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Author Topic: [ANN] Whirlwind.money | ⚡No Fee⚡ | Ultimate Privacy | Anonymity Mining 12% APR🔥  (Read 12443 times)
sam00
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August 11, 2023, 12:44:31 PM
 #441

Maybe it's better to turn off the "mining rewards" as an additional feature, at least until they implement it better and obviously, it's not set up well. This is not crucial for a mixer service it only unnecessarily casts doubt on the functionality of the whole mixing service.

As GazetaBitcoin calculated, there is a significant amount that can be "saved" with only 2000 satoshi per user, but why would anyone do it and think in such a way, when the very idea of staking came from the owner of a whirlwind? Just stop this option and continue working on mixing only.

The idea behind the anonymity mining campaign was to build a strong anonymity set and therefore make their main service (mixing) more attractive.
The fact that the implementation is somewhat lacking in user experience for some people doesn't negate the fact that it is indeed helping the anonymity set.
It is simply and incentive to deposit and also hold coins on the site while the campaign is running.

If they stop giving mining rewards, then perhaps the Anonymity set will decrease, as there will be no reason to leave your coins in a central mixer that may run away with your money and you will not get a return through it.

If I am not mistaken then the anonymity set can not decrease. Even if they stop the campaign, there will still be said 567 deposits and that number will not decrease. From that point on, every withdrawal made on the site could originate from one or multiple of the 567 deposits. Stopping the campaign would probably lead to people withdrawing their coins and the anonymity set increasing slower but it could not decrease.
Every time a block is mined, a certain amount of BTC (called the subsidy) is created out of thin air and given to the miner. The subsidy halves every four years and will reach 0 in about 130 years.
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August 12, 2023, 12:03:39 AM
Merited by hugeblack (10), LoyceV (6), dkbit98 (1)
 #442

Regarding the delay in replying, I alerted them to the necessity of having an active member (if they do not have time,) these things will not cost them much (less than 200 dollars per month) but their effect will be better.

In addition to that, hiring an active person here to answer frequently asked questions and send problems directly to them if they do not have time to keep this ANN updated. After all, the service is still new and the support team’s delay in responding is not an act of a service that wants to gain trust and needs trust.



[1] https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/address/bc1qf8h5k6sash8007vpesymxkw2xsg5d0r3j4l5vmcrwpz2pqu66fjstzgd3r

I don't think it's an issue of money, anyone running a mixing service or any other service should be able to afford a few thousand dollars a month for a good support team, the problem is the training itself, anyone who works as a support member in Whirlwind needs to understand it inside out, or else, their job would be a matter of relaying messages to an actual person who has the answers, and that won't help much.

My guess is that given that Whirlwind is still new, it's probably only a couple devs on the team, and the resources are pretty limited if they focus on building, they can't respond to support messages or be active on form, and the opposite is correct, but good projects need good management, it's not enough to have the best software technical wise while lacking customer support.

The problem with most projects is that they grow faster than anticipated, you start a small project by yourself or with one or two friends, you write the code, test it, publish it, and then it turns out that in order to keep this live and running, you actually need 10 more people, but those are not ready, so now you and your one or two friends have even more things to do.

You go from just "develop and test" to develop, test, maintain, support, and train and find those 10 people, so overall, things get worse at the second phase of most projects.

This being a custodial service where trust is the code of it all, customer support is arguably the most important element of the whole project, If I send my coins and something goes wrong, I would want answers ASAP, it doesn't matter if my coins are stuck because of a small bug that the result of a huge improvement you added to the system, or because you migrated to a better and stronger server, as a customer I will panic and think my funds are lost forever, and it will be very hard for me to trust the service again.

Auto-Response emails are good, at least you get a confirmation that your email got there.

Quote
Hello, we got your request, your support ticket number is 1234, and we will get back to you ASAP, thanks.

This buys you 1-2 days, right after that, a human response is a must, even if it doesn't solve the issue when it's complicated
Quote
Hello, we looked at your problem, and this needs to be checked by our tech team, I forwarded the issue to them, and will get back to you ASAP
As long as there is active communication, it would be fine if the problem takes a whole week to resolve, it's MUCH better than getting no response at all and the problem is resolved in 3 days for instance.

My take on Whirlwind is that at least the person who uses the bitcointalk account is indeed very intelligent, the concept and the idea of the mixer are pretty unique and interesting and have great potential, however, the overall management is pretty bad, lack of support, slow Email response, being inactive on the forum -- all fall under "bad management".

My advice to Whirlwind is to start seriously working on the support aspect ASAP.





 
 

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August 12, 2023, 12:20:15 AM
 #443

With what has happened recently, it might be a good idea for them to start considering the option (or at least something similar). If the end goal would be to bring a better customer service experience, then it would go a long way to achieving that. Paying a small amount to have an active member in the forum would alleviate some the concerns members could have (if answers were posted sooner).

Regarding the delay in replying, I alerted them to the necessity of having an active member (if they do not have time,) these things will not cost them much (less than 200 dollars per month) but their effect will be better.

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August 12, 2023, 07:46:22 AM
 #444


If I am not mistaken then the anonymity set can not decrease. Even if they stop the campaign, there will still be said 567 deposits and that number will not decrease. From that point on, every withdrawal made on the site could originate from one or multiple of the 567 deposits. Stopping the campaign would probably lead to people withdrawing their coins and the anonymity set increasing slower but it could not decrease.
According to FAQ[1] anonymity set is the number of deposits from which your withdrawal will potentially originate.
it is a reflection of the number of deposits that may be the input of your transaction, and if the number of depositors decreases, then the Anonymity set should decrease, so the stability of the number with a small number of depositors is misleading. Generally, we have to wait for confirmation from the campaign manager.

[1] https://whirlwind.money/

My take on Whirlwind is that at least the person who uses the bitcointalk account is indeed very intelligent, the concept and the idea of the mixer are pretty unique and interesting and have great potential, however, the overall management is pretty bad, lack of support, slow Email response, being inactive on the forum -- all fall under "bad management".
TheQuin is a case in point, it wouldn't be hard to find someone on the forum who has a good knowledge of how whirlwind works.

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August 12, 2023, 08:01:16 AM
 #445

I don't think it's an issue of money, anyone running a mixing service or any other service should be able to afford a few thousand dollars a month for a good support team, the problem is the training itself, anyone who works as a support member in Whirlwind needs to understand it inside out, or else, their job would be a matter of relaying messages to an actual person who has the answers, and that won't help much.
A support employee is useless if he doesn't have access to actually solve problems, but an anonymous service can't just give such access to any "support employee". There's a lot of trust involved.

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sam00
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August 12, 2023, 09:20:55 AM
 #446

According to FAQ[1] anonymity set is the number of deposits from which your withdrawal will potentially originate.
it is a reflection of the number of deposits that may be the input of your transaction, and if the number of depositors decreases, then the Anonymity set should decrease, so the stability of the number with a small number of depositors is misleading. Generally, we have to wait for confirmation from the campaign manager.

[1] https://whirlwind.money/
highlighted the important part

See even if 90% of the users withdraw their deposits to whirlwind and you decide to deposit 1mBTC after that, you wait 1 week and then withdraw again, your withdrawal could still originate from any of the deposits made beforehand. As long as there is some balance left in the holding wallet (which will always be as whirlwind also holds coins in there), any withdrawal could originate from any (or multiple) of the deposits made beforehand.
Therefore the anonymity set can not decrease, it can only increase and by being able to merge notes and withdraw parts of the deposits, with every deposit it becomes exponentially more anonymous.



Regarding the support discussion, I would be interested about how many support requests they actually receive. As of right now there's only a few deposits each day at max so there shouldn't be a flood of support requests.



Has anyone made a withdrawal yesterday or today?
I withdrew a couple houndred dollars yesterday, chose a delay of 0 hours but the transaction has not been initiated yet.
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August 12, 2023, 11:25:02 AM
 #447


Has anyone made a withdrawal yesterday or today?
I withdrew a couple houndred dollars yesterday, chose a delay of 0 hours but the transaction has not been initiated yet.
Please update us on this.
This sounds extremely weird. You do still see the satoshi's in your note, don't you?

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August 12, 2023, 11:31:54 AM
Merited by dkbit98 (1)
 #448

Has anyone made a withdrawal yesterday or today?
I withdrew a couple houndred dollars yesterday, chose a delay of 0 hours but the transaction has not been initiated yet.
My last withdrawal was on the 9th, got the coins.

Looking at an explorer, the last outgoing transactions were made on that date: https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/addresses/btc/bc1qf8h5k6sash8007vpesymxkw2xsg5d0r3j4l5vmcrwpz2pqu66fjstzgd3r

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August 12, 2023, 11:41:53 AM
 #449

A support employee is useless if he doesn't have access to actually solve problems, but an anonymous service can't just give such access to any "support employee". There's a lot of trust involved.
At some point, blinded bearer certificates will be used, and mixer will be decentralized. there will be more than one member managing the multi-signature escrow address, not finding a trusted person to manage technical support is a big problem.

In addition, it is not useless, it will reduce the burden on admin/s and organize all requests for them. admin job will be to respond to support requests instead of reviewing messages and responding to them individually.

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August 12, 2023, 06:40:40 PM
 #450

Has anyone made a withdrawal yesterday or today?

Yep, today at the begining of the afternoon.
No transactions detected yet

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sam00
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August 12, 2023, 06:49:54 PM
 #451

Please update us on this.
This sounds extremely weird. You do still see the satoshi's in your note, don't you?

No, the Note balance has updatet but there has been no transaction so far. Something seems stuck.

My last withdrawal was on the 9th, got the coins.

Looking at an explorer, the last outgoing transactions were made on that date: https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/addresses/btc/bc1qf8h5k6sash8007vpesymxkw2xsg5d0r3j4l5vmcrwpz2pqu66fjstzgd3r

Thank you for that information! As I made my withdrawal on the 11th, I guess that something is stuck :/

Has anyone made a withdrawal yesterday or today?

Yep, today at the begining of the afternoon.
No transactions detected yet
thank you aswell...

I'm not sure if I should contact support as that seems to affect all users.

I hope that @whirlwindmoney already knows about this and won't be sending in a support email in this case.
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Meh.


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August 12, 2023, 06:56:08 PM
 #452

Send a support email @sam00, just in case. I have also sent one notifying them about this but won't hurt if you do, too.

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August 12, 2023, 11:26:14 PM
 #453

Send a support email @sam00, just in case. I have also sent one notifying them about this but won't hurt if you do, too.

I have sent them an email now aswell, I just didn't want to cause more work for them initially..
I also told them that they won't have to reply to my email in this case and to rather reply here on bitcointalk for everyone to get the update on the situation Smiley
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August 14, 2023, 05:31:53 AM
 #454

Has anyone made a withdrawal yesterday or today?
I withdrew a couple houndred dollars yesterday, chose a delay of 0 hours but the transaction has not been initiated yet.
I made a withdrawal of 0.025 BTC yesterday afternoon (like you with 0 hours delay) and so far nothing. Did you get the money, or email reply yet?

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sam00
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August 14, 2023, 06:31:13 AM
 #455

I made a withdrawal of 0.025 BTC yesterday afternoon (like you with 0 hours delay) and so far nothing. Did you get the money, or email reply yet?

The last outgoing transcation is still from the 9th August:
https://www.blockchain.com/de/explorer/addresses/btc/bc1qf8h5k6sash8007vpesymxkw2xsg5d0r3j4l5vmcrwpz2pqu66fjstzgd3r

I have not received a reply to my e-mail (I asked them to reply here on bitcointalk though).
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August 14, 2023, 08:33:25 AM
Merited by n0nce (1)
 #456

So, to summarize (and correct me if I got anything wrong):
  • The website isn't profitable (yet)
  • Deposits are working
  • The website claims to pay a very high 12% APR on deposits
  • The daily awards aren't always being added
  • Withdrawals stopped working 5 days ago
  • The signature campaign payments happen off-chain and thus can't be withdrawn now
  • User whirlwindmoney hasn't been here for more than a month
  • Support doesn't respond to inquiries
No matter what the reason is, this looks bad.

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examplens
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August 14, 2023, 10:16:55 AM
 #457

So, to summarize (and correct me if I got anything wrong):
  • The website isn't profitable (yet)

I would add that the clearnet website has been offline for quite a long time now. Maybe it's not crucial considering that the .onion site is online, but it still seems neglected.

Quote
Withdrawals stopped working 5 days ago

It's a good thing that minerjones keeps $40k in escrow, so there is a possibility for forum users to be compensated. Maybe he can confirm the current status of those funds.[/list]

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August 14, 2023, 10:34:53 AM
 #458

    It's a good thing that minerjones keeps $40k in escrow, so there is a possibility for forum users to be compensated. Maybe he can confirm the current status of those funds.[/list]
    Deposits to the multisig addy in the last few days alone are more than that in just the last 5 days. I just (only now) realize that makes the escrow partially useless: if there would be an exit scam, it would be trivially easy to fake losses to claim back the escrow as a victim.

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    JollyGood
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    August 14, 2023, 10:59:16 AM
     #459

    This is worrying because tomorrow is the day signature campaign participants are due to be paid. I hope everything will be fine (and a simple post or update will make it easier for worried members to rest).

    Keeping that aside for a moment, we do not know if the problem is a withdrawal issue is down to signature campaign participants trying to withdraw funds or whether clients using the website for mixing are sending funds but are getting nothing back. There do not seem to be claims of the latter therefore it could be confined to signature campaign participants only. It still would not make it right or acceptable of-course but it would narrow the problem.

    I did read an earlier post where they were going to roll out updates therefore this could have possibly coincided with it. Either way, if they have not replied to emails and requests to post here then it is will mean signature campaign participants will remain confused and anxious.

    I think regardless of what we think has happened, Whirlwind should at the very least post here as soon as possible to explain the facts and what they will do to rectify whatever has gone wrong.

    I made a withdrawal of 0.025 BTC yesterday afternoon (like you with 0 hours delay) and so far nothing. Did you get the money, or email reply yet?

    The last outgoing transcation is still from the 9th August:
    https://www.blockchain.com/de/explorer/addresses/btc/bc1qf8h5k6sash8007vpesymxkw2xsg5d0r3j4l5vmcrwpz2pqu66fjstzgd3r

    I have not received a reply to my e-mail (I asked them to reply here on bitcointalk though).

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    GazetaBitcoin
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    August 14, 2023, 10:59:54 AM
     #460

      It's a good thing that minerjones keeps $40k in escrow, so there is a possibility for forum users to be compensated. Maybe he can confirm the current status of those funds.[/list]
      Deposits to the multisig addy in the last few days alone are more than that in just the last 5 days. I just (only now) realize that makes the escrow partially useless: if there would be an exit scam, it would be trivially easy to fake losses to claim back the escrow as a victim.

      At same time, the funds for escrow were for the review campaign, which is ended. So it's possible that MJ returned the funds already. At same time, if he still keeps the funds, the most important question is where does he store these funds? -- in a personal wallet or in a "personal" note offered by WhirlWind? I don't see anywhere the escrow address used. If the funds are also kept on the mixer their utility is none.

      At same time, Hhampuz may (or may not) still hold some of the campaign funds.

      Payments for the reviews will be handled by me, from the signature campaign wallet (which I'm in control of).

      However, this may have changed after WhirlWind switched to make the payments directly to notes.

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