns out that was on him somehow), mass execution's, there are historians say he's responsible for over 40 million victims, including 20 million deaths.  (Victims including those that survived the Gulags, were driven from their homes, towns destroyed, etc)

He was willing to have anyone killed for pretty much any reason.

World War II losses of the Soviet Union from all related causes were about 27,000,000 both civilian and military

^^^Stalin gets credit for a lot of that

He deliberately starved 3-4 million Ukranians to death, sent a million that didn't die of starvation to work camps (where most died of starvation), and then hunted down hundreds of thousands that left Ukraine for other parts of the SU, as well as any of their relatives and executed them.

He ordered any troop that surrendered or captured to be considered a trader and sentenced to death if they ever returned.  And he followed through. When the British and Americans liberated German camps, the Russian prisoners begged them to let them stay.  No joke.  Every Soviet prisoner that was returned to the SU killed.  The Brits and Americans had to trick them to get on the trains, and were later investigated for war crimes for doing so.

There was the "Not One Step Backward" rule, the military was ordered to kill any soldier that retreated for any reason.  There were special Russian units that were positioned just behind the front line who's only job was to kill other Russian soldiers that looked like they might be thinking about retreating.  Almost 200,000 were killed this way.

As of 2019, in Russia Stalin hit a record approval rating of 51% in 2019.  

The way Putin controls the media and cracks down on dissent is straight out of Stalins play book.  Even the way Putin invaded Ukraine, by claiming to only be there to "liberate" Russian speakers, is crazy similar to how Stalin justified invading Poland, claiming he was there to "liberate Ukrainians", but later it was revealed he had made a secret deal with Hitler to divy up the land and not get in each others way.

[be.open]

Sure, some of the Nazis have survived and organized themselves in small, rather unimportant groups since end of WW2, but Putin is Hitler 2.0.

In Kyiv, every year on January 1, the traditional Bandera torch march takes place, this year more than 3.5 thousand people took part in the procession under the protection of 2.5 thousand policemen.

Stalin streets in Russia - nah, I just don't condone it.

There are quite a few streets named after Stalin in Russia, half as many as Bandera streets in Ukraine (and almost all of them are concentrated in the Caucasus). There are also three Stalin streets in India, two in the UK, one street and Stalin Park in China, one street in France. You can have different attitudes towards Stalin, but it was he who led the USSR during the trip over Nazi Germany and the scale of his personality was much wider than that of Bandera. At the same time, mass demonstrations for the glory of Stalin are not held in Russia.

As of Azov:

Simple choice:
Surrender and get killed in the process or starve to death and let your president look like a robot?
Which one seems more honorable to you?

Your nickname, though...  

And where, for example, is the option to go on an assault and die in battle, trying to take as many enemies as possible with you? Isn't this the honor of an ideological warrior? Or at least put a bullet in the forehead to save the officer's honor from disgrace? Azov are weaklings, ordinary terrorists, unable to live with dignity or die with honor - this is my personal opinion, since you are clearly interested in it.

[suchmoon]

There are quite a few streets named after Stalin in Russia, half as many as Bandera streets in Ukraine (and almost all of them are concentrated in the Caucasus). There are also three Stalin streets in India, two in the UK, one street and Stalin Park in China, one street in France. You can have different attitudes towards Stalin, but it was he who led the USSR during the trip over Nazi Germany and the scale of his personality was much wider than that of Bandera. At the same time, mass demonstrations for the glory of Stalin are not held in Russia.

You're missing the point, comrade, just like your compatriot a few posts above. It's not up to me (or you, or your trollfarm, or Putin) to decide how Ukrainians (or Russians) should name their streets, let alone to invade sovereign countries on such flimsy premises. So perhaps you shouldn't start throwing swastika-shaped rocks out of your glass outhouse.

BTW there are state-organized mass demonstrations glorifying the current strain of fascism in Russia, which is far more concerning than even a pro-Stalin or pro-Lenin march would be.

[BADecker]

There are quite a few streets named after Stalin in Russia, half as many as Bandera streets in Ukraine (and almost all of them are concentrated in the Caucasus). There are also three Stalin streets in India, two in the UK, one street and Stalin Park in China, one street in France. You can have different attitudes towards Stalin, but it was he who led the USSR during the trip over Nazi Germany and the scale of his personality was much wider than that of Bandera. At the same time, mass demonstrations for the glory of Stalin are not held in Russia.

You're missing the point, comrade, just like your compatriot a few posts above. It's not up to me (or you, or your trollfarm, or Putin) to decide how Ukrainians (or Russians) should name their streets, let alone to invade sovereign countries on such flimsy premises. So perhaps you shouldn't start throwing swastika-shaped rocks out of your glass outhouse.

BTW there are state-organized mass demonstrations glorifying the current strain of fascism in Russia, which is far more concerning than even a pro-Stalin or pro-Lenin march would be.

The people of America are reasonable. They don't like the bad things that the US government is doing... when they find out about them. But the Russian people know about the fascism of the US government leaders. It's time somebody puts Biden and Congress in their place, because Americans are only starting to understand.

Back in the Stalin years, the people of Russia cried out to Americans for help. But most of us were so tied up with our wealth that we didn't understand their plight. As the Biden disasters and shortages start crossing America, Americans will come to understand. What will Russians do when the American people start crying out to them for help?

[LTU_btc]

According to yet unconfirmed reports, Svyatoslav Palamar (callsign Kalina) also surrendered.

Nope, he didn't surrender, he is still in Azovstal and made short video:
https://t.me/uniannet/55727

[suchmoon]

Another example of how glorious Russian military criminal gangs "liberate" Ukrainians from their lives:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/19/world/europe/russia-bucha-ukraine-executions.html (soft paywall, might work if you use a private tab or delete cookies)

Witness testimony and videos obtained by The New York Times show how Russian paratroopers executed at least eight Ukrainian men in a Kyiv suburb on March 4, a potential war crime.

[be.open]

There are quite a few streets named after Stalin in Russia, half as many as Bandera streets in Ukraine (and almost all of them are concentrated in the Caucasus). There are also three Stalin streets in India, two in the UK, one street and Stalin Park in China, one street in France. You can have different attitudes towards Stalin, but it was he who led the USSR during the trip over Nazi Germany and the scale of his personality was much wider than that of Bandera. At the same time, mass demonstrations for the glory of Stalin are not held in Russia.

You're missing the point, comrade, just like your compatriot a few posts above. It's not up to me (or you, or your trollfarm, or Putin) to decide how Ukrainians (or Russians) should name their streets, let alone to invade sovereign countries on such flimsy premises. So perhaps you shouldn't start throwing swastika-shaped rocks out of your glass outhouse.

Tell that to Australia, which sees China's military presence in the Solomon Islands, 1,500 kilometers from its borders, as an existential threat to its security. The problem is not that Ukraine considers Bandera and Shushkevich national heroes, the problem is that crowds of people chant "Kill the Russian" at the Bandera marches.

BTW there are state-organized mass demonstrations glorifying the current strain of fascism in Russia, which is far more concerning than even a pro-Stalin or pro-Lenin march would be.

Somehow I don't hear the cries of "Death to Ukraine" or something like that.

[DaRude]

It scares me that you reached your pinnacle of cringe right on this topic. Person who yells WHATABOUTISM when i even slightly hint at a comparison (not a main rebuttal), blatantly doesn't answer a single direct question and just start discussing other people   surely the irony cannot be lost here

[...]

Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.

No, it's still you bringing in unrelated shit into this thread.

You brought up Bandera as one of the reasons Ukraine needs denazification (correct me if I'm wrong). I responded as to why that's absurd. If you can't make a coherent argument that's not really my fault.

The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths...the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm

[...]

Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street? this is beyond atrocious!

Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?

But still Bandera streets in Ukraine - bad, Ukraine needs denazifying.

Stalin streets in Russia - nah, I just don't condone it.

Sometimes I feel like your reading comprehension is on a 6th grade level. Let's try once again, I brought up Bandera because I came across CIA's operation Red Sox where in 1949 CIA also tried to back Ukrainian independence by sponsoring Bandera, and CIA operations chief flat out admits that they were sponsoring a group directly linked to Nazi atrocities, even worse they did the Nazi's 'dirty work' (Bandera). Everyone seem to agree that this guy massacred/tortured/rapped lots of people, yet Ukrainians felt that he was the most deserving from all Ukrainians to name a street in his honor in the capital of Kyiv in 2016. Now this is where i get confused, you claim that there are only few Nazis in Ukraine but no more than in any other capital ok, so if you'd say that some idiot somehow managed to find some loophole and rename a street in the city after the murderer but once people found out there were protests etc but for one reason or the other they cannot change it to someone more deserving, i'd understand. But you don't say that at all, what scares me is your allusions, changing topic to other people, and reluctance to condemn Bandera makes it sound like that's wasn't an error at all, and most people do in fact support a guy who massacred innocent people. Am i mistaken? Is Bandera a hero to you?