Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[be.open]

Rumor has it

Rumor has it Russia is facing the possibility of losing Crimea.


Russia Could Actually Lose Territory Amid Ukraine War Disaster
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-kyiv-crimea-putin-zelensky-donbas-1708149

I don't see any consensus in the West on this issue. For example, according to the editorial opinion of the New York Times, a decisive Ukrainian military victory over Russia, in which Ukraine will regain all the territory captured by Russia since 2014, is not realistic.

Gas for rubles...oil for rubles...wheat for rubles...

I think I'm seeing a pattern here.  Wonder how a guy could get a hold of some rubles?  Oh hey, I know!

  https://currency.com/btc-to-rub

Wow, in looking at that chart it's showing pretty good performance for the big RUB over the last month!  Maybe because the last of the Rooskies has not quite yet been chased back across the border even though that event was just days away several months ago according to official Ukrainian sources.

Are the Russians also winning on the economic front? Hell, when you earn in BTC and spend in rubles, it's not so noticeable. This sword is double-edged, unfortunately or fortunately.

[tvbcof]

Gas for rubles...oil for rubles...wheat for rubles...
...

Are the Russians also winning on the economic front? Hell, when you earn in BTC and spend in rubles, it's not so noticeable. This sword is double-edged, unfortunately or fortunately.

Where I live it is 'light blue' (generally somewhat aligned with the West...read; 'dependent upon IMF and WorldBank') but people simply don't have the money to pay exponentially more for food, fuel, helicopters, etc, just to supposedly stick it to Russia 'because of things'.  I suspect that if the govt tries to make the peeps do so it may result in a collapse of the oligarchy.  Unless, by accident of fate, there are a lot fewer people somehow which is probably the best explanation for complicity in the globalist vaxx solution.

Anyway, I do suspect that Russian resource availability will overcome all, and brokering through cyrptocurrencies very well could end up being more economical and reliable than trying to get through either the existing Western dominated exchange frameworks or the hot mess which is sure to follow.

The above pretends that Putin is not 'in on it' with the rest of the NWO Globalists, and, as I judge things currently, that he is is more likely than not.

---
On a totally different topic:  Probably staged, but pretty funny:

  Jewkraine Soldier Captured: Mm y Russian is not good
  https://www.bitchute.com/video/Kbdvy2zRO4s9/

I find the (mis?)translation indicating that the little fella was told it was staged for 'American TV' to be especially interesting.

[Veleor]

Your loaded question on "rusophobia" aside, "examples of" is not equal to a widespread adoption of nazi ideology. Nazi/fascist elements can be found in any society that has a certain degree of freedom of speech. Only a few countries - Russia is among them, Ukraine is not - have adopted fascism as a policy.

Source

Stop engaging in demagogy. The Ukrainian Azov Battalion was recognized as a neo-Nazi group by the US Congress. 40 congressmen wanted it to be also considered a terrorist entity, but this initiative didn't pass then. Azov is officially part of the National Guard of Ukraine. What other countries have Nazis officially in the army, if you know of such examples?
You refuse to acknowledge the obvious. In Ukraine, civil servants (SBU - possibly like those who wear SS patches) killed their negotiator because they thought he supported pro-Russian views, and you just brush it off, like this is all nonsense and Putin propaganda.
From the 2nd minute of this video, SBU officer Vyacheslav Shevchuk recalled the mayor of Kremenny Vladimir Struk, who was waiting for the "Russian peace" and who was later found shot dead with a bag on his head. From 3 minutes 40 seconds, an SBU officer tells how six citizens were executed "without trial or investigation" accused of complicity with the Russian army, that they allegedly set up beacons. Some users may say that these are cruel wartime laws. And if, under the guise of traitors, objectionable people are thus eliminated? Because without a trial they can accuse any person of betrayal and immediately shoot him.
Ukrainian President Zelensky calls it "normal and cool" that some Ukrainians consider the Nazi Stepan Bandera a national hero. Zelensky's adviser, Mikhail Podolyak, says that in the south-eastern regions of Ukraine they should clear the land from collaborators and forget the word "Russian". Is it worth recalling that millions of Russian-speaking people live in these areas? Do you have any idea what will happen to them when the armed Ukrainian nationalists get there? Most likely, much worse than what happened in Donbass in 2014-2021, when 14,000 people died.

Code:

Mikhail Podolyak: "For me, it's important that we liberate the Kherson region,
and as harshly as possible for both collaborators and the Russian military.
We need the waters of the Sea of Azov.
I am in favor of forgetting the word "Russians" in the Kharkiv region.
I am in favor of forgetting the word "Russians" in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions
and that the criminal elements who call themselves the authorities should not be there physically.

Lyudmila Denisova

This is the same lady who claims that Russian soldiers rape Ukrainian women on Putin's orders. Do you unquestioningly believe her, even if her statements about child abuse contradict the Ukrainian Prosecutor General's Office?

Code:

Lyudmila Denisova: "The background is that they want to make it impossible for women to ever be able or want to have children again.
This is clear genocide. The soldiers rely on Putin's orders to destroy the entire country".
... Men and children are also raped. A mother was tied to a chair while her 11-year-old son was abused for 10 hours.
The 45-year-old man barely survived when he came out of his hiding place to fetch water.
They tortured and raped him.

One of those occupiers who raped Ukrainian women is in the photo. This is Bulat Lenarovych FASSAKHOV, born on November 20, 2001.

If he is guilty, he should be punished, better in Ukraine. There are hundreds of reports on the network about the atrocities of Russian soldiers. How many criminal cases have been opened and criminals named so far? None of the normal person will protect them. Ukrainian law enforcement agencies are required to publish complete information so that the thieves and rapists become known in Russia.
The Russian military also caught a Ukrainian rapist in Mariupol in April 2022. This is the deputy commander of the fire support company of the military unit A-2777, senior lieutenant Sergei Batynsky. He raped a woman at gunpoint and killed her husband.

Nonsense sounds like a correct description of what you're doing here. Again, going out of your way to find some minor, possibly out-of-context, tangential detail and ignoring actual facts.

You often quote American and English magazines, apparently considering them indisputable authoritative sources, to accuse Russia. Even the most famous newspaper is not a judicial department to accuse anyone, because there is such a thing as "presumption of innocence". Remember this definition? The United States is the main sponsor of Ukraine's military operations and is the most active on its side, and it is unlikely that there are large independent magazines anywhere in the world that are completely outside the control of governments. For prosecution, an international independent investigation must first be carried out. I and any adequate person will not defend criminals, no matter what country they belong to, if their guilt is proven in an independent court. Articles in an American, English, German and any other newspaper can serve as an additional source of information, but in no way can be evidence of a serious crime, especially now, during the open information war between the countries of the West and Russia.

Silver lining to dictator cracking down on dissent is the creative ways to protest.
Like switching price tags in the grocery store, or hacking the TV guide:

Just warn people that a woman who is accused of changing the price tag in a store now faces up to 10 years in a Russian prison.

Rumor has it Russia is facing the possibility of losing Crimea.
Russia Could Actually Lose Territory Amid Ukraine War Disaster
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-kyiv-crimea-putin-zelensky-donbas-1708149

This is an illusion, and a very dangerous one for all parties.
Ukraine will not be able to regain Crimea under any circumstances, since Russia's nuclear doctrine states that it will use nuclear weapons if the Kremlin decides that the existence of the state will be threatened.

Ukraine is preparing to extend the mobilization, the territorial defense is being sent to the front, criminals are being released from prisons so that they go to war. Whereas Russia has involved so far 15% of the total Russian army (150,000 out of 1 million). In Russia, you don't even need to declare mobilization, as there are unused contract soldiers, volunteers who fully support Putin's policies, and militant citizens with combat experience who want to go to the front.

- This conflict will drag on because the act of surrender and the surrender of several regions will mean a death sentence for Zelensky. If he admits defeat, he will be executed by his own nationalists, as was the case with one of the Ukrainian negotiators, therefore Zelensky puts conditions that are impossible for Russia to fulfill, he will negotiate only if Donbass, Crimea and the Kherson region are given to Ukraine.
- Russia will not give up these territories and will continue the offensive. If the Russian command feels that they will not be able to win this war, then they can use nuclear weapons, since for it the retreat and loss of territories is comparable to self-destruction. After admitting defeat, Russia will be in a much worse position than it is now, under > 10,000 sanctions. Even those who were neutral will turn away from her, and, most likely, a civil war will begin in the country, since the Russian population will not forgive such a result to their government. Therefore, the issue of victory is a matter of survival for Russia, it cannot simply turn back.
- The US views Ukraine as its own important strategic and economic asset. The US government has invested tens of billions of dollars in Ukraine, for years prepared Ukraine for resistance to Russia, pumped it up with weapons and most likely US doesn't want to give Russia the giant shale gas deposits in the Donbass.

[af_newbie]

Your loaded question on "rusophobia" aside, "examples of" is not equal to a widespread adoption of nazi ideology. Nazi/fascist elements can be found in any society that has a certain degree of freedom of speech. Only a few countries - Russia is among them, Ukraine is not - have adopted fascism as a policy.

Source

Stop engaging in demagogy. The Ukrainian Azov Battalion was recognized as a neo-Nazi group by the US Congress. 40 congressmen wanted it to be also considered a terrorist entity, but this initiative didn't pass then. Azov is officially part of the National Guard of Ukraine. What other countries have Nazis officially in the army, if you know of such examples?
You refuse to acknowledge the obvious. In Ukraine, civil servants (SBU - possibly like those who wear SS patches) killed their negotiator because they thought he supported pro-Russian views, and you just brush it off, like this is all nonsense and Putin propaganda.
From the 2nd minute of this video, SBU officer Vyacheslav Shevchuk recalled the mayor of Kremenny Vladimir Struk, who was waiting for the "Russian peace" and who was later found shot dead with a bag on his head. From 3 minutes 40 seconds, an SBU officer tells how six citizens were executed "without trial or investigation" accused of complicity with the Russian army, that they allegedly set up beacons. Some users may say that these are cruel wartime laws. And if, under the guise of traitors, objectionable people are thus eliminated? Because without a trial they can accuse any person of betrayal and immediately shoot him.
Ukrainian President Zelensky calls it "normal and cool" that some Ukrainians consider the Nazi Stepan Bandera a national hero. Zelensky's adviser, Mikhail Podolyak, says that in the south-eastern regions of Ukraine they should clear the land from collaborators and forget the word "Russian". Is it worth recalling that millions of Russian-speaking people live in these areas? Do you have any idea what will happen to them when the armed Ukrainian nationalists get there? Most likely, much worse than what happened in Donbass in 2014-2021, when 14,000 people died.

Code:

Mikhail Podolyak: "For me, it's important that we liberate the Kherson region,
and as harshly as possible for both collaborators and the Russian military.
We need the waters of the Sea of Azov.
I am in favor of forgetting the word "Russians" in the Kharkiv region.
I am in favor of forgetting the word "Russians" in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions
and that the criminal elements who call themselves the authorities should not be there physically.

Lyudmila Denisova

This is the same lady who claims that Russian soldiers rape Ukrainian women on Putin's orders. Do you unquestioningly believe her, even if her statements about child abuse contradict the Ukrainian Prosecutor General's Office?

Code:

Lyudmila Denisova: "The background is that they want to make it impossible for women to ever be able or want to have children again.
This is clear genocide. The soldiers rely on Putin's orders to destroy the entire country".
... Men and children are also raped. A mother was tied to a chair while her 11-year-old son was abused for 10 hours.
The 45-year-old man barely survived when he came out of his hiding place to fetch water.
They tortured and raped him.

One of those occupiers who raped Ukrainian women is in the photo. This is Bulat Lenarovych FASSAKHOV, born on November 20, 2001.

If he is guilty, he should be punished, better in Ukraine. There are hundreds of reports on the network about the atrocities of Russian soldiers. How many criminal cases have been opened and criminals named so far? None of the normal person will protect them. Ukrainian law enforcement agencies are required to publish complete information so that the thieves and rapists become known in Russia.
The Russian military also caught a Ukrainian rapist in Mariupol in April 2022. This is the deputy commander of the fire support company of the military unit A-2777, senior lieutenant Sergei Batynsky. He raped a woman at gunpoint and killed her husband.

Nonsense sounds like a correct description of what you're doing here. Again, going out of your way to find some minor, possibly out-of-context, tangential detail and ignoring actual facts.

You often quote American and English magazines, apparently considering them indisputable authoritative sources, to accuse Russia. Even the most famous newspaper is not a judicial department to accuse anyone, because there is such a thing as "presumption of innocence". Remember this definition? The United States is the main sponsor of Ukraine's military operations and is the most active on its side, and it is unlikely that there are large independent magazines anywhere in the world that are completely outside the control of governments. For prosecution, an international independent investigation must first be carried out. I and any adequate person will not defend criminals, no matter what country they belong to, if their guilt is proven in an independent court. Articles in an American, English, German and any other newspaper can serve as an additional source of information, but in no way can be evidence of a serious crime, especially now, during the open information war between the countries of the West and Russia.

Silver lining to dictator cracking down on dissent is the creative ways to protest.
Like switching price tags in the grocery store, or hacking the TV guide:

Just warn people that a woman who is accused of changing the price tag in a store now faces up to 10 years in a Russian prison.

Rumor has it Russia is facing the possibility of losing Crimea.
Russia Could Actually Lose Territory Amid Ukraine War Disaster
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-kyiv-crimea-putin-zelensky-donbas-1708149

This is an illusion, and a very dangerous one for all parties.
Ukraine will not be able to regain Crimea under any circumstances, since Russia's nuclear doctrine states that it will use nuclear weapons if the Kremlin decides that the existence of the state will be threatened.

Ukraine is preparing to extend the mobilization, the territorial defense is being sent to the front, criminals are being released from prisons so that they go to war. Whereas Russia has involved so far 15% of the total Russian army (150,000 out of 1 million). In Russia, you don't even need to declare mobilization, as there are unused contract soldiers, volunteers who fully support Putin's policies, and militant citizens with combat experience who want to go to the front.

- This conflict will drag on because the act of surrender and the surrender of several regions will mean a death sentence for Zelensky. If he admits defeat, he will be executed by his own nationalists, as was the case with one of the Ukrainian negotiators, therefore Zelensky puts conditions that are impossible for Russia to fulfill, he will negotiate only if Donbass, Crimea and the Kherson region are given to Ukraine.
- Russia will not give up these territories and will continue the offensive. If the Russian command feels that they will not be able to win this war, then they can use nuclear weapons, since for it the retreat and loss of territories is comparable to self-destruction. After admitting defeat, Russia will be in a much worse position than it is now, under > 10,000 sanctions. Even those who were neutral will turn away from her, and, most likely, a civil war will begin in the country, since the Russian population will not forgive such a result to their government. Therefore, the issue of victory is a matter of survival for Russia, it cannot simply turn back.
- The US views Ukraine as its own important strategic and economic asset. The US government has invested tens of billions of dollars in Ukraine, for years prepared Ukraine for resistance to Russia, pumped it up with weapons and most likely US doesn't want to give Russia the giant shale gas deposits in the Donbass.

Anyone in Ukraine providing material support to Russia should be killed.  They became combatants on Feb 24th, 2022.

Anyone in Ukraine with pro-Russian views will be considered an enemy. Most likely these people will be stripped
of their Ukrainian citizenship and will have to leave Ukraine.

[BADecker]

Anyone in Ukraine providing material support to Russia should be killed.  They became combatants on Feb 24th, 2022.

Anyone in Ukraine with pro-Russian views will be considered an enemy. Most likely these people will be stripped
of their Ukrainian citizenship and will have to leave Ukraine.

Thanks, af_newbie. I had always guessed you wanted to take freedom away from people - freedom of speech and freedom to live their lives. But now that you admit it, it will be so much easier to classify you as a Nazi.

[paxmao]

Your loaded question on "rusophobia" aside, "examples of" is not equal to a widespread adoption of nazi ideology. Nazi/fascist elements can be found in any society that has a certain degree of freedom of speech. Only a few countries - Russia is among them, Ukraine is not - have adopted fascism as a policy.

...
Source

Stop engaging in demagogy. The Ukrainian Azov Battalion was recognized as a neo-Nazi group by the US Congress. 40 congressmen wanted it to be also considered a terrorist entity, but this initiative didn't pass then.

Which means that 495 did not. You see 40 vs 495 - that is how credible your argument is. In my view, the Putin's army as of today is a terrorist organisation: invaded a pacific neighbour, destroyed schools, hospitals and a range of civilian buildings with people inside, tortures and kills to spread terror... that looks like terrorism to me.

The Nazi argument is irrelevant to the war, Putin could not care less about the ideology of the people that he kills and this discussion is only for the internal propaganda market and to cover up an unjustified war of invasion and aggression. Nobody outside Russia (probably not that many inside) thinks that this war has anything to do with Nazism (Putin himself is behaving much more like the Nazi Reich and his army like the Wehrmacht).

As said before, retaliation is a bitch. If Putin decides to treat POW as terrorist, the young and unprepared Russian soldiers sent to the front should not expect anything else. Under Putin, Russia is acting as a terrorist state and it is to be expected that is granted the same "courtesy" as he has with the adversary.

This if to you, young Russian men: If you do not stop this you will be sent to die for Putin. He is 70, he does not care at all if you live or die and the leaders that will send you to your death know that you are inexperienced and will be facing an experienced and well supplied army that will do anything to defend their land.

Do not die for Putin.

[af_newbie]

Anyone in Ukraine providing material support to Russia should be killed.  They became combatants on Feb 24th, 2022.

Anyone in Ukraine with pro-Russian views will be considered an enemy. Most likely these people will be stripped
of their Ukrainian citizenship and will have to leave Ukraine.

Thanks, af_newbie. I had always guessed you wanted to take freedom away from people - freedom of speech and freedom to live their lives. But now that you admit it, it will be so much easier to classify you as a Nazi.

Yes, I would take away your freedom to rape, murder, torture, and level cities.

You have some twisted moral standard. But I will never understand your Bronze Age morality, so I am not going to try.

I am not sure you can even comprehend what is happening. Russians are the terrorists here, always were, and I am afraid always will be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQe8GcrQy-U

The Nazis of the 1940s would be offended for guys like you calling people like me a Nazi.

[TwitchySeal]

Your loaded question on "rusophobia" aside, "examples of" is not equal to a widespread adoption of nazi ideology. Nazi/fascist elements can be found in any society that has a certain degree of freedom of speech. Only a few countries - Russia is among them, Ukraine is not - have adopted fascism as a policy.

Source

Stop engaging in demagogy. The Ukrainian Azov Battalion was recognized as a neo-Nazi group by the US Congress. 40 congressmen wanted it to be also considered a terrorist entity, but this initiative didn't pass then. Azov is officially part of the National Guard of Ukraine. What other countries have Nazis officially in the army, if you know of such examples?

Yoohoo, Putin isn't invading Ukraine because of Nazis.  The whole Nazi thing is just an excuse. 

Think about it, Putin is an Ethno Nationalist and a fascist.  Why would he have a problem with Nazis?  He doesn't.  He's just calling Ukrainians Nazis to get all the boomers and Russians that want it to be true so bad they are blinded to support him.

And for every Nazi in Ukraine there are hundreds, maybe thousands of Stalin supporters in Russia, which is just as bad. 

[paxmao]

Your loaded question on "rusophobia" aside, "examples of" is not equal to a widespread adoption of nazi ideology. Nazi/fascist elements can be found in any society that has a certain degree of freedom of speech. Only a few countries - Russia is among them, Ukraine is not - have adopted fascism as a policy.

...
Source

Stop engaging in demagogy. The Ukrainian Azov Battalion was recognized as a neo-Nazi group by the US Congress. 40 congressmen wanted it to be also considered a terrorist entity, but this initiative didn't pass then. Azov is officially part of the National Guard of Ukraine. What other countries have Nazis officially in the army, if you know of such examples?

Yoohoo, Putin isn't invading Ukraine because of Nazis.  The whole Nazi thing is just an excuse.  

Think about it, Putin is an Ethno Nationalist and a fascist.  Why would he have a problem with Nazis?  He doesn't.  He's just calling Ukrainians Nazis to get all the boomers and Russians that want it to be true so bad they are blinded to support him.

And for every Nazi in Ukraine there are hundreds, maybe thousands of Stalin supporters in Russia, which is just as bad.  

On top of it, on the ridiculous attempt to make it look like if US were giving any credibility to the "nazi-terrorist" arguments, this is how reality looks like:

https://youtu.be/6JUOIJRpffs?t=14 - Senate approved 40 Billion USD in help to Ukraine.

That is the US view on the matter, putting the dollar where their mouth and the public opinion are.

Edited: I just noticed on the strategic map that if either Kherson or Melitopol fall Crimea may simply not have any water. The supply would be cut. Some maps even give a larger advantage to Ukraine in the South, calling contested some of the areas that Russia is taking for granted.

[TwitchySeal]

Rumor has it Russia is facing the possibility of losing Crimea.
Russia Could Actually Lose Territory Amid Ukraine War Disaster
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-kyiv-crimea-putin-zelensky-donbas-1708149

This is an illusion, and a very dangerous one for all parties.
Ukraine will not be able to regain Crimea under any circumstances, since Russia's nuclear doctrine states that it will use nuclear weapons if the Kremlin decides that the existence of the state will be threatened.

A few months ago we all thought we'd be waking up to news of Zelensky dead and Kyiev occupied by Russian forces.  At the time, Russian failure and retreat within a few weeks seemed much less likely than Ukraine ultimately regaining some of it's land that was seized in 2014 today.

[suchmoon]

~

All of the fallacies aside, locals who join the enemy forces will be killed just like the enemy. Attempts to twist this into some unfair hostility should be addressed to Putin - he started the invasion and all of this mess.

If he is guilty, he should be punished, better in Ukraine. There are hundreds of reports on the network about the atrocities of Russian soldiers. How many criminal cases have been opened and criminals named so far? None of the normal person will protect them. Ukrainian law enforcement agencies are required to publish complete information so that the thieves and rapists become known in Russia.

And they do that. But Russia isn't doing shit about it, and most likely Ukrainian law enforcement is not going to be able to arrest them. So what exactly is your problem here?

You often quote American and English magazines, apparently considering them indisputable authoritative sources, to accuse Russia. Even the most famous newspaper is not a judicial department to accuse anyone, because there is such a thing as "presumption of innocence". Remember this definition? The United States is the main sponsor of Ukraine's military operations and is the most active on its side, and it is unlikely that there are large independent magazines anywhere in the world that are completely outside the control of governments. For prosecution, an international independent investigation must first be carried out. I and any adequate person will not defend criminals, no matter what country they belong to, if their guilt is proven in an independent court. Articles in an American, English, German and any other newspaper can serve as an additional source of information, but in no way can be evidence of a serious crime, especially now, during the open information war between the countries of the West and Russia.

This is not a court of law. We share information from various sources and I put a lot of effort into reading Russian language sources so your allegation about "American and English" is ludicrously off base. I post links to English versions whenever possible because this is an English board, but most of the information originates in Russian. I try to add warnings if I post e.g. rumors from telegram, otherwise if it's a reputable source then it's up to the reader to decide what to make of it. Again, I don't understand what your problem is here. If Russian military isn't looking its best in these news reports, it's most likely because it's a looting gang of criminals and not because the reports are wrong.

It would be quite absurd to use heavily-censored and mostly Kremlin-controlled media in Russia as sources for anything other than a laugh.

Just warn people that a woman who is accused of changing the price tag in a store now faces up to 10 years in a Russian prison.

Totally not a fascist regime at all.

[Branko]

~

All of the fallacies aside, locals who join the enemy forces will be killed just like the enemy. Attempts to twist this into some unfair hostility should be addressed to Putin - he started the invasion and all of this mess.

If he is guilty, he should be punished, better in Ukraine. There are hundreds of reports on the network about the atrocities of Russian soldiers. How many criminal cases have been opened and criminals named so far? None of the normal person will protect them. Ukrainian law enforcement agencies are required to publish complete information so that the thieves and rapists become known in Russia.

And they do that. But Russia isn't doing shit about it, and most likely Ukrainian law enforcement is not going to be able to arrest them. So what exactly is your problem here?

You often quote American and English magazines, apparently considering them indisputable authoritative sources, to accuse Russia. Even the most famous newspaper is not a judicial department to accuse anyone, because there is such a thing as "presumption of innocence". Remember this definition? The United States is the main sponsor of Ukraine's military operations and is the most active on its side, and it is unlikely that there are large independent magazines anywhere in the world that are completely outside the control of governments. For prosecution, an international independent investigation must first be carried out. I and any adequate person will not defend criminals, no matter what country they belong to, if their guilt is proven in an independent court. Articles in an American, English, German and any other newspaper can serve as an additional source of information, but in no way can be evidence of a serious crime, especially now, during the open information war between the countries of the West and Russia.

This is not a court of law. We share information from various sources and I put a lot of effort into reading Russian language sources so your allegation about "American and English" is ludicrously off base. I post links to English versions whenever possible because this is an English board, but most of the information originates in Russian. I try to add warnings if I post e.g. rumors from telegram, otherwise if it's a reputable source then it's up to the reader to decide what to make of it. Again, I don't understand what your problem is here. If Russian military isn't looking its best in these news reports, it's most likely because it's a looting gang of criminals and not because the reports are wrong.

It would be quite absurd to use heavily-censored and mostly Kremlin-controlled media in Russia as sources for anything other than a laugh.

Just warn people that a woman who is accused of changing the price tag in a store now faces up to 10 years in a Russian prison.

Totally not a fascist regime at all.

But you just said you would kill Ukrainians doing the same

[be.open]

This if to you, young Russian men: If you do not stop this you will be sent to die for Putin. He is 70, he does not care at all if you live or die and the leaders that will send you to your death know that you are inexperienced and will be facing an experienced and well supplied army that will do anything to defend their land.

Do not die for Putin.

This is for you, young and not very Ukrainian men: little depends on you - you will be sent to die for Zelensky. The people of Ukraine chose him as their president because he promised peace in Ukraine. He lied and now you are sent like cannon fodder to die in the Donbas, fighting with machine guns and hand grenade launchers against the elite units of the Russian army, with rockets, artillery, aircraft and tanks.

Don't die for Zelensky.

[Tash]

So the Azov suckes got done again.
Putins daugther (Katerina Tikhonova) boyfriends name is Zelensky.

[DaRude]

It scares me that you reached your pinnacle of cringe right on this topic. Person who yells WHATABOUTISM when i even slightly hint at a comparison (not a main rebuttal), blatantly doesn't answer a single direct question and just start discussing other people   surely the irony cannot be lost here

[...]

Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.

No, it's still you bringing in unrelated shit into this thread.

You brought up Bandera as one of the reasons Ukraine needs denazification (correct me if I'm wrong). I responded as to why that's absurd. If you can't make a coherent argument that's not really my fault.

The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths...the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm

[...]

Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street? this is beyond atrocious!

Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?

But still Bandera streets in Ukraine - bad, Ukraine needs denazifying.

Stalin streets in Russia - nah, I just don't condone it.

Sometimes I feel like your reading comprehension is on a 6th grade level. Let's try once again, I brought up Bandera because I came across CIA's operation Red Sox where in 1949 CIA also tried to back Ukrainian independence by sponsoring Bandera, and CIA operations chief flat out admits that they were sponsoring a group directly linked to Nazi atrocities, even worse they did the Nazi's 'dirty work' (Bandera). Everyone seem to agree that this guy massacred/tortured/rapped lots of people, yet Ukrainians felt that he was the most deserving from all Ukrainians to name a street in his honor in the capital of Kyiv in 2016. Now this is where i get confused, you claim that there are only few Nazis in Ukraine but no more than in any other capital ok, so if you'd say that some idiot somehow managed to find some loophole and rename a street in the city after the murderer but once people found out there were protests etc but for one reason or the other they cannot change it to someone more deserving, i'd understand. But you don't say that at all, what scares me is your allusions, changing topic to other people, and reluctance to condemn Bandera makes it sound like that's wasn't an error at all, and most people do in fact support a guy who massacred innocent people. Am i mistaken? Is Bandera a hero to you?

Bandera is a Ukrainian national hero who fought for Ukrainian independence. He was against the Soviet invasion of Ukraine, a staunch anti-
communist, nationalist but not a Nazi.  He collaborated with the Germans, but later was arrested by them and imprisoned in the concentration
camp.

He was assassinated by the Russians.

You support Russians who committed and are committing genocides and war crimes. Who executed people in Katyn?
Santa Claus? Who killed innocent people across Europe during Soviet times?

Russians did. So shut the fuck up about your support for these animals.

Who killed innocent people across Europe? Easy, your hero Bandera. Here are some highlights:

Stepan Bandera (1909-1959), head of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists that formed in 1929 as an amalgamation of movements including the Union of Ukrainian Fascists.[2][3] The union, known as OUN-B, had been engaged in various atrocities, including murder of civilians, most of whom were ethnic Poles.
...
These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
..
The OUN-B (Banderites) formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans
...
To ensure maximum impact of the systematic ethnic cleansing campaign in the contested territory, OUN-B faction spread antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians.
...
Bandera wrote a manifesto entitled "Ukrainian National Revolution" that called for the annihilation of so-called ethnic enemies.
...
included specific instructions about the killing of Jews, Poles, and Ukrainian opponents of fascism.
...
OUN leaflets...read: "Exterminate the Poles, Jews and communists without mercy. Do not pity the enemies of the Ukrainian National Revolution!
...
The first pogrom took the lives of at least 4,000 Jews... and the "Petlura Days" massacre of more than 2,000 Polish Jews by the Ukrainian militants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banderites

Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists[1][2] (OUN), an organization responsible for ethnic cleansings also implicated in collaboration with Nazi Germany.
...
largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[28] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine.
...
his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera




Guy who was never even a citizen of Ukraine, kills 10k-15k Ukrainians (ignoring thousands of other women and children) that's your hero? Just cause he also killed Soviet people?

To summarize:

• 1929   Bandera joined OUN
• 1931   becoming the chief propaganda officer of the OUN
• June 1933   became head of the OUN national executive
• June 1934   assassination of Poland's Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki. convicted of terrorism and sentenced to death but the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment in Poland
• 1 Sep 1939   Germany Invades Poland.
• Sept 1939   Bandera is freed from prison, moves to German-occupied zone of Poland offers his services to Nazi Germany in exchange for ongoing financial and logistical support.
• Sept 1939   recruited before Operation Barbarossa during World War II into the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr for espionage, counter-espionage and sabotage.
• 22 June 1941   Nazi Germany invades Soviet Union
• 5 July 1941   Bandera is arrested in Germany
• 14 July 1941   After 9 days released from custody was required to stay in Berlin
• Jan 1942   Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen concentration camp's special barrack for high-profile political prisoners Zellenbau but kept in special, comparatively comfortable detention
• Sep 1944   with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released and settles with his family in West Germany
• 1946   OUN-B was re-formed in under the sponsorship of MI6. Organization had been receiving some support from MI6 since the 1930s. One faction of Bandera's organization...became more closely associated with the CIA
•    Some American intelligence reported that he even was guarded by former SS men.
•    Bandera reached an agreement with the BND, offering them his service, despite CIA warning the West Germans against cooperating with him.
• 1959   Bandera was assassinated in 1959 by KGB agents in Munich.
• 22 January 2010   President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded Bandera the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine.

Let's reiterate where everyone stands. On one side we have:
Russia
Israel
Germany - condemning crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians
Poland - declared Volhynia a genocide, and doesn't even allow cars with OUN (red black flag) stickers to enter Poland
EU - Deeply deplores ... to award Stepan Bandera, a leader of the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) which collaborated with Nazi Germany, the title of ‘National Hero of Ukraine’; hopes, in this regard, that the new Ukrainian leadership will reconsider such decisions and will maintain its commitment to European values;

And on another side we have:
Ukrainian neo-Nazis
and YOU

Right, so we all got your stance on Bandera. A follow up question, how do you feel about Hitler, he also fought against Soviets, so is he a hero to you too?

[paxmao]

...

Just warn people that a woman who is accused of changing the price tag in a store now faces up to 10 years in a Russian prison.

Totally not a fascist regime at all.

But you just said you would kill Ukrainians doing the same

No, he said that Ukrainians fighting for Russia would be considered enemy and be killed. Ukraine is at war with Russia, so Ukrainian nationals fighting under Russian orders are enemy combatants at best or, in my view, traitors in a legal sense, like in most countries in the world when you fight against your own people.

[paxmao]

This if to you, young Russian men: If you do not stop this you will be sent to die for Putin. He is 70, he does not care at all if you live or die and the leaders that will send you to your death know that you are inexperienced and will be facing an experienced and well supplied army that will do anything to defend their land.

Do not die for Putin.

This is for you, young and not very Ukrainian men: little depends on you - you will be sent to die for Zelensky. The people of Ukraine chose him as their president because he promised peace in Ukraine. He lied and now you are sent like cannon fodder to die in the Donbas, fighting with machine guns and hand grenade launchers against the elite units of the Russian army, with rockets, artillery, aircraft and tanks.

Don't die for Zelensky.

This is for machine guns and hand grenades, sure

The US just deepened its commitment to Ukraine by $40 billion
The Senate approved a massive military, economic, and humanitarian aid package.

Sorry to tell you, but this knife does not cut both ways. Ukrainians are fighting for their right to not be governed from Moscow and for a future among the most developed nations in the world, Russian soldiers are dying for nothing - if not for the delusional fantasies of a 70 year old guy that just cannot tell reality from fiction.

Do not die for Putin.

Russian mothers, did you raise your sons and daughters to be sent to kill, rape and murder and then die a horrible death away from home?

[be.open]

This if to you, young Russian men: If you do not stop this you will be sent to die for Putin. He is 70, he does not care at all if you live or die and the leaders that will send you to your death know that you are inexperienced and will be facing an experienced and well supplied army that will do anything to defend their land.

Do not die for Putin.

This is for you, young and not very Ukrainian men: little depends on you - you will be sent to die for Zelensky. The people of Ukraine chose him as their president because he promised peace in Ukraine. He lied and now you are sent like cannon fodder to die in the Donbas, fighting with machine guns and hand grenade launchers against the elite units of the Russian army, with rockets, artillery, aircraft and tanks.

Don't die for Zelensky.

This is for machine guns and hand grenades, sure

The US just deepened its commitment to Ukraine by $40 billion
The Senate approved a massive military, economic, and humanitarian aid package.

Sorry to tell you, but this knife does not cut both ways. Ukrainians are fighting for their right to not be governed from Moscow and for a future among the most developed nations in the world, Russian soldiers are dying for nothing - if not for the delusional fantasies of a 70 year old guy that just cannot tell reality from fiction.

Do not die for Putin.

Russian mothers, did you raise your sons and daughters to be sent to kill, rape and murder and then die a horrible death away from home?

Don't be so nervous. You might think the Russians are driven with sticks to participate in this operation. There is no mobilization in Russia, people for the most part live a normal life. Professionals seem to be doing quite well, it's their job and it pays well. From the Russian side, according to various estimates, 130-190 thousand people are participating in the operation, plus 30-40 thousand militiamen of the Donbass people's militia. From Ukraine (according to Zelensky's recent statement), 700,000 people have been mobilized under arms. It seems that the Russians are not particularly embarrassed by the multiple superiority of the enemy in manpower.

As far as I understand, one of the side objectives of this operation is to demonstrate the power of Russian weapons and the Russian method of warfare in front of NATO weapons and combat standards. The demonstration is very impressive.

[af_newbie]

It scares me that you reached your pinnacle of cringe right on this topic. Person who yells WHATABOUTISM when i even slightly hint at a comparison (not a main rebuttal), blatantly doesn't answer a single direct question and just start discussing other people   surely the irony cannot be lost here

[...]

Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.

No, it's still you bringing in unrelated shit into this thread.

You brought up Bandera as one of the reasons Ukraine needs denazification (correct me if I'm wrong). I responded as to why that's absurd. If you can't make a coherent argument that's not really my fault.

The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths...the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm

[...]

Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street? this is beyond atrocious!

Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?

But still Bandera streets in Ukraine - bad, Ukraine needs denazifying.

Stalin streets in Russia - nah, I just don't condone it.

Sometimes I feel like your reading comprehension is on a 6th grade level. Let's try once again, I brought up Bandera because I came across CIA's operation Red Sox where in 1949 CIA also tried to back Ukrainian independence by sponsoring Bandera, and CIA operations chief flat out admits that they were sponsoring a group directly linked to Nazi atrocities, even worse they did the Nazi's 'dirty work' (Bandera). Everyone seem to agree that this guy massacred/tortured/rapped lots of people, yet Ukrainians felt that he was the most deserving from all Ukrainians to name a street in his honor in the capital of Kyiv in 2016. Now this is where i get confused, you claim that there are only few Nazis in Ukraine but no more than in any other capital ok, so if you'd say that some idiot somehow managed to find some loophole and rename a street in the city after the murderer but once people found out there were protests etc but for one reason or the other they cannot change it to someone more deserving, i'd understand. But you don't say that at all, what scares me is your allusions, changing topic to other people, and reluctance to condemn Bandera makes it sound like that's wasn't an error at all, and most people do in fact support a guy who massacred innocent people. Am i mistaken? Is Bandera a hero to you?

Bandera is a Ukrainian national hero who fought for Ukrainian independence. He was against the Soviet invasion of Ukraine, a staunch anti-
communist, nationalist but not a Nazi.  He collaborated with the Germans, but later was arrested by them and imprisoned in the concentration
camp.

He was assassinated by the Russians.

You support Russians who committed and are committing genocides and war crimes. Who executed people in Katyn?
Santa Claus? Who killed innocent people across Europe during Soviet times?

Russians did. So shut the fuck up about your support for these animals.

Who killed innocent people across Europe? Easy, your hero Bandera. Here are some highlights:

Stepan Bandera (1909-1959), head of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists that formed in 1929 as an amalgamation of movements including the Union of Ukrainian Fascists.[2][3] The union, known as OUN-B, had been engaged in various atrocities, including murder of civilians, most of whom were ethnic Poles.
...
These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
..
The OUN-B (Banderites) formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans
...
To ensure maximum impact of the systematic ethnic cleansing campaign in the contested territory, OUN-B faction spread antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians.
...
Bandera wrote a manifesto entitled "Ukrainian National Revolution" that called for the annihilation of so-called ethnic enemies.
...
included specific instructions about the killing of Jews, Poles, and Ukrainian opponents of fascism.
...
OUN leaflets...read: "Exterminate the Poles, Jews and communists without mercy. Do not pity the enemies of the Ukrainian National Revolution!
...
The first pogrom took the lives of at least 4,000 Jews... and the "Petlura Days" massacre of more than 2,000 Polish Jews by the Ukrainian militants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banderites

Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists[1][2] (OUN), an organization responsible for ethnic cleansings also implicated in collaboration with Nazi Germany.
...
largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[28] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine.
...
his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera




Guy who was never even a citizen of Ukraine, kills 10k-15k Ukrainians (ignoring thousands of other women and children) that's your hero? Just cause he also killed Soviet people?

To summarize:

• 1929   Bandera joined OUN
• 1931   becoming the chief propaganda officer of the OUN
• June 1933   became head of the OUN national executive
• June 1934   assassination of Poland's Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki. convicted of terrorism and sentenced to death but the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment in Poland
• 1 Sep 1939   Germany Invades Poland.
• Sept 1934   Bandera is freed from prison, moves to German-occupied zone of Poland offers his services to Nazi Germany in exchange for ongoing financial and logistical support.
• Sept 1934   recruited before Operation Barbarossa during World War II into the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr for espionage, counter-espionage and sabotage.
• 22 June 1941   Nazi Germany invades Soviet Union
• 5 July 1941   Bandera is arrested in Germany
• 14 July 1941   After 9 days released from custody was required to stay in Berlin
• Jan 1942   Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen concentration camp's special barrack for high-profile political prisoners Zellenbau but kept in special, comparatively comfortable detention
• Sep 1944   with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released and settles with his family in West Germany
• 1946   OUN-B was re-formed in under the sponsorship of MI6. Organization had been receiving some support from MI6 since the 1930s. One faction of Bandera's organization...became more closely associated with the CIA
•    Some American intelligence reported that he even was guarded by former SS men.
•    Bandera reached an agreement with the BND, offering them his service, despite CIA warning the West Germans against cooperating with him.
• 1959   Bandera was assassinated in 1959 by KGB agents in Munich.
• 22 January 2010   President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded Bandera the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine.

Let's reiterate where everyone stands. On one side we have:
Russia
Israel
Germany - condemning crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians
Poland - declared Volhynia a genocide, and doesn't even allow cars with OUN (red black flag) stickers to enter Poland
EU - Deeply deplores ... to award Stepan Bandera, a leader of the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) which collaborated with Nazi Germany, the title of ‘National Hero of Ukraine’; hopes, in this regard, that the new Ukrainian leadership will reconsider such decisions and will maintain its commitment to European values;

And on another side we have:
Ukrainian neo-Nazis
and YOU

Right, so we all got your stance on Bandera. A follow up question, how do you feel about Hitler, he also fought against Soviets, so is he a hero to you too?

You dipshit.  I am not Ukrainian. Read my post.
Bandera is a Ukrainian hero and always will be because he fought for the independence of Ukraine.

What Russia did to all of Eastern Europe/Caucasus/Siberia over the years is not forgivable. They are animals.

The current Z-ombification of Russia should be of concern to any sane human being.

The Z Russians today are ready to commit genocides without thinking twice about it.

All this de-Nazification nonsense is for idiots like you. It is to turn away your attention from the fact that Z Russians are NaZZZis.

Ukrainians are killing Russians because the Russians invaded their country.  

Russians are killing Ukrainians because they are Ukrainians.

BTW, can you list the mass killings of civilians committed by Ukrainians since 1991? Who is the Nazi now? LOL.

[suchmoon]

But you just said you would kill Ukrainians doing the same

Quote me saying that I would kill anyone, let alone kill Ukrainians for messing with price tags.

• 1 Sep 1939   Germany Invades Poland.
• Sept 1934   Bandera is freed from prison, moves to German-occupied zone of Poland offers his services to Nazi Germany in exchange for ongoing financial and logistical support.
• Sept 1934   recruited before Operation Barbarossa during World War II into the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr for espionage, counter-espionage and

A bit of time travel. And then teleportation?

killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia

Jan 1942   Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen

Sep 1944   with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released

You know what they say about extraordinary claims.

Perhaps you should have settled on "controversial" instead of trying to prove Putin's fantasies with fake information and lots of fallacies.