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Author Topic: BitMarket.Eu has closed down  (Read 182374 times)
becoin
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February 06, 2013, 05:33:54 PM
 #721

The site is reopened under new ownership, independent from the old site.
I don't get this. What is the point of reopening the site under new ownership if old owner can stop the service whenever they decide to do so even under the new ownership?

The Liquidator can, of course, FORCE old owners to fully cooperate! If old owners choose to fully cooperate they get minimal possible sentence. If old owners obstruct the Liquidator then they obstruct the law and get maximum possible prison sentence for criminal offenses.

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mralbi
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February 06, 2013, 06:07:35 PM
 #722

sorry, i dont get it....

how should the old owner be able to stop the new service once the site has been transferred? In this case it would be out of his control, but why should he want to do this? The new site would be based on an agreement to pay back the old debts. CURRENTLY, while we do not have an agreement,  M4V3R can stop the service tomorrow when he wants to, but not anymore after an agreement to transfer the site has been "signed".

And your ideas about how liquidators work are quite weird ;-) I have followed few cases of liquidation, these guys are simple buerocrats, they collect all kind of paperwork together, try to sell the assets and charge a high fee for little work. After that they check once in a while if the bankrupt person has any new assets and thez distribute it fairly amongs the creditors and thats it.

Do you really beleive the liquidator would understand anything about the business or bitcoin? He does not care less. And that he would come up with ideas on how to improve the website?Huh? And after that he "forces" the old owner to programm things that are beneficial for the creditors and when he does not do it he goes 2 months longer into jail?Huh

Im totally on your side when you say it should not have happened that coins are simply lost.

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February 06, 2013, 06:48:40 PM
 #723

CURRENTLY, while we do not have an agreement,  M4V3R can stop the service tomorrow when he wants to, but not anymore after an agreement to transfer the site has been "signed".

- Practically this service has already stopped. So, stopping the service is kind of funny threat.
- What is this agreement? Can you post the draft here?
- This owner has already broken the agreement he had with his customers. What will stop him from doing same again?

I don't believe he has lost all the bitcoins. No one can guarantee that he isn't just trying to "sell" bitmarket.eu for 40K bitcoins to his customers. I'm sorry to say that but the only guarantee is well known for centuries - the prison!

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February 06, 2013, 07:00:11 PM
 #724

The Liquidator can, of course, FORCE old owners to fully cooperate! If old owners choose to fully cooperate they get minimal possible sentence. If old owners obstruct the Liquidator then they obstruct the law and get maximum possible prison sentence for criminal offenses.

That is wishful thinking. It would be as effective as the government forcing you to work with 100% taxation.

Look at all other Bitcoin thefts/scams we have seen in the past. Nobody has found a way to force cooperation. Liquidators and government are useless and will not enforce anything except their own pay check.
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February 06, 2013, 07:17:35 PM
 #725

in your opinion, what is the best option ?

I have 60 btc ... What should I choose? help me because I do not know which option to choose  Cry
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February 06, 2013, 07:19:06 PM
 #726

Nobody has found a way to force cooperation.
Of course, if someone is willing to serve prison term instead of cooperating with their creditors, then nobody can force them do anything against their own will.

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February 06, 2013, 07:38:49 PM
 #727

No i cannot post a draft agreement ;-) This is the next step when the questionnaire is finished as everything depends on the outcome and on how much investment capital we would have. Or we would see from the result that liquidation is the only way out as too little amount of persons are willing to cooperate.

And if you can find the lost coins somewhere please let us know... ;-) Before that i would say its conspiration theory.


Unfortunately there is no "best" option, only a "least worse" ;-) At least i clicked the "invest" option as i like the idea to be somehow participated in the new project instead of wasting money for lawyers

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February 06, 2013, 08:18:47 PM
 #728

What happens if you decide to invest, but for one reason or other,  the site does not reopen? or the new company decides to close it?
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February 07, 2013, 02:38:21 AM
 #729

one would need the admins support to learn how the site works

So, you are ready to live with the constant extortion of shutting up this website and losing your "frozen" coins?
 

No, there should be a clear way out with a restoration plan (reopening the website, sharing profits between users etc etc.) which cannot be changed anymore once everyone participating "formally" agreed on it.


Are you arguing with yourself???
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February 07, 2013, 03:32:34 PM
 #730

no, sorry it was wronlgy quoted, i deleted the wrong row when quoting *g

And well, the investment would be made in a clear contractual frame were roles and responsibilties are clear. There would be a business plan on what would be developed and how the payback is regulated or how the shares are regulated and who will be in charge etc etc.

But this is only the next step after the "screening" with the questionnaire. Before any investment can take place the general will of the creditors to cooperate is necessary, otherwise every plan would fail.

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February 08, 2013, 10:43:17 AM
 #731

hello guys, I do not understand these 2 options :


What happens if you decide:

 to invest, but for one reason or other, the site does not reopen?

What happens if I choose this option :

I will decide this later / I have an other ideaIn
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February 08, 2013, 10:57:39 AM
 #732

chosing to invest means that you have the general WILLINGNESS to support the investors by investing either "new money" into the site or by changing the frozen coins into shares of the new company somehow. Not more not less. It does not oblige to do anything yet, but it indicates you have the general willingess.

AFTER the initial questionnaire is finished all persons that click "invest" would be contacted immediately afterwards with another questionnaire about things like how much additional money/bitcoins they would like to invest and also a proposal how the shares are distributed, how votings rights are and in general how the investment plan would look like, i.e. which new services would be developed first, if there are further proposals, who should be in charge and all kind of stuff.

Then everyone can decide if he would like to accept the terms and conditions and be on board or not.


In case the cooperation rate is too low this step would be completely useless and skipped, therefore we wait for the outcome of the first questionnaire first.

In case the site does NOT reopen for whatever reason (e.g. since response rate is too low or not enough cooperate or the investment money would not be available or there is an earthquake and all participants die) then it just goes the "official" liquidation way.

In case of "I will decide later/ I have another idea", you would either have another idea and tell us about it. It can be as stupid as "M4V3r should play the lottery or rob a bank to pay the frozen coins back ;-) Any idea is welcome

Or in the other case we assume that you do not want to cooperate, but you also do not demand an immediate payout of frozen coins

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February 08, 2013, 12:44:45 PM
 #733

I don't believe he has lost all the bitcoins.

I found it strange that my earlier request for blockchain transactions showing the transfer to Bitcoinica didn't get a positive answer. I'm still waiting to see the Bitcoinica liquidation claim as well.

As things stand, there's no reason to believe the official story. Supporting proof can easily be given, but hasn't.

As for what's good for Bitcoin; I'd say Bitcoin scammers behind bars. That would be excellent in deterring future scams.

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February 08, 2013, 04:48:00 PM
 #734

In case of "I will decide later/ I have another idea" automatically lose my btc?
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February 09, 2013, 02:40:24 AM
 #735

As for what's good for Bitcoin; I'd say Bitcoin scammers behind bars. That would be excellent in deterring future scams.

That seems like a stupid idea. Not only would it not deter others from scamming (they'd just need to avoid publishing their details to scam without risk), you'd actually deter others who made stupid mistakes like this one from coming forward and attempting to fix their mistakes.



In case of "I will decide later/ I have another idea" automatically lose my btc?

They stated they would then contact you and try to work something out individually. However, if you would choose to go the official way of liquidation, you'd pretty much instantly lose everything. Read the previous two pages for more detail.

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February 09, 2013, 07:37:24 AM
 #736

I don't believe he has lost all the bitcoins.

I found it strange that my earlier request for blockchain transactions showing the transfer to Bitcoinica didn't get a positive answer. I'm still waiting to see the Bitcoinica liquidation claim as well.

As things stand, there's no reason to believe the official story. Supporting proof can easily be given, but hasn't.

As for what's good for Bitcoin; I'd say Bitcoin scammers behind bars. That would be excellent in deterring future scams.


I believe that I answered you regarding Bitcoinica transactions in the Blockchain - it's pointless, because there's virtually now way now for me to prove that the money went TO Bitcoinica (I can prove that the FROM address belongs to me, but I could just send it to another address of mine if I were malicious), since the site is gone and the operators aren't willing to help anyone (hence the liquidation process).

Also, no further update from the liquidators was posted, so there's nothing new to show.
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February 09, 2013, 07:41:55 AM
 #737

hello guys, I do not understand these 2 options :

What happens if you decide:

 to invest, but for one reason or other, the site does not reopen?

What happens if I choose this option :

I will decide this later / I have an other ideaIn

The chances of site not reopening are slim. This could happen if:

- someone is very overly zealous and send me in to a battle in courts. Obviously working on the site would be last thing I would be thinking of then
- I become unable to work i.e. severly ill or die
- a natural disaster hits me and takes my home and equipment
- maybe some really bad things other things that you could think of

And even then, some of these would just slow down the developments, not stop it completely.
becoin
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February 09, 2013, 09:29:16 AM
 #738

- a natural disaster hits me and takes my home and equipment

Haven't you said you have only a car?

don't have much assets as well - I rent the place I live and selling my car would probably get you less than 100 BTC.

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defxor
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February 09, 2013, 10:23:56 AM
 #739

I believe that I answered you regarding Bitcoinica transactions in the Blockchain - it's pointless, because there's virtually now way now for me to prove that the money went TO Bitcoinica (I can prove that the FROM address belongs to me, but I could just send it to another address of mine if I were malicious)

Blockchain analysis together with other known Bitcoinica transfers should give a good indication as to whether the transfers were indeed Bitcoinica related or not.

Since there's no reason not to publish the transactions, I find it strange that you claim it's pointless instead of simply doing it.

As for what's good for Bitcoin; I'd say Bitcoin scammers behind bars. That would be excellent in deterring future scams.

That seems like a stupid idea. Not only would it not deter others from scamming (they'd just need to avoid publishing their details to scam without risk), you'd actually deter others who made stupid mistakes like this one from coming forward and attempting to fix their mistakes.

Now apply your reasoning to non-Bitcoin crimes, like burglary.

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February 10, 2013, 05:04:09 AM
 #740

As for what's good for Bitcoin; I'd say Bitcoin scammers behind bars. That would be excellent in deterring future scams.

That seems like a stupid idea. Not only would it not deter others from scamming (they'd just need to avoid publishing their details to scam without risk), you'd actually deter others who made stupid mistakes like this one from coming forward and attempting to fix their mistakes.

Now apply your reasoning to non-Bitcoin crimes, like burglary.

OK. Burgling someplace without leaving a (usable) trace is pretty risk free (albeit more difficult than stealing bitcoins) - others getting jailed for burgling won't deter a good enough burglar. If, OTOH, a burglar admits to his misdeeds and tries to fix them, throwing them in jail won't be an incentive for others to follow their example and come forward and fix anything.

That easy enough for you to understand?

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