BitMarket.Eu has closed down

[PowerChaos]

well , i can not leave it to trow in a final agrument about safety ( thats where ever1 is complaning about right .. chargebacks and security ??)

Virus teistert online bankieren

brussel Een schadelijk virus teistert al enkele dagen het internetbankieren van enkele Belgische banken. Het gaat om Dexia, ING, KBC en BNP Paribas Fortis. Klanten krijgen tijdens het internetbankieren een ongewone pop-up te zien die hen vraagt een overschrijving te bevestigen, waarmee ze eigenlijk geld op een rekening van de criminelen zetten. Alleen bij Dexia en ING werden enkele klanten het slachtoffer van de fraude, en blijft het verloren bedrag vrij beperkt. Bij BNP Paribas Fortis en KBC liepen de jongste weken wel meldingen binnen van onregelmatigheden tijdens het internetbankieren, maar werden er geen klanten getroffen. Pamela Renders, woordvoerster van de federatie van de financiële sector Febelfin, benadrukt dat het de computer van de klanten is die wordt aangevallen, en niet het systeem van de banken. Ook moeten klanten hun computers voldoende beveiligen.n

direct source link
http://www.metrotime.be/digipaperArticlenl.html?storyId=44144691

i know that the text is in dutch and that it goes about belguim this time
but it show my point to that it is not even safe to use online banking

for the users who can not read dutch
they just say that there was a infection that infected online banking , so when the user is completing the transfer they get a strange popup that ask for conformation
as soon you confirm it then it get sended to the criminal there bank account

ofcourse this has nothing to do with paypal or with bitcoin
but it just shows that how secure you think that something is , that it isnt always that secure as it seems
and that 1 way transfers are not realy the best solution

1 way transfers are fun for the seller  , but a security risk for the buyer ( do he realy get his items he buy ?? )
2 way transfers are more risky for sellers and definaly a lot of fun for the buyers (if he doesnt give me the items .. then i just take my money back )
so both things got there good and bad sides
but the problem stays the same , it is just as easy to scam some1 or to get scammed
as seller or as buyer ... depends how you take care of the things and how you make the deal

the only thing that realy helps to prevent from scamming is to secure and trust the trade
so if it is a real life friend , or you find some info about that user ? or you find not direcly something that doesnt make it looks strange then it is already safer to start the trade

if you do not trust some1 then you can better not trade ... but you need to start somewhere ofcourse

hopely this post can clear up the useless comments about the safety and the rubish about paypal .. bank transfer , moneybookers .. bitcoins .. and all other trading currency's

to get to the point

money/trading = risky
risky = fraude
fraude = humanity
humanity = welcome to our world
our world = cyberworld
cyberworld = future
future  = more fraude/scamming
more fraude/scamming = more security
more security = more money/trading
more trading/money = risky ...

Greets From PowerChaos

[film2240]

I'm glad we still have MoneyBookers

I was the guy who asked Moneybookers to be added to the list :-)

and it did thanx to me as my main trades account is Moneybookers cus I know PayPal is unfriendly to sellers and traders,it also screws  many more people.Type in PayPal complains or problems and you'll see loads more problems that just the scams lol.

[miernik]

I've never had a bank transfer that didn't take at least 3 days

SEPA is 3 days (and free) now, dunno about SWIFT etc, these are to expensive for myself and very low BTC-amounts (1-10).

SEPA 3 days? When I send a SEPA on a working day by 14:45, it appears in the other bank the next working day in the afternoon. So "3 days" is only if I make a transfer on Friday, then it appears on Monday. Otherwise just 1 day.

Bank transfers between banks in the UK go through in under 2 hours (Faster Payments). Usually under half an hour, I heard some people see it in the other bank within a minute or two, just to refresh the browser.

In Poland you can send transfers between banks through the BlueCash.pl system and it appears in the other bank within 10 minutes usually.

[stellan0r]

a rating system will be great
can't you put it online earlier? so people can see that you (I) already have a lot of smooth transactions via bitmarket

[ancow]

I've never had a bank transfer that didn't take at least 3 days

SEPA is 3 days (and free) now, dunno about SWIFT etc, these are to expensive for myself and very low BTC-amounts (1-10).

SEPA 3 days? When I send a SEPA on a working day by 14:45, it appears in the other bank the next working day in the afternoon. So "3 days" is only if I make a transfer on Friday, then it appears on Monday. Otherwise just 1 day.

Bank transfers between banks in the UK go through in under 2 hours (Faster Payments). Usually under half an hour, I heard some people see it in the other bank within a minute or two, just to refresh the browser.

In Poland you can send transfers between banks through the BlueCash.pl system and it appears in the other bank within 10 minutes usually.

I think SEPA transfers are supposed to be at least as fast as local transfers, so banks here in Germany will usually take 3 days for SEPA transfers. (IIRC, I read this in wikipedia, if you want to verify it.)

[miernik]

I think SEPA transfers are supposed to be at least as fast as local transfers, so banks here in Germany will usually take 3 days for SEPA transfers. (IIRC, I read this in wikipedia, if you want to verify it.)

Wrong, I sent many SEPA transfers from Germany to other EU countries, and 95% of them appeared on the other account the next day in the afternoon.

In fact when I send a transfer from my one German account to the other in a different bank it appears there the next day in the morning.

So SEPA is a bit slower then national German transfer (arrival in the afternoon instead of morning).

You don't verify things by reading about it in Wikipedia. You verify things by doing them yourself and checking the result.

[ancow]

I think SEPA transfers are supposed to be at least as fast as local transfers, so banks here in Germany will usually take 3 days for SEPA transfers. (IIRC, I read this in wikipedia, if you want to verify it.)

Wrong, I sent many SEPA transfers from Germany to other EU countries, and 95% of them appeared on the other account the next day in the afternoon.

In fact when I send a transfer from my one German account to the other in a different bank it appears there the next day in the morning.

So SEPA is a bit slower then national German transfer (arrival in the afternoon instead of morning).

You don't verify things by reading about it in Wikipedia. You verify things by doing them yourself and checking the result.

In that case you're lucky with your bank. Mine takes three days, both for normal local transfers and SEPA transfers. Which kind of verifies my memory...

[miernik]

In that case you're lucky with your bank. Mine takes three days, both for normal local transfers and SEPA transfers. Which kind of verifies my memory...

Can you tell us from which bank (and maybe to which one) it took you three days, so I know to avoid these banks, and don't open accounts/send transfers there?

[ancow]

In that case you're lucky with your bank. Mine takes three days, both for normal local transfers and SEPA transfers. Which kind of verifies my memory...

Can you tell us from which bank (and maybe to which one) it took you three days, so I know to avoid these banks, and don't open accounts/send transfers there?

Anything that goes by the name "Sparkasse". I don't know about more expensive accounts, but basic ones tend to need three days, no matter where the transfer goes. (Obviously individual branches may have different rules, but most of them stick to the three-day-transfer rule, as that's how they make their money.)
As far as I know, most "common" banks (Volksbanken, Sparkassen, Landesbanken, ...) take that long. That's been my experience with incoming local transfers, anyway. Since I can't tell which bank the money came from, I don't know any more details, I'm afraid.

[PowerChaos]

Can you tell us from which bank (and maybe to which one) it took you three days, so I know to avoid these banks, and don't open accounts/send transfers there?

argenta -> other bank = 3 days
i get my money sended on wensday ( from my work) and i see it on my bank at friday/monday ( local transfer)

any -> dexia = instant -> they work with a lend system , so you basicly lend the money ( -1 day ) and the actual amount is avaible 3 days later ( +1 day )
good thing is that it is instand avaible , but you pay a little fee for it that you do not notice .. fun system that most banks does and where most banks get there money from

same count for fortis (BNP) and ing

do not know about the few other banks in belguim

this goes only about local transfers

my last transfer to uk took me 14 days from argenta

my transfer to bangladesh from fortis took me 3 weeks ( 14 - 21 days )

beside , some1 posted here my conformation about paypal to in this topic
he says that you can link a debit card to paypal ... other reason to still allow it to be used

hopely this info can help you and it confirms what i told before
please note , every country got differend banks and there are differend ways that they work
this goes about BELGUIM banks
and goes about INTERNATIONAL transfers ( transfers outside europe is international)

Greets from PowerChaos

[vv01f]

SEPA 3 days? When I send a SEPA on a working day by 14:45, it appears in the other bank the next working day in the afternoon. So "3 days" is only if I make a transfer on Friday, then it appears on Monday. Otherwise just 1 day.

It depends on the banks involved. The three days are maximum. Often I can see transfers completed within hours, but I cannot count on that.

Luckily this will change the next years, but until the banks move Bitcoin has a even graeter chance to spread.

[phase]

These are indeed SEPA regulations, the maximum time permitted for a transfer to go through. Local SEPA transfer should go through in 1 day maximum, international SEPA transfers maximum 3 days, but naturally they can go through sooner, depending indeed on the banks involved in the transfer.

[ancow]

Local SEPA transfer should go through in 1 day maximum

That's really nice to know - do you have somewhere I can look this up?

[phase]

Local SEPA transfer should go through in 1 day maximum

That's really nice to know - do you have somewhere I can look this up?

Check your bank communication, most banks communicated these details when they communicated information related to SEPA to their clients initially. Some banks report these regulations or an introduction on their website (example). I'm sure you can also find it on a European website somewhere. As of next year, international SEPA transfer should go through in 1 day max, same as local.

[ancow]

Check your bank communication, most banks communicated these details when they communicated information related to SEPA to their clients initially. Some banks report these regulations or an introduction on their website (example). I'm sure you can also find it on a European website somewhere. As of next year, international SEPA transfer should go through in 1 day max, same as local.

Unfortunately, I already looked over what my bank sent me and even at their websites. This is the most detailed description I can find: https://www.ksk-es.de/privatkunden/banking/sepa/details/index.php?n=%2Fprivatkunden%2Fbanking%2Fsepa%2Fdetails%2F&IFLBSERVERID=IF@@021@@IF
Even this only mentions that there is some sort of upper limit, it does not mention the limit itself. (It's actually a nice feat of marketing - after reading over it, you feel pretty well informed, but you are missing basic information such as timing info.)

[phase]

Yeah, so typical of banks. When customers got spoofed recently in Belgium, banks pledged to refund he clients, saying it was a "commercial move", while it is in fact their legal obligation to refund those customers...

Regarding said limits, I have found a European Payments Council document more or less 'clearly' stating these limits:

1.8
Maximum Execution Time
Originator Banks are obliged to credit the account of a Beneficiary Bank with the amount of the credit transfer within 2 Banking Business Days following the point in time of receipt of the Credit Transfer Instruction, with Beneficiary Banks then required to credit the account of a Beneficiary in accordance with the provisions of the Payment Services Directive.
From 1 January 2012, Originator Banks are obliged to credit the account of a Beneficiary Bank with the amount of the credit transfer within 1 Banking Business Day following the point in time of acceptance in accordance with the provisions of the Payment Services Directive.
The maximum execution time is explained in more detail in section 4.2.3.

4.2.3
Maximum Execution Time (3)
Originator Banks are obliged to ensure that, where permitted by their Terms and Conditions with Originators, the amount of the credit transfer is credited to the account of the Beneficiary Bank within 2 Banking Business Days following the point in time of receipt of the Credit Transfer Instruction, or otherwise, within 1 Business Day in accordance with the provisions of the Payment Services Directive.
From 1 January 2012, Originator Banks are obliged to ensure that the amount of the Credit Transfer is credited to the account of the Beneficiary Bank within one Banking Business Day following the point in time of receipt of the Credit Transfer Instruction in accordance with the provisions of the Payment Services Directive.
A Beneficiary Bank is obliged to credit the account of the Beneficiary with the amount of the credit transfer in accordance with the provisions of the Payment Services Directive.

(3) The Payment Services Directive allows an extra day for the execution of paper-initiated credit transfers. The Rulebook currently describes interbank electronic payments only and does not take into account additional time permitted for processing paper-initiated transactions. This is considered to be a matter for each Participant to regulate with its customer in accordance with applicable laws.

So, in theory even local transfers initiated with a paper SEPA transfer form can take 2 days locally and internationally starting next year, but in theory electronic transfers should go through in 1 day, both locally and internationally, starting next year. Until the end of the year, local transfers should go through in 2 days (paper) or 1 day (electronic) max, international should go through in 3 days (paper) or 2 days (electronic) max. But rest assured, plenty of banks are in frequent violation. The problem is, no one is reporting these delays.

[ancow]

Thank you!
This document is going to come in handy...

[phase]

@ ancow: Welcome
@ BitMarket admins: How would you feel about adding Neteller as a payment option?
@ BitMarket users: And how would the users feel about that, anyone here interested in using Neteller?

It works like Moneybookers, they're also popular with the poker crowd and also offer a prepaid MasterCard 'Net+' (higher ATM fee & FX rate, but no annual usage fee) to access the funds in the account. It does appear to be a bit more 'global' than Moneybookers. I couldn't find much about chargeback issues, looks promising. Lots of funding options for the account too, a lot more than any other system I've seen before.

[stellan0r]

@ BitMarket users: And how would the users feel about that, anyone here interested in using Neteller?

I prefer simple SEPA / wire transfer.

Fast enough and either the buyer pays and gets the BTC, or the buyer does not pay and doesn't get the BTC. Dead simple, and as soon as there is a rating system, the buyer has also some more safety on his side!

[sonba]

@ BitMarket users: And how would the users feel about that, anyone here interested in using Neteller?

I prefer simple SEPA / wire transfer.

Fast enough and either the buyer pays and gets the BTC, or the buyer does not pay and doesn't get the BTC. Dead simple, and as soon as there is a rating system, the buyer has also some more safety on his side!

The buyer already has 100% safety on his side. Seller's BTC get frozen and cannot be taken out. However, the buyer can write the admins with a proof of sending the wire, i.e. Admins can release the BTC. Thus, buyer have absolutely no risk.
However, I'm also looking forward to the rating system
I hope you can also rate old transactions!!!