Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[DaRude]

In Gaza... you mean Israel attacking Gaza is the same as Ruzzia invading Ukraine... sorry I am unable to even follow your logic.

The reason is again your mindset. You believe in empires, blocks, influence, the supremacy of Ruzzians (or at least some of them), ... You have a hammer and everything looks like a nail to you.

Nope, you are actually trying to break the Ukranian law. I already quoted and described he relevant articles, why are those in Ukranian constitution and how they have the effect of not allowing elections during war.

You are absolutely obsesed with elections in Ukraine assuming that Ruzzian influence and bribes would somehow hand the victory that Putin is unable to get in the fields. Do not take as a certainty at all.

It's not the same but similar. Just highlighting the double standards, we have two military conflicts in the world, in one Ukrainians are encouraged to relocate and are always free to leave yet millions choose to take the chance of surviving through changing front lines to become full citizens of Russia with full rights. Despite being larger in scale, more weapons deployed more bombs/missiles launched, more cities and land taken, and running longer collateral damage in Ukraine is minimal compared to military deaths and lower in absolutes than in Gaza. In another Gazans are starved, have no rights, international humanitarian organizations are prohibited from accessing or helping them and collateral damage is over 50% and higher than in Ukraine even in absolutes. Despite all international humanitarian organizations criticize Israel overwhelmingly more that Russia, the "west" condemns Russia but supports and sends more weapons to Israel. If this is not realpolitiks and about influences i don't know what is.

Your quoted articles force reader to take a huge leaps on interpretation of constitution vs what is actually written. To believe what you claim one has to make two ridiculous assumptions, first is that of omission, that despite specifically saying that elections for parliament are suspended during martial's law, constitution just forgot to say the same about the president oops? And second that the fundamental right of self determination falls under sweeping "some" rights clause (if that's the case then what rights don't qualify under "some rights")  

Not obsessed at all, just once again underlying the hypocrisy and selective application of the rule of law.
To my friends, anything; to my enemies, the law

[farsky]

again Gaza...
I regret reading this, but now I can't keep quiet

in one Ukrainians are encouraged to relocate

What nonsense, what kind of "encouragement for resettlement" are we talking about?

millions choose to take the chance of surviving through changing front lines

millions? do you have exact data?
it seems you have read too much propaganda of Putin's regime.
In fact, millions of Ukrainians are fleeing to Europe from the war.
only those who truly believe that Russia will bring order, peace and happiness remain... such are a minority.

to become full citizens of Russia with full rights

naive nonsense. besides, it is not true.
Ukrainians who remained on the Russian side are at least not considered full citizens. In the past (at the beginning of the war) Russia carried out mobilization (on the captured territory) among those who decided to become "full citizens". Those who are too young are prepared for service in the Russian army, most likely they will be sent to war.
Besides, the captured lands are in ruins, there is no water or electricity.

collateral damage in Ukraine is minimal compared to military deaths and lower in absolutes than in Gaza.

This is already a blatant lie. In Ukraine, dozens of small towns have been destroyed, together exceeding the area of Gaza.
In Gaza, about 185 square kilometers are destroyed. In Ukraine (counting only the immediate combat zone), the scale of destruction is about 300 square kilometers — and that’s just medium-sized towns.
On top of that, there are countless villages. And there is also destruction in cities far from the front lines that are still hit by Russian missiles.
In total, this adds up to about 900 square kilometers — 2.4 times larger than Gaza.
There is not a single city in Ukraine that has not been shelled. This is not a border skirmish, it is a full-scale war.

Nature and open land have also been devastated: fields, forests, shelterbelts, roads, bridges, and dams destroyed.

Your ignorance is catastrophic. I strongly advise you not to get into topics you clearly don’t understand.

[DaRude]

The August 2008 Russo-Georgian War, also known as the Russian invasion of Georgia,[note 3] was a war waged against Georgia by the Russian Federation and the Russian-backed separatist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The fighting took place in the strategically important South Caucasus region. It is regarded as the first European war of the 21st century.[31]

That conflict started when Georgia attacked South Ossetia no matter what wikipedia says. The Russians put an end to it in 5 days and no matter what any other idiot source blabbers on about the region there is only interest due to control of part of an energy pipeline and transit region as was the war in Syria when assad refused to do business on the Qatar transit line on account of the damage to russian dominance of energy supplies it would cause as is the same with Ukraine along with another few reasons.These wars are all about business interests however maybe that is one of the most clever pretexts presented by powers who operate on both sides of the table to bring about something that is not even remotely presented and this pretext is the most logical for the sheople. All the talk about territorial integrity is laughable and can only be easily digested by half wits. Anyone with a few working brain cells knows russia or ruzzia could lay waste to ukraine in a couple of days if it needed to even if it wasn't wished for and the powers that be even as fractured as they are will continue to bring about whatever it is they have planned for everyone on a global scale. There are serious games at play here that we have absolutely no idea of the outcome but these current wars are not even the spark on that fuse. They are simply a way of organising things in the future by the old feudal ways with good old common people as cannon fodder ...much like a lethal game of chess but only lethal for the players thrown onto the board.

You don't have the full data. I'll tell you.
This conflict began with Russia's support for Ossetian separatists.
In the early 1990s, South Ossetia proclaimed their independence, which was never recognized by the international community (except for Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Syria, and Nauru).

Georgia believes that South Ossetia is its ancestral land, and Ossetians are just another ethnic group. Georgia sees South Ossetia's desire to secede as the result of Russian policy and incitement. Russian provided financial and military support to Ossetian separatists.

In both 2008 in Georgia, and in 2014 and 2022 in Ukraine, Russian propaganda used the narrative that Georgia and Ukraine were committing "genocide" against the Russian-speaking population, which required a "humanitarian intervention." International investigations did not confirm these accusations.

Therefore, claiming that "Georgia attacked Ossetia" is equivalent to claiming that "Ukraine attacked the DPR and LPR."

(It's important to add that Ossetians are a distinct people who are not part of the Georgian ethnic group. It's a pity that they attempted to realize their right to self-determination through armed conflict with Russia's help, just like Abkhazia. Now, having gained independence from Georgia, both Ossetia and Abkhazia are, in effect, under the control of Russia.)

PS. Please research such things a little better. Spreading incorrect information harms the community.

How nice to totally ignore the Bucharest NATO summit, where in April 2008 USA wanted Georgia to join NATO, which would've been impossible with disputed territories in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Then, just 4 months later Georgia attacks sends it's army to take over South Ossetia by force, is all just a total coincidence, not even worth mentioning for "full data", right? 

[WillyAp]

How nice to totally ignore the Bucharest NATO summit, where in April 2008 USA wanted Georgia to join NATO, which would've been impossible with disputed territories in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Then, just 4 months later Georgia attacks sends it's army to take over South Ossetia by force, is all just a total coincidence, not even worth mentioning for "full data", right? 

2 questions 4 U
A sovereign country wishes to join the Nato is a reason you justify occupation?
Why did Russia not enter Finland?

[DaRude]

again Gaza...
I regret reading this, but now I can't keep quiet

in one Ukrainians are encouraged to relocate

What nonsense, what kind of "encouragement for resettlement" are we talking about?

Are you not aware that Ukrainians issue evacuation orders for cities coming on the front lines, they even try to force people to evacuate but millions of civilians still stay and then become Russian citizens.

Mandatory evacuation of families with children begins in Donetsk Oblast

millions choose to take the chance of surviving through changing front lines

millions? do you have exact data?
it seems you have read too much propaganda of Putin's regime.
In fact, millions of Ukrainians are fleeing to Europe from the war.
only those who truly believe that Russia will bring order, peace and happiness remain... such are a minority.

to become full citizens of Russia with full rights

naive nonsense. besides, it is not true.
Ukrainians who remained on the Russian side are at least not considered full citizens. In the past (at the beginning of the war) Russia carried out mobilization (on the captured territory) among those who decided to become "full citizens". Those who are too young are prepared for service in the Russian army, most likely they will be sent to war.
Besides, the captured lands are in ruins, there is no water or electricity.

Obviously there is no exact data, Ukraine wouldn't release it. A minority? Please cite your claims. How many did you think there were?

As of 2024, Russia occupies almost 20% of Ukraine and about 3 to 3.5 million Ukrainians are estimated to be living under occupation;

What makes them not "full citizens" are you claiming that "full" Russian citizens were not mobilized as well? Citation or just spreading propaganda?

Cite something to back up your claim that there is "no water or electricity" in Crimea, Mariupol, Melitopol in comparison to Ukrainian cities, or stop spreading propaganda.

collateral damage in Ukraine is minimal compared to military deaths and lower in absolutes than in Gaza.

This is already a blatant lie. In Ukraine, dozens of small towns have been destroyed, together exceeding the area of Gaza.
In Gaza, about 185 square kilometers are destroyed. In Ukraine (counting only the immediate combat zone), the scale of destruction is about 300 square kilometers — and that’s just medium-sized towns.
On top of that, there are countless villages. And there is also destruction in cities far from the front lines that are still hit by Russian missiles.
In total, this adds up to about 900 square kilometers — 2.4 times larger than Gaza.
There is not a single city in Ukraine that has not been shelled. This is not a border skirmish, it is a full-scale war.

Nature and open land have also been devastated: fields, forests, shelterbelts, roads, bridges, and dams destroyed.

Your ignorance is catastrophic. I strongly advise you not to get into topics you clearly don’t understand.

Thank you for proving my point, despite such huge land destruction, somehow Russia amazingly still managed to keep civilian casualties to a minimum.

Ukraine-HRMMU has documented the deaths of at least 13,883 civilians, including 726 children

Gaza-24,818 men 9,126 women 17,121 children and 4,137 elderly

Only 23 times as many children died in Gaza by western weapons as did in Ukraine. But hey lets send more money and weapons to Israel and create more content how Russia is targeting civilians, maybe they can get the killed children ration up to 25x

Edit: How much does the "west" benefited from arms sales to Israel? And after that you believe it has any moral stance to lecture Russia?

How nice to totally ignore the Bucharest NATO summit, where in April 2008 USA wanted Georgia to join NATO, which would've been impossible with disputed territories in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Then, just 4 months later Georgia attacks sends it's army to take over South Ossetia by force, is all just a total coincidence, not even worth mentioning for "full data", right?  

2 questions 4 U
A sovereign country wishes to join the Nato is a reason you justify occupation?
Why did Russia not enter Finland?

We've been over this, there are double standards at play, look at excessive deaths in Cuba since it wanted to cooperate with Soviet Union. How many do you reckon would die if Mexico decided to join a military alliance with China because it was profitable for them? What happened in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq?  So short answer hypocrisy and realpolitiks, and it's not Russia who made the mockery of the international law, unfortunately it just follows. Can't run by the rules if the person ahead of you constantly breaking rules and no one cares.

[YADAYADA]

You don't have the full data. I'll tell you.
This conflict began with Russia's support for Ossetian separatists.
In the early 1990s, South Ossetia proclaimed their independence, which was never recognized by the international community (except for Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Syria, and Nauru).

Georgia believes that South Ossetia is its ancestral land, and Ossetians are just another ethnic group. Georgia sees South Ossetia's desire to secede as the result of Russian policy and incitement. Russian provided financial and military support to Ossetian separatists.

In both 2008 in Georgia, and in 2014 and 2022 in Ukraine, Russian propaganda used the narrative that Georgia and Ukraine were committing "genocide" against the Russian-speaking population, which required a "humanitarian intervention." International investigations did not confirm these accusations.

Therefore, claiming that "Georgia attacked Ossetia" is equivalent to claiming that "Ukraine attacked the DPR and LPR."

(It's important to add that Ossetians are a distinct people who are not part of the Georgian ethnic group. It's a pity that they attempted to realize their right to self-determination through armed conflict with Russia's help, just like Abkhazia. Now, having gained independence from Georgia, both Ossetia and Abkhazia are, in effect, under the control of Russia.)

PS. Please research such things a little better. Spreading incorrect information harms the community.

I hate getting into loads of back n forth that requires time and walls of text so literally breaking it down to the most basic point that would give weight to the statement I made earlier skipping the complexities of when South Ossetia was an autonomous oblast within the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic back in the soviet era. Anyway I am not talking about South Ossetia’s right to self-determination or the right to secession.I am making only a specific point based on legal analysis where back in 1992 after the previous conflict the Russian intervention allowed South Ossetia to become a de-facto independent republic but yes it is still seen as part of Georgia by the "international community".

I am referring to the status quo that was in place back in 2008 to stop an escalation which was broken by Georgian forces and as the Russians took responsibility for "peacekeeping enforcement" they had no choice but to enforce this and yeah anyone with an IQ over 80 is aware of Russian MO with regards using separatists to lay claim to territory but Georgia violated international law when it used force against Russian "peacekeeping" troops stationed in Tskhinvali, and from that moment, Russia’s army had grounds to use force in the "peacekeepers" defense. This is FACT based on international law whether one likes it or not without any form of bias. I understand your bias towards your former homeland but in court emotions and bias along with opinions are worthless and only facts are admissable.

I support neither Russia, Georgia or south ossetians and am just the devils advocate here. I am not part of any "community" or "company" and just a casual observer stating certain facts.

I am not misinformed nor a misinformer. Georgia could have been a whole lot more clever in how it dealt with the situation and only played right into the hands of Russia giving them the pretext they were waiting for to use military force albeit outrageous disproportionate force. All is fair in love and war....

Rusia does NOT have this pretext in Ukraines case because they were not the guarantors of the separatists in the region on paper signed and sealed that would have given them said pretext. I am speaking from a legal point of view no matter if its fair or unfair and I am on point on this "specific" matter and have zero interest in the politics or emotions behind the beligerence. Unfortunately we will have to agree to disagree on this "specific" point but I am pretty clued in like every dog on the street as to how Russia uses the whole separatist stage play in order to bring regions under its sphere of influence.

[DaRude]

You don't have the full data. I'll tell you.
This conflict began with Russia's support for Ossetian separatists.
In the early 1990s, South Ossetia proclaimed their independence, which was never recognized by the international community (except for Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Syria, and Nauru).

Georgia believes that South Ossetia is its ancestral land, and Ossetians are just another ethnic group. Georgia sees South Ossetia's desire to secede as the result of Russian policy and incitement. Russian provided financial and military support to Ossetian separatists.

In both 2008 in Georgia, and in 2014 and 2022 in Ukraine, Russian propaganda used the narrative that Georgia and Ukraine were committing "genocide" against the Russian-speaking population, which required a "humanitarian intervention." International investigations did not confirm these accusations.

Therefore, claiming that "Georgia attacked Ossetia" is equivalent to claiming that "Ukraine attacked the DPR and LPR."

(It's important to add that Ossetians are a distinct people who are not part of the Georgian ethnic group. It's a pity that they attempted to realize their right to self-determination through armed conflict with Russia's help, just like Abkhazia. Now, having gained independence from Georgia, both Ossetia and Abkhazia are, in effect, under the control of Russia.)

PS. Please research such things a little better. Spreading incorrect information harms the community.

I hate getting into loads of back n forth that requires time and walls of text so literally breaking it down to the most basic point that would give weight to the statement I made earlier skipping the complexities of when South Ossetia was an autonomous oblast within the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic back in the soviet era. Anyway I am not talking about South Ossetia’s right to self-determination or the right to secession.I am making only a specific point based on legal analysis where back in 1992 after the previous conflict the Russian intervention allowed South Ossetia to become a de-facto independent republic but yes it is still seen as part of Georgia by the "international community".

I am referring to the status quo that was in place back in 2008 to stop an escalation which was broken by Georgian forces and as the Russians took responsibility for "peacekeeping enforcement" they had no choice but to enforce this and yeah anyone with an IQ over 80 is aware of Russian MO with regards using separatists to lay claim to territory but Georgia violated international law when it used force against Russian "peacekeeping" troops stationed in Tskhinvali, and from that moment, Russia’s army had grounds to use force in the "peacekeepers" defense. This is FACT based on international law whether one likes it or not without any form of bias. I understand your bias towards your former homeland but in court emotions and bias along with opinions are worthless and only facts are admissable.

I support neither Russia, Georgia or south ossetians and am just the devils advocate here. I am not part of any "community" or "company" and just a casual observer stating certain facts.

I am not misinformed nor a misinformer. Georgia could have been a whole lot more clever in how it dealt with the situation and only played right into the hands of Russia giving them the pretext they were waiting for to use military force albeit outrageous disproportionate force. All is fair in love and war....

Rusia does NOT have this pretext in Ukraines case because they were not the guarantors of the separatists in the region on paper signed and sealed that would have given them said pretext. I am speaking from a legal point of view no matter if its fair or unfair and I am on point on this "specific" matter and have zero interest in the politics or emotions behind the beligerence. Unfortunately we will have to agree to disagree on this "specific" point but I am pretty clued in like every dog on the street as to how Russia uses the whole separatist stage play in order to bring regions under its sphere of influence.

Step 1 - Sign agreement allowing Russian peacekeepers under Russian control in South Ossetia

Russia brokered a ceasefire and negotiated the Agreement in 1992. The agreement primarily established a cease-fire between both the Georgian and South Ossetian forces, but it also defined a zone of conflict around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and established a security corridor along the border of the as yet unrecognized South Ossetian territories. The Agreement also created a Joint Control Commission and a peacekeeping body, the Joint Peacekeeping Forces group (JPKF). The JPKF was put under Russian command

Step 2 - Attack South Ossetia with Russian peacekeepers
Russian, Georgian forces battle in South Ossetia
Georgia pounds S Ossetia fighters

Step 3 - Blame Russia

Edit:
Step 4 - Don't ever mention this when discussing Russia-Georgia war?

[paxmao]

You don't have the full data. I'll tell you.
This conflict began with Russia's support for Ossetian separatists.
In the early 1990s, South Ossetia proclaimed their independence, which was never recognized by the international community (except for Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Syria, and Nauru).

Georgia believes that South Ossetia is its ancestral land, and Ossetians are just another ethnic group. Georgia sees South Ossetia's desire to secede as the result of Russian policy and incitement. Russian provided financial and military support to Ossetian separatists.

In both 2008 in Georgia, and in 2014 and 2022 in Ukraine, Russian propaganda used the narrative that Georgia and Ukraine were committing "genocide" against the Russian-speaking population, which required a "humanitarian intervention." International investigations did not confirm these accusations.

Therefore, claiming that "Georgia attacked Ossetia" is equivalent to claiming that "Ukraine attacked the DPR and LPR."

(It's important to add that Ossetians are a distinct people who are not part of the Georgian ethnic group. It's a pity that they attempted to realize their right to self-determination through armed conflict with Russia's help, just like Abkhazia. Now, having gained independence from Georgia, both Ossetia and Abkhazia are, in effect, under the control of Russia.)

PS. Please research such things a little better. Spreading incorrect information harms the community.

I hate getting into loads of back n forth that requires time and walls of text so literally breaking it down to the most basic point that would give weight to the statement I made earlier skipping the complexities of when South Ossetia was an autonomous oblast within the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic back in the soviet era. Anyway I am not talking about South Ossetia’s right to self-determination or the right to secession.I am making only a specific point based on legal analysis where back in 1992 after the previous conflict the Russian intervention allowed South Ossetia to become a de-facto independent republic but yes it is still seen as part of Georgia by the "international community".

I am referring to the status quo that was in place back in 2008 to stop an escalation which was broken by Georgian forces and as the Russians took responsibility for "peacekeeping enforcement" they had no choice but to enforce this and yeah anyone with an IQ over 80 is aware of Russian MO with regards using separatists to lay claim to territory but Georgia violated international law when it used force against Russian "peacekeeping" troops stationed in Tskhinvali, and from that moment, Russia’s army had grounds to use force in the "peacekeepers" defense. This is FACT based on international law whether one likes it or not without any form of bias. I understand your bias towards your former homeland but in court emotions and bias along with opinions are worthless and only facts are admissable.

I support neither Russia, Georgia or south ossetians and am just the devils advocate here. I am not part of any "community" or "company" and just a casual observer stating certain facts.

I am not misinformed nor a misinformer. Georgia could have been a whole lot more clever in how it dealt with the situation and only played right into the hands of Russia giving them the pretext they were waiting for to use military force albeit outrageous disproportionate force. All is fair in love and war....

Rusia does NOT have this pretext in Ukraines case because they were not the guarantors of the separatists in the region on paper signed and sealed that would have given them said pretext. I am speaking from a legal point of view no matter if its fair or unfair and I am on point on this "specific" matter and have zero interest in the politics or emotions behind the beligerence. Unfortunately we will have to agree to disagree on this "specific" point but I am pretty clued in like every dog on the street as to how Russia uses the whole separatist stage play in order to bring regions under its sphere of influence.

Step 1 - Sign agreement allowing Russian peacekeepers under Russian control in South Ossetia

Russia brokered a ceasefire and negotiated the Agreement in 1992. The agreement primarily established a cease-fire between both the Georgian and South Ossetian forces, but it also defined a zone of conflict around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and established a security corridor along the border of the as yet unrecognized South Ossetian territories. The Agreement also created a Joint Control Commission and a peacekeeping body, the Joint Peacekeeping Forces group (JPKF). The JPKF was put under Russian command

Step 2 - Attack South Ossetia with Russian peacekeepers
Russian, Georgian forces battle in South Ossetia
Georgia pounds S Ossetia fighters

Step 3 - Blame Russia

Edit:
Step 4 - Don't ever mention this when discussing Russia-Georgia war?

Just Ruzzia defending its interests as usual. If they ever believed in an independent country they would not need to be guarantors of anything. Ruzzia is to blame for the whole inestability in the region. Otherwise the existing groups would simply have to find a way to settle their own interests and reach an agreement - with whatever means.

On regards to Ukraine, same principle - Ruzzia's government self-issuing themselves the right to rule over others.

I love this one...

to become full citizens of Russia with full rights

Full rights... and full limitations and obligations. Most know which are of greater weight, particularly if you do not live in Moscow or StPb.

[DaRude]

You don't have the full data. I'll tell you.
This conflict began with Russia's support for Ossetian separatists.
In the early 1990s, South Ossetia proclaimed their independence, which was never recognized by the international community (except for Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Syria, and Nauru).

Georgia believes that South Ossetia is its ancestral land, and Ossetians are just another ethnic group. Georgia sees South Ossetia's desire to secede as the result of Russian policy and incitement. Russian provided financial and military support to Ossetian separatists.

In both 2008 in Georgia, and in 2014 and 2022 in Ukraine, Russian propaganda used the narrative that Georgia and Ukraine were committing "genocide" against the Russian-speaking population, which required a "humanitarian intervention." International investigations did not confirm these accusations.

Therefore, claiming that "Georgia attacked Ossetia" is equivalent to claiming that "Ukraine attacked the DPR and LPR."

(It's important to add that Ossetians are a distinct people who are not part of the Georgian ethnic group. It's a pity that they attempted to realize their right to self-determination through armed conflict with Russia's help, just like Abkhazia. Now, having gained independence from Georgia, both Ossetia and Abkhazia are, in effect, under the control of Russia.)

PS. Please research such things a little better. Spreading incorrect information harms the community.

I hate getting into loads of back n forth that requires time and walls of text so literally breaking it down to the most basic point that would give weight to the statement I made earlier skipping the complexities of when South Ossetia was an autonomous oblast within the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic back in the soviet era. Anyway I am not talking about South Ossetia’s right to self-determination or the right to secession.I am making only a specific point based on legal analysis where back in 1992 after the previous conflict the Russian intervention allowed South Ossetia to become a de-facto independent republic but yes it is still seen as part of Georgia by the "international community".

I am referring to the status quo that was in place back in 2008 to stop an escalation which was broken by Georgian forces and as the Russians took responsibility for "peacekeeping enforcement" they had no choice but to enforce this and yeah anyone with an IQ over 80 is aware of Russian MO with regards using separatists to lay claim to territory but Georgia violated international law when it used force against Russian "peacekeeping" troops stationed in Tskhinvali, and from that moment, Russia’s army had grounds to use force in the "peacekeepers" defense. This is FACT based on international law whether one likes it or not without any form of bias. I understand your bias towards your former homeland but in court emotions and bias along with opinions are worthless and only facts are admissable.

I support neither Russia, Georgia or south ossetians and am just the devils advocate here. I am not part of any "community" or "company" and just a casual observer stating certain facts.

I am not misinformed nor a misinformer. Georgia could have been a whole lot more clever in how it dealt with the situation and only played right into the hands of Russia giving them the pretext they were waiting for to use military force albeit outrageous disproportionate force. All is fair in love and war....

Rusia does NOT have this pretext in Ukraines case because they were not the guarantors of the separatists in the region on paper signed and sealed that would have given them said pretext. I am speaking from a legal point of view no matter if its fair or unfair and I am on point on this "specific" matter and have zero interest in the politics or emotions behind the beligerence. Unfortunately we will have to agree to disagree on this "specific" point but I am pretty clued in like every dog on the street as to how Russia uses the whole separatist stage play in order to bring regions under its sphere of influence.

Step 1 - Sign agreement allowing Russian peacekeepers under Russian control in South Ossetia

Russia brokered a ceasefire and negotiated the Agreement in 1992. The agreement primarily established a cease-fire between both the Georgian and South Ossetian forces, but it also defined a zone of conflict around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and established a security corridor along the border of the as yet unrecognized South Ossetian territories. The Agreement also created a Joint Control Commission and a peacekeeping body, the Joint Peacekeeping Forces group (JPKF). The JPKF was put under Russian command

Step 2 - Attack South Ossetia with Russian peacekeepers
Russian, Georgian forces battle in South Ossetia
Georgia pounds S Ossetia fighters

Step 3 - Blame Russia

Edit:
Step 4 - Don't ever mention this when discussing Russia-Georgia war?

Just Ruzzia defending its interests as usual. If they ever believed in an independent country they would not need to be guarantors of anything. Ruzzia is to blame for the whole inestability in the region. Otherwise the existing groups would simply have to find a way to settle their own interests and reach an agreement - with whatever means.

On regards to Ukraine, same principle - Ruzzia's government self-issuing themselves the right to rule over others.

I love this one...

to become full citizens of Russia with full rights

Full rights... and full limitations and obligations. Most know which are of greater weight, particularly if you do not live in Moscow or StPb.

Well, there is a status quo, when there's an attempt to change it someone is trying to expand one interest and someone will be defending it. Russia believes in other's independence much more that US does. But for some reason you never want to go for the biggest offender.

If third highest US politician wouldn't have given out those cookies and supported coup in Ukraine would so many people have died? Ukraine would've already had three different presidential elections, and there's a good chance Putin wouldn't be at the head of Russia, and EU would be doing great now. Arguments that Russia causes instability in countries around Russia's borders but US causes stability globally is laughable.

US self issued themselves the right to rule over the globe.

Point being millions who were born in Ukraine who now received Russian citizenship enjoy the same rights, privileges and have obligations as those born in Russia, there are no differences. This is in stark contrast to Palestinians being second class citizens on their own land which the west gladly supports. In the West Bank Palestinians are subject to Israeli military court under martial's law where Israelis are judged by Israeli civil law. But as long as US/EU can benefit that is totally fine.

They have a freedom of movement, no one is stopping them from going back to Ukraine if they wish to.

[farsky]

How nice to totally ignore the Bucharest NATO summit, where in April 2008 USA wanted Georgia to join NATO, which would've been impossible with disputed territories in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Then, just 4 months later Georgia attacks sends it's army to take over South Ossetia by force, is all just a total coincidence, not even worth mentioning for "full data", right?  

this is an accompanying/additional reason and it took place.
Georgia would have tried to get its territories back in any case.
But of course you are trying to shift the topic to NATO?
it is so predictable.
A club of historians is being formed here since the time of the Rurikovichs (reference to Putin)
in any case it is an off-topic.

However, you have really shit yourself with your lies.

again Gaza...
I regret reading this, but now I can't keep quiet

in one Ukrainians are encouraged to relocate

What nonsense, what kind of "encouragement for resettlement" are we talking about?

Are you not aware that Ukrainians issue evacuation orders for cities coming on the front lines, they even try to force people to evacuate but millions of civilians still stay and then become Russian citizens.

I know, but we're not talking about millions.
Dude, I'm literally from Russia and I have relatives in Ukraine.
And I know (everyone knows) that there are NOT millions of people who remain on the front lines.

Obviously there is no exact data, Ukraine wouldn't release it. A minority? Please cite your claims. How many did you think there were?

According to unofficial data, more than a million people died, more likely closer to 1.2 million.

What makes them not "full citizens" are you claiming that "full" Russian citizens were not mobilized as well? Citation or just spreading propaganda?

complete lack of social protection

Cite something to back up your claim that there is "no water or electricity" in Crimea, Mariupol, Melitopol in comparison to Ukrainian cities, or stop spreading propaganda.

in many cities of Ukraine that are captured, there is no water and electricity, the cities are not being restored

Thank you for proving my point, despite such huge land destruction, somehow Russia amazingly still managed to keep civilian casualties to a minimum.

Oh, I see you’re quite good at dodging responsibility.
You lied — I caught you. But now you’re twisting it as if I “confirmed your point of view,” even though earlier you claimed there was no destruction.
I’ll repeat your lie and my reply again.

collateral damage in Ukraine is minimal compared to military deaths and lower in absolutes than in Gaza.

This is already a blatant lie. In Ukraine, dozens of small towns have been destroyed, together exceeding the area of Gaza.
In Gaza, about 185 square kilometers are destroyed. In Ukraine (counting only the immediate combat zone), the scale of destruction is about 300 square kilometers — and that’s just medium-sized towns.
On top of that, there are countless villages. And there is also destruction in cities far from the front lines that are still hit by Russian missiles.
In total, this adds up to about 900 square kilometers — 2.4 times larger than Gaza.
There is not a single city in Ukraine that has not been shelled. This is not a border skirmish, it is a full-scale war.

Nature and open land have also been devastated: fields, forests, shelterbelts, roads, bridges, and dams destroyed.

Your ignorance is catastrophic. I strongly advise you not to get into topics you clearly don’t understand.

Ukraine-HRMMU has documented the deaths of at least 13,883 civilians, including 726 children

This data is understated.
In the combat zone, it is impossible to adequately and safely not only recover all the bodies, but even approach the area.
Ukraine does not have a Hamas-style “Ministry of Health” that releases casualty figures within an hour after an attack.


the problem with people like me is that I do not have endless time to sit here and object to your lies. I don't have the time or resources for this. I don't get paid for this. That's why propaganda usually wins.

[DaRude]

How nice to totally ignore the Bucharest NATO summit, where in April 2008 USA wanted Georgia to join NATO, which would've been impossible with disputed territories in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Then, just 4 months later Georgia attacks sends it's army to take over South Ossetia by force, is all just a total coincidence, not even worth mentioning for "full data", right?  

this is an accompanying/additional reason and it took place.
Georgia would have tried to get its territories back in any case.
But of course you are trying to shift the topic to NATO?
it is so predictable.
A club of historians is being formed here since the time of the Rurikovichs (reference to Putin)
in any case it is an off-topic.

However, you have really shit yourself with your lies.

again Gaza...
I regret reading this, but now I can't keep quiet

in one Ukrainians are encouraged to relocate

What nonsense, what kind of "encouragement for resettlement" are we talking about?

Are you not aware that Ukrainians issue evacuation orders for cities coming on the front lines, they even try to force people to evacuate but millions of civilians still stay and then become Russian citizens.

I know, but we're not talking about millions.
Dude, I'm literally from Russia and I have relatives in Ukraine.
And I know (everyone knows) that there are NOT millions of people who remain on the front lines.

Obviously there is no exact data, Ukraine wouldn't release it. A minority? Please cite your claims. How many did you think there were?

According to unofficial data, more than a million people died, more likely closer to 1.2 million.

What makes them not "full citizens" are you claiming that "full" Russian citizens were not mobilized as well? Citation or just spreading propaganda?

complete lack of social protection

Cite something to back up your claim that there is "no water or electricity" in Crimea, Mariupol, Melitopol in comparison to Ukrainian cities, or stop spreading propaganda.

in many cities of Ukraine that are captured, there is no water and electricity, the cities are not being restored

Thank you for proving my point, despite such huge land destruction, somehow Russia amazingly still managed to keep civilian casualties to a minimum.

Oh, I see you’re quite good at dodging responsibility.
You lied — I caught you. But now you’re twisting it as if I “confirmed your point of view,” even though earlier you claimed there was no destruction.
I’ll repeat your lie and my reply again.

collateral damage in Ukraine is minimal compared to military deaths and lower in absolutes than in Gaza.

This is already a blatant lie. In Ukraine, dozens of small towns have been destroyed, together exceeding the area of Gaza.
In Gaza, about 185 square kilometers are destroyed. In Ukraine (counting only the immediate combat zone), the scale of destruction is about 300 square kilometers — and that’s just medium-sized towns.
On top of that, there are countless villages. And there is also destruction in cities far from the front lines that are still hit by Russian missiles.
In total, this adds up to about 900 square kilometers — 2.4 times larger than Gaza.
There is not a single city in Ukraine that has not been shelled. This is not a border skirmish, it is a full-scale war.

Nature and open land have also been devastated: fields, forests, shelterbelts, roads, bridges, and dams destroyed.

Your ignorance is catastrophic. I strongly advise you not to get into topics you clearly don’t understand.

Ukraine-HRMMU has documented the deaths of at least 13,883 civilians, including 726 children

This data is understated.
In the combat zone, it is impossible to adequately and safely not only recover all the bodies, but even approach the area.
Ukraine does not have a Hamas-style “Ministry of Health” that releases casualty figures within an hour after an attack.


the problem with people like me is that I do not have endless time to sit here and object to your lies. I don't have the time or resources for this. I don't get paid for this. That's why propaganda usually wins.

And of course you're trying to say that military alliance trying to enlarge and expand to two new countries, after which there is a war in both of those countries is just a total coincidence?

So i make a statement, you question it, i provide a citation that stated that 3 to 3.5 million Ukrainians are estimated to be living under occupation, you provide no information,  accuse me of lying, and you back it up with that you're from Russia and have relatives in Ukraine? Solid point  

I never said they remained on the front lines, they might've relocated within Russia, Crimea, Mariupol etc...

"According to unofficial data, more than a million people died, more likely closer to 1.2 million." again i provide citation from United Nations Human Rights on CIVILIAN casualties (i believe from both sides) but you talk about people dying, what "people" does your unofficial data without citation include military from both sides?

What social protection do natural Russian citizens and naturalized Russian citizens from like Belarus enjoy that naturalized Russian citizen from Ukraine do not?

"in many cities of Ukraine that are captured, there is no water and electricity, the cities are not being restored" yes there is a war zone and some cities might be so destroyed that they just cannot be restored. Not sure if there's much left of Bakhmut to restore. Show me a captured city that stayed relatively intact and is far from the front lines that is not being restored?

WTF i never claimed there was no destruction. I said collateral damage (in terms of civilian casualties) in Ukraine was minimal in comparison to Gaza. I don't even understand what lie you're accusing me of,

I agree data might not be exact but it's the best we have unless you can provide a more accurate source. And no, wild claims based on the fact that you're Russian are not more credible than UNHR.

[paxmao]

Seems that Putin is now in Alaska. i wonder what can make the old ganster come out of the Lair.  Maybe trying to win in an office what he cannot in the field?

This time "sanctions" have been directly applied to this ship in Astrakan port. No need for secondary sanctions or economic ones. Drone it, done it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJqegb8xrs8&list=WL&index=1

You don't have the full data. I'll tell you.
This conflict began with Russia's support for Ossetian separatists.
In the early 1990s, South Ossetia proclaimed their independence, which was never recognized by the international community (except for Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Syria, and Nauru).

Georgia believes that South Ossetia is its ancestral land, and Ossetians are just another ethnic group. Georgia sees South Ossetia's desire to secede as the result of Russian policy and incitement. Russian provided financial and military support to Ossetian separatists.

In both 2008 in Georgia, and in 2014 and 2022 in Ukraine, Russian propaganda used the narrative that Georgia and Ukraine were committing "genocide" against the Russian-speaking population, which required a "humanitarian intervention." International investigations did not confirm these accusations.

Therefore, claiming that "Georgia attacked Ossetia" is equivalent to claiming that "Ukraine attacked the DPR and LPR."

(It's important to add that Ossetians are a distinct people who are not part of the Georgian ethnic group. It's a pity that they attempted to realize their right to self-determination through armed conflict with Russia's help, just like Abkhazia. Now, having gained independence from Georgia, both Ossetia and Abkhazia are, in effect, under the control of Russia.)

PS. Please research such things a little better. Spreading incorrect information harms the community.

I hate getting into loads of back n forth that requires time and walls of text so literally breaking it down to the most basic point that would give weight to the statement I made earlier skipping the complexities of when South Ossetia was an autonomous oblast within the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic back in the soviet era. Anyway I am not talking about South Ossetia’s right to self-determination or the right to secession.I am making only a specific point based on legal analysis where back in 1992 after the previous conflict the Russian intervention allowed South Ossetia to become a de-facto independent republic but yes it is still seen as part of Georgia by the "international community".

I am referring to the status quo that was in place back in 2008 to stop an escalation which was broken by Georgian forces and as the Russians took responsibility for "peacekeeping enforcement" they had no choice but to enforce this and yeah anyone with an IQ over 80 is aware of Russian MO with regards using separatists to lay claim to territory but Georgia violated international law when it used force against Russian "peacekeeping" troops stationed in Tskhinvali, and from that moment, Russia’s army had grounds to use force in the "peacekeepers" defense. This is FACT based on international law whether one likes it or not without any form of bias. I understand your bias towards your former homeland but in court emotions and bias along with opinions are worthless and only facts are admissable.

I support neither Russia, Georgia or south ossetians and am just the devils advocate here. I am not part of any "community" or "company" and just a casual observer stating certain facts.

I am not misinformed nor a misinformer. Georgia could have been a whole lot more clever in how it dealt with the situation and only played right into the hands of Russia giving them the pretext they were waiting for to use military force albeit outrageous disproportionate force. All is fair in love and war....

Rusia does NOT have this pretext in Ukraines case because they were not the guarantors of the separatists in the region on paper signed and sealed that would have given them said pretext. I am speaking from a legal point of view no matter if its fair or unfair and I am on point on this "specific" matter and have zero interest in the politics or emotions behind the beligerence. Unfortunately we will have to agree to disagree on this "specific" point but I am pretty clued in like every dog on the street as to how Russia uses the whole separatist stage play in order to bring regions under its sphere of influence.

Step 1 - Sign agreement allowing Russian peacekeepers under Russian control in South Ossetia

Russia brokered a ceasefire and negotiated the Agreement in 1992. The agreement primarily established a cease-fire between both the Georgian and South Ossetian forces, but it also defined a zone of conflict around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and established a security corridor along the border of the as yet unrecognized South Ossetian territories. The Agreement also created a Joint Control Commission and a peacekeeping body, the Joint Peacekeeping Forces group (JPKF). The JPKF was put under Russian command

Step 2 - Attack South Ossetia with Russian peacekeepers
Russian, Georgian forces battle in South Ossetia
Georgia pounds S Ossetia fighters

Step 3 - Blame Russia

Edit:
Step 4 - Don't ever mention this when discussing Russia-Georgia war?

Just Ruzzia defending its interests as usual. If they ever believed in an independent country they would not need to be guarantors of anything. Ruzzia is to blame for the whole inestability in the region. Otherwise the existing groups would simply have to find a way to settle their own interests and reach an agreement - with whatever means.

On regards to Ukraine, same principle - Ruzzia's government self-issuing themselves the right to rule over others.

I love this one...

to become full citizens of Russia with full rights

Full rights... and full limitations and obligations. Most know which are of greater weight, particularly if you do not live in Moscow or StPb.

[...]

Well, there is a status quo, when there's an attempt to change it someone is trying to expand one interest and someone will be defending it. Russia believes in other's independence much more that US does. But for some reason you never want to go for the biggest offender.
[...]

The point is that you are selling Ruzzian "full rights" as something worth more than being independent and able to decide what are your rights and obligations. There is not point on this, there is no way Moscow is going to provide "services" other than servicing itself. Life does not work like that.

[DaRude]

Seems that Putin is now in Alaska. i wonder what can make the old ganster come out of the Lair.  Maybe trying to win in an office what he cannot in the field?

...

You'll see soon enough, looks like no NATO for Ukraine, Donbas is Russian fully and Zaporizhzhia and Kherson get frozen at the front lines. So pretty much what Russia has been asking for from the start in all negotiations minus Zaporizhzhia and Kherson. Might be a trap for Zelenskiy if he doesn't accept and somehow manages to sell it to Ukrainians.

The point is that you are selling Ruzzian "full rights" as something worth more than being independent and able to decide what are your rights and obligations. There is not point on this, there is no way Moscow is going to provide "services" other than servicing itself. Life does not work like that.

No i was just stating that there's no discrimination or second class citizens in Russia, Russians born in Ukraine are the same as Russians born in Russia, or Belarus or Kazakhstan any other country. Compare that to Palestinians and Israelis.

[BADecker]

Here's what is really going on in the war.


Col. Macgregor Gets Angry: "STOP LYING TO YOUR AUDIENCE" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD0_diUJTmg

[DaRude]

What exactly was discussed in the high stakes meeting and what was agreed remains a mystery.
...
Trump touted his “fantastic relationship” with his Russian counterpart and branded the meeting “extremely productive.”
...
Referring to Putin, he continued: “He's a strong guy, he's tough as hell and all of that, but the meeting was a very warm meeting between two very important countries, and it's very good when they get along.”

Earlier in the day, Trump rolled out the red carpet for Putin, greeting him warmly before they jumped into his U.S. limousine, dubbed “The Beast.”

At the end of their joint speech to press Putin suggested the pair next meet on his home turf: Moscow.

“That’s an interesting one, I’ll get a little heat on that one,” Trump replied. “But I could see it possibly happening.”
...
Despite the flack, Trump told Hannity he believed on a scale of one to 10, the meeting was a 10. “It’s good when two big powers get along, especially when they’re nuclear powers.
...
Host Sean Hannity asked what advice he would give to Zelensky and Trump replied: “Make the deal. Gotta make a deal.”

Trump says Biden handed Ukraine money like it was ‘candy’
“I think we're pretty close to it. And look, Ukraine has agreed to it," Trump told Sean Hannity during a Friday appearance on “Hannity.” "Maybe they'll say no because Biden handed out money like it was candy. And Europe gave them a lot of money. You know, we gave $350 billion. Europe gave them much less, but still a lot. $100 billion.”

Putin thanked Trump for the “friendly” tone of the conversation they had on Friday and said Russia and the United States should “turn the page and go back to cooperation.”

He praised Trump as someone who “has a clear idea of what he wants to achieve and sincerely cares about the prosperity of his country, and at the same time shows understanding that Russia’s has its own national interests.”

“I expect that today’s agreements will become a reference point not only for solving the Ukrainian problem, but will also mark the beginning of the restoration of businesslike, pragmatic relations between Russia and the U.S.,” Putin said.

Well, the trap for Zelenskyy is set, he either accepts the proposal and then has to explain why it took over 3 years and so many lost lives to accept the same outcome to Ukrainians, or not accept it then as Trump hinted he'll loose funding from USA and eventually even more territory. But he's a good comic, maybe he can somehow spin it as a positive and convince Ukrainians that all of this was not in vain because they protected Poland  

Would be interesting to see how UK, France and Germany will explain this all to their electorate too

[paxmao]

Oh... so many quesions to answer , by everyone




^^^^

All this subject to finding what really comes out of this meeting... or whatever it is but...

As usual, your interpretation is.. what it is. Of course Putin is happy with what he got from Trump. I am myself surprised about how little Trump has learned about Ruzzian diplomacy despite the many sessions he has now gone through. However...

But it is not unexpected. Putin will "declare victory" in any outcome whatsoever and anyway it does not look like anyone will question. However, that is very different from victory as such.

Firstly, I think Putin will have to explain (or not explain anyway) why he has emptied the soviet arsenal of war to take the Donbas. I do understand waging a war for a land bridge to Crimea, but all these years for destroyed villages and a region that is mostly underdeveloped? Economically stupid.

Or, if you choose to think about it as creating a "buffer", well that is something, but also only to find out that Ukraine and many other nations have anyway drones and missiles that have much much longer range.

[...]
You'll see soon enough, looks like no NATO for Ukraine, Donbas is Russian fully and Zaporizhzhia and Kherson get frozen at the front lines. So pretty much what Russia has been asking for from the start in all negotiations minus Zaporizhzhia and Kherson. Might be a trap for Zelenskiy if he doesn't accept and somehow manages to sell it to Ukrainians.

[...]

Oh, so that is what Ruzzia has been "asking" since the begining? I see. So let's recap:

- Objective: Demilitarise, "de-nazify" and all that - translation: Install a pro-Ruzzian government in Ukraine... FAILED.
- Objective, replacing the former: Impose impossible conditions for Ukraine, so that it eventually becomes untenable.... FAILED.
- Objective, replacing those two: Take 4 regions of Ukraine. FAILED.
- Objective, replacing all the former: Take the Donbas. MAYBE?

The terms and conditions PROPOSED are to be seen, so all this is "with due caution". Ukraine may not accept to give territory just like that.

That is a short summary, perhaps too short and simplistic, but it certainly helps to understand what has been the real power of Ruzzia when actually put into practice, agains an extremely small version of what a war actually could be. It all points to what anyone in the future will classify as a minor "victory" or an "indecisive" closure. The economic damage, the militarisation of Ukraine, the international image of Ruzzia ridiculed by a relative small nation.... Yep sure, declare whatever (IF it happens).

Re Zelensky... again, depending on and if any of that actually happens, but he is probably going to be a big name in Ukraine's history. Putin will be a footnote in history - another Ruzzian gangster.

My guess is that Europe has not been left as out of the deal as it looks, else this may actually not end. There is one key takeaway for Europe from the current state of affairs with the US: EU cannot rely anymore on the US. What this means for Ruzzia, well I have quite a good idea of what it means, but I want to wait for the next few weeks.

What the heck... I think Ukraine is going to be armed to the teeth by Europe, and who cares about NATO if the US people choose guys like Trump, it is better to be out, grow the nuclear arsenal, grow the strategic capabilities and finish the development of the air defence equivalent of Patriots - which is already an ongoing programme.

Ruzzia is the one "European" country which has learned nothing from WW II.

BTW: It seems that Ukraine has encircled around 350 Ruzzis near Prokosk.

[DaRude]

Oh... so many quesions to answer , by everyone




^^^^

Sure, just as Zelenskiy must "declare victory" in any outcome whatsoever, and Trump and EU must all "declare victory" in any outcome whatsoever. So everyone must claim to be a winner! For Putin, no NATO in Ukraine, return of Russian culture, language, books, religion etc.. in Ukraine, 5 new territories I believe would be an easy sell. Plus it sets a precedence, do you think Georgia or another buffer state would accept Nuland's cookies now seeing how much Ukrainians had to pay for those cookies in blood and territory? Also, don't forget the agreements between US and Russia are not only shortsighted to stop the immediate guns from firing, like I've been saying big game is played for spheres of influence, and voters in Odesa and Kharkiv will be the most problematic and become huge liability for current regime in Ukraine.

Demilitarise - of course vague from the start on purpose, but if Ukraine will become a neutral state and not under any military alliance like NATO, I'd argue that this point was achieved.
de-nazify - i believe the most aggressive nazi's that wanted to fight Russia the most, did so first and are no longer with us. Azov one of the most radical groups with literal Black Sun in it's logo is now just a shell of itself and was integrated into official Ukrainian army and removed the Black Sun. After the guns are silenced it be hard for wounded nazi's to get new recruits and those that are not wounded would be a laughed at as they retreated from Mariupol and left most of their comrades there and then retreated from all of Donbas. It's hard to sell yourself when you retreated. Plus with Russian culture and language the victory day and Ukrainian role in defeating Nazi's would also come back to the masses, and Bandera and right sector would be tabooed.
We're yet to see what will happen to the Ukrainian regime once guns go silent. This would be the next step, and it's impossible that it wasn't part of the agreements discussed by Putin and Trump
Russia was only asking for Donbas (2 regions) before this all started, plus I'm sure Russia will publish US's written response to its security demands that it received in January 2022 before this all started.
Not taking Zaporizhzhia and Kherson (cities) would be a huge minus for Putin, but if Putin gets everything else i believe Russians will be able to overlook it

Of course i do not have any insights on the terms of the actual proposal. But if in it Putin didn't get those things, like if Russia had to hand over Kherson Oblast to Ukraine, or Ukraine was allowed to join NATO, or Russian language didn't return to Ukraine, then selling it as a win for Putin would be much more problematic.

If Ukraine won't be neutral and is allowed to be armed to the teeth including nuclear arsenal then i will concede that it will be a loss for Russia.

But i think you're doing a great job prepping the ground and claiming this as not a win for Russia. If Russia gets all those things i talked about and you can somehow sell it as not a win for Russia, then i'm all for it.

[BADecker]

As long as Zelensky has the ability to fight, the talks mean nothing. He won't agree with anything that tries to take his mind off what he wants to do.

We can only hope that some of the American mercenaries that he hires wind up turning on him and taking him out, or that he OD's on some of that white powder he sniffs.

[WillyAp]

Could it be that many of you haven't heard of Holdomor?

The Holodomor also known as the Ukrainian famine, was a mass famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. The Holodomor was part of the wider Soviet famine of 1930–1933 which affected the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

No wonder that Russian credibility is running pretty low in the Ukraine.

[paxmao]

Oh... so many quesions to answer , by everyone




^^^^

Sure, just as Zelenskiy must "declare victory" in any outcome whatsoever, and Trump and EU must all "declare victory" in any outcome whatsoever. So everyone must claim to be a winner! For Putin, no NATO in Ukraine, return of Russian culture, language, books, religion etc.. in Ukraine, 5 new territories I believe would be an easy sell. Plus it sets a precedence, do you think Georgia or another buffer state would accept Nuland's cookies now seeing how much Ukrainians had to pay for those cookies in blood and territory? Also, don't forget the agreements between US and Russia are not only shortsighted to stop the immediate guns from firing, like I've been saying big game is played for spheres of influence, and voters in Odesa and Kharkiv will be the most problematic and become huge liability for current regime in Ukraine.

Demilitarise - of course vague from the start on purpose, but if Ukraine will become a neutral state and not under any military alliance like NATO, I'd argue that this point was achieved.
de-nazify - i believe the most aggressive nazi's that wanted to fight Russia the most, did so first and are no longer with us. Azov one of the most radical groups with literal Black Sun in it's logo is now just a shell of itself and was integrated into official Ukrainian army and removed the Black Sun. After the guns are silenced it be hard for wounded nazi's to get new recruits and those that are not wounded would be a laughed at as they retreated from Mariupol and left most of their comrades there and then retreated from all of Donbas. It's hard to sell yourself when you retreated. Plus with Russian culture and language the victory day and Ukrainian role in defeating Nazi's would also come back to the masses, and Bandera and right sector would be tabooed.
We're yet to see what will happen to the Ukrainian regime once guns go silent. This would be the next step, and it's impossible that it wasn't part of the agreements discussed by Putin and Trump
Russia was only asking for Donbas (2 regions) before this all started, plus I'm sure Russia will publish US's written response to its security demands that it received in January 2022 before this all started.
Not taking Zaporizhzhia and Kherson (cities) would be a huge minus for Putin, but if Putin gets everything else i believe Russians will be able to overlook it

Of course i do not have any insights on the terms of the actual proposal. But if in it Putin didn't get those things, like if Russia had to hand over Kherson Oblast to Ukraine, or Ukraine was allowed to join NATO, or Russian language didn't return to Ukraine, then selling it as a win for Putin would be much more problematic.

If Ukraine won't be neutral and is allowed to be armed to the teeth including nuclear arsenal then i will concede that it will be a loss for Russia.

But i think you're doing a great job prepping the ground and claiming this as not a win for Russia. If Russia gets all those things i talked about and you can somehow sell it as not a win for Russia, then i'm all for it.

I do not think that Zelensky has to announce a victory. Remember, he is actually an elected president. I doubt very much he wants to stay in power (I would not).

Return of Ruzzian culture... I do not see how that is going to happen. Ruzzia now is hated - as you would imagine.

New territories (5??), maybe. But you have to ask what did you exchange for them and how long will you be able to hold them.

No NATO... well, formally that may or may not be the case, but after this war, Ukraine will be permanently in war footing. No more "surprises" and if Ruzzia wants to try again, it will find something completely different. I think Putin and the future gangsters of Ruzzia understand the real cost of invading.

But again, all this may or may not be. I do not picture Zelensky giving territory for free and I do not picture Europe taking just any deal no matter how bad. After all, US is no longer a trusted ally, so if there needs to be confrontation, there will be confrontation.