[ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11

[Chargin]

Therefore; Before we spent more time in the ethical of giving up your password or not. Let move forward. Let's make the password optional. Name, email , mintpal deposit address , amount of coins , comment section for additional info. screen shot of your mintpalv2 page. If there is not enough information to validate your claim then you can offer your password to further prove such claim.

We also need to figure out how to approach the timeline:

How long do we keep the claims fill forms open. (while it would be ideal to leave it as long as possible it wouldn't be fair to the ones that filled it and waiting for their coins )
What to do if the wallet coins are less then the claims
What to do if every proven claim got their coins but there are left overs
Do we all agree that as long as the proposed steps are followed , then neither the people helping out nor the community should be help accountable if some one shows up months later and has undeniable proof that some of those coins belonged to them but the coins have already been distributed away.


Hope you all get the gist of this. There are few of us scrambling with what we got here , trying to come up with the best solution to this. we would love nothing more then to give everyone their coins back. But we have to come up with a unified agreeable solution with some 'rules" to prevent any of us getting into trouble.

I completely support the process which is being undertaken.. I had issue with only one small part of it (ie the collection of passwords)

moving forward I would suggest the following:

a terms sheet be drawn up.. where each person upon submitting their claim must accept the terms as agreed by all participants.

payment by increments and not lump sums.
for example.. we institute a regime of say 10 rounds where each participant is paid 10% of their claim per round. (this is a very easy thing to do for the person writing the algorithm they need only loop 10 times and make the payout 10% of the claimed amount)

this would mean that in the first round everyone gets 10% of their claim, the second round another 10% (20% total) and so on and so on until the coins run out.
this would ensure that everybody gets most of their coins back and nobody is left out completely.

the way that Mintpal V2 (the people at moolah) did their distribution was to pay people on a first come first serve basis was a complete disaster with hundreds of people claiming they didn't get any coins back at all..in the case of DRK and BTC the coins ran out way before all the claims were processed so people like me who were unable to update their BTC and DRK addresses because of a stupid bug in their own system were completely left hanging.

in order to avoid this kind of situation happening again,  payment by increments will mean that the coins are distributed more fairly to everyone... it also means that latecomers can still be added to the list and have some coins distributed back to them accordingly without having to readjust the algorithm or do any additional calculations.

I have been a software developer for 14 years and I have to say that the way that the people handled this disaster at moolah was completely amateurish and irresponsible and I would encourage everyone to remember the names of the people involved and try to stay well clear of them in the future.

10% per round is a good suggestion, however that will be a lot of work and will increase the timeframe for returning all of the Karma. What do you propose the timeframe be? After 4 weeks then every 2 weeks for a total of 22 weeks or how long? Everyone please say if you think this is a good idea or not, if you like it but not the timeframe I just gave please suggest a new one.

For the people that are suggesting relying on less than v2 username proof. Are you suggesting we either simply use v1 balances (100% provable, some people will lose 100% of their Karma) or a lower standard of evidence to prove v2 balances? (50% provable, everyone may lose a % of their Karma) What guidelines do you suggest the committee follow to determine if somebody should be paid out or not? Screenshot of v2 and something else? Do you propose that the v2 password not be a requirement or not be asked for at all? Please acknowledge you are aware people may defraud a system where a lower level of evidence is required, guaranteeing people will miss out on some of their Karma. Are people meant to prove/submit a claim for their v2 balances or just go with the best claim they can make? Please be aware of how much work you are suggesting the committee do to prove each claim. If you provide a detailed plan I will put it to a vote.

Everyone don't forget that at the moment you've lost 100% of your Karma on Mintpal. If you get 50% back from this process you should be very grateful to the person making the transactions with the wallet and the people on the committee.

Please starting nominating yourselves to be on the committee (3 positions) or if you'd like to nominate yourself for being the person distributing the Karma and holding the wallet (1 position).

For people that think any information is being sent to me or are suggesting changes please read my entire post including the FAQ before commenting.

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[Alphi]

10% per round is a good suggestion, however that will be a lot of work and will increase the timeframe for returning all of the Karma. What do you propose the timeframe be? After 4 weeks then every 2 weeks for a total of 22 weeks or how long? Everyone please say if you think this is a good idea or not, if you like it but not the timeframe I just gave please suggest a new one.

Chargin, if the processing were done manually I agree it would be a lot more work.. if its done via a script it really isn't much work at all.. you just have a list of accounts that have been verified by whatever criteria is agreed by the community and then loop through it 10 times instead of once. you could even write the script in such a way that it just does one loop every time a button is pressed so all that anyone would need to do is press it 10 times (or until the coins run out). they would then be able to distribute coins once a day once a week or whenever is most suitable.

For the people that are suggesting relying on less than v2 username proof. Are you suggesting we either simply use v1 balances (100% provable, some people will lose 100% of their Karma) or a lower standard of evidence to prove v2 balances?

I think most people are  happy to go with the V1 balances. Using the V2 balances seems like a lot more work for very little extra benefit. I was one of the first people who was able to actually trade on V2 and as socoban said (and I agree) there were very few trades done before the whole thing blew up in everyone's faces.

Everyone don't forget that at the moment you've lost 100% of your Karma on Mintpal. If you get 50% back from this process you should be very grateful to the person making the transactions with the wallet and the people on the committee.

I personally am more than happy to give a percentage of coins to the people doing the actual work to get the coins back.

[easteagle13]

Okay, everyone.

Thanks for your input and suggestions, we will surely consider them in the final decision regarding this matter.

Please trust that we will do everything in our capacity to make this thing go thru and as secure as possible for everyone.

Hold your horses and take a deep breath.

Let us all wait patiently.

-east

[Alphi]

 22 weeks ?? WTF? Are you kidding ME?> 

22 weeks? care to explain where you got that from?

[Chargin]

 22 weeks ?? WTF? Are you kidding ME?> 

22 weeks? care to explain where you got that from?

My request for a more detailed proposal if it were to be done 10% at a time. No support has been given to this, it isn't currently the plan. "Ctrl F" 22 weeks on this page.

Current alteration proposals (we might hold a vote on) that have been supported are:
1. Use v1 balances instead of v2 balances to avoid the requirement of giving v2 password. This proposal would also mean there is no Round 1 and 2. There would be no adjudication on v2 balances, it is v1 balances only.

I haven't seen any other detailed proposals with everything spelt out. Once details have been fleshed out I will add them to the list above.

Chargin.

[okman007]

ugly logo.

[Alphi]

 22 weeks ?? WTF? Are you kidding ME?>  

22 weeks? care to explain where you got that from?

My request for a more detailed proposal if it were to be done 10% at a time. No support has been given to this, it isn't currently the plan. "Ctrl F" 22 weeks on this page.

Current alteration proposals (we might hold a vote on) that have been supported are:
1. Use v1 balances instead of v2 balances to avoid the requirement of giving v2 password. This proposal would also mean there is no Round 1 and 2. There would be no adjudication on v2 balances, it is v1 balances only.

I haven't seen any other detailed proposals with everything spelt out. Once details have been fleshed out I will add them to the list above.

Chargin.

oh I see now he was quoting your post.
I agree... its just an idea to allow for a fairer distribution of coins..
@Facira,  there is no set time frame.. it could be 10 days.. or 10 weeks or 10 months or any number in-between. the point I was making was that if we set it up so that the coins can be distributed in stages then its much easier and more flexible to adjust the time frame...

as for 22 weeks... if you think you would get your coins back from moolah in less than 22 weeks i've got news for you, they probably wont be releasing any more coins until the court case is resolved and that could take years. so 22 weeks was just an example.

my own personal opinion would be that once a week would be enough to keep most people happy. so you would get half your coins back in just over a month. most of them back by the end of the second month. that gives people who do not speak English enough time to figure out what is going on before the clock runs out.

[soltantgris]

Last time I post about it here - it's up to you guys, but instead of trying to get ''perfect'' solution, why don't you just push for an actual realistic solution ?  Steps are simple to send back coins using V1 DB.  Sure it is not perfect, but its 90%+ accurate since few trades had been made on V2.  We are doing it now for Fluttercoin, and it's an easy process:

- We sent an email to each Mintpal customers with a V1 FLT balance, asking for a withdraw address.
- We send coins back.
- Repeat.

For us, there is a gap between wallet balance and users total balance, so we send balance minus 8.95%.  As I said, its not perfect, but it is 100% better then most of other coins in crypto, so we accept the little loss, and move on. 

Asking for password, waiting, round 1 - 2 etc is just a pain in the ass for whoever have to handle it, and may even get him legal problem later.

We sent back 20 000 000 FLT out of 58 000 000, I would say it's a good start.  We are now sending another email.  And as a community, we decided that if it was unclaimed coins, we would just let them sit forever.  We don't have any right to use it, or to delete it.  So if ever we face some legal question, we will have every single proof or transactions we did, + all the remaining coins. 

As I said, up to you, but it's so simple that way. 

Good luck u guys !

[easteagle13]

Last time I post about it here - it's up to you guys, but instead of trying to get ''perfect'' solution, why don't you just push for an actual realistic solution ?  Steps are simple to send back coins using V1 DB.  Sure it is not perfect, but its 90%+ accurate since few trades had been made on V2.  We are doing it now for Fluttercoin, and it's an easy process:

- We sent an email to each Mintpal customers with a V1 FLT balance, asking for a withdraw address.
- We send coins back.
- Repeat.

For us, there is a gap between wallet balance and users total balance, so we send balance minus 8.95%.  As I said, its not perfect, but it is 100% better then most of other coins in crypto, so we accept the little loss, and move on. 

Asking for password, waiting, round 1 - 2 etc is just a pain in the ass for whoever have to handle it, and may even get him legal problem later.

We sent back 20 000 000 FLT out of 58 000 000, I would say it's a good start.  We are now sending another email.  And as a community, we decided that if it was unclaimed coins, we would just let them sit forever.  We don't have any right to use it, or to delete it.  So if ever we face some legal question, we will have every single proof or transactions we did, + all the remaining coins. 

As I said, up to you, but it's so simple that way. 

Good luck u guys !

Thanks for a nice suggestion.

[Alphi]

Last time I post about it here - it's up to you guys, but instead of trying to get ''perfect'' solution, why don't you just push for an actual realistic solution ?  Steps are simple to send back coins using V1 DB.  Sure it is not perfect, but its 90%+ accurate since few trades had been made on V2.  We are doing it now for Fluttercoin, and it's an easy process:

- We sent an email to each Mintpal customers with a V1 FLT balance, asking for a withdraw address.
- We send coins back.
- Repeat.

For us, there is a gap between wallet balance and users total balance, so we send balance minus 8.95%.  As I said, its not perfect, but it is 100% better then most of other coins in crypto, so we accept the little loss, and move on.  

Asking for password, waiting, round 1 - 2 etc is just a pain in the ass for whoever have to handle it, and may even get him legal problem later.

We sent back 20 000 000 FLT out of 58 000 000, I would say it's a good start.  We are now sending another email.  And as a community, we decided that if it was unclaimed coins, we would just let them sit forever.  We don't have any right to use it, or to delete it.  So if ever we face some legal question, we will have every single proof or transactions we did, + all the remaining coins.  

As I said, up to you, but it's so simple that way.  

Good luck u guys !

bottom line is.. if the people doing the processing feel that it is too complicated to do 10 rounds of withdraw then I have no objection.
I explained how it could be done very easily, but ultimately beggars cannot be choosers.
If there are in fact more coins than the coins owned by people who respond to a maillot then awesome but just remember that any mass mail out from an unknown email sender will likely go straight into peoples spam inboxes.

however, whatever the majority wants I'm more than happy to go along with.

[mouseman]

Please don't assume that most people are happy to go with V1 balances only.
I have 0 Karma on V1.
I have 100 million Karma on v2 and can prove with a screenshot.

For the people that are suggesting relying on less than v2 username proof. Are you suggesting we either simply use v1 balances (100% provable, some people will lose 100% of their Karma) or a lower standard of evidence to prove v2 balances?

I think most people are  happy to go with the V1 balances. Using the V2 balances seems like a lot more work for very little extra benefit. I was one of the first people who was able to actually trade on V2 and as socoban said (and I agree) there were very few trades done before the whole thing blew up in everyone's faces.

[socoban]

Please don't assume that.
I have 0 Karma on V1.
I have 100 million Karma on v2 and can prove with a screenshot.

Screenshot is  not a proof, only V2 password is (Anybody can create fake screenshot in few seconds).  I agree with you, fair is V2 balance, V1 is less fair. If we can use V2, than do it, or at least let people from V2 proof by their password. Reverting to V1 is simple and wrong, if we have an option for V2 balance check.

[Chargin]

Last time I post about it here - it's up to you guys, but instead of trying to get ''perfect'' solution, why don't you just push for an actual realistic solution ?  Steps are simple to send back coins using V1 DB.  Sure it is not perfect, but its 90%+ accurate since few trades had been made on V2.  We are doing it now for Fluttercoin, and it's an easy process:

- We sent an email to each Mintpal customers with a V1 FLT balance, asking for a withdraw address.
- We send coins back.
- Repeat.

For us, there is a gap between wallet balance and users total balance, so we send balance minus 8.95%.  As I said, its not perfect, but it is 100% better then most of other coins in crypto, so we accept the little loss, and move on.  

Asking for password, waiting, round 1 - 2 etc is just a pain in the ass for whoever have to handle it, and may even get him legal problem later.

We sent back 20 000 000 FLT out of 58 000 000, I would say it's a good start.  We are now sending another email.  And as a community, we decided that if it was unclaimed coins, we would just let them sit forever.  We don't have any right to use it, or to delete it.  So if ever we face some legal question, we will have every single proof or transactions we did, + all the remaining coins.  

As I said, up to you, but it's so simple that way.  

Good luck u guys !

Thanks for your input. We looked at what FLT did and decided the community had the right to decide how their funds are distributed. There is no reason we can't try to do it better than FLT, so you'll be better than 100% except for 1. "90%+ accurate" when comparing total values isn't much of a consolation for people that end up with 0% of their holdings if they only bought in v2. It is however up to the community and we may end up doing the same thing you did.

The site and information is currently being gathered, it doesn't hurt at all to discuss the matter here while that occurs.

Doing it the best we can is good Karma after all...

Chargin.

[crocko]

Hello !

By V1 do you mean the version of Mintpal before the Moolah ?
or
the all KARM mined before the fork to X11 ?

I had ~14,000,000 KARM mined when the algo was scrypt. I left this amount on Minpal because I wasn't sure about the new wallet for X11.
Can you include me on the list, in order to recover my coins ?

[Chargin]

Hello !

By V1 do you mean the version of Mintpal before the Moolah ?
or
the all KARM mined before the fork to X11 ?

Before Moolah took over Mintpal and launched the new platform.

Chargin.

[DannyTom]

Wait a minute...I haven't paid attention to Karma since the Poloni delisting a while back and rather than catch up on 150 pages of posts, Karma isn't scrypt anymore and all my old coins are garbage?

[socoban]

Wait a minute...I haven't paid attention to Karma since the Poloni delisting a while back and rather than catch up on 150 pages of posts, Karma isn't scrypt anymore and all my old coins are garbage?

Your old coins are OK, unless you did not mine them on abandoned X11 blockchain. If you got them before block 255,000 those coins are fine. (Karm switched to X11 in August)

[soltantgris]

Whatever you choose - I want to let you know that massmailing using mailchimp avoid spam box !

Go Karma Go, Id more the happy if you do better then FLT - a good action is a good action. 

See ya

[karmala]

Listen to east, who, socoban, alphi and chargin. They will act in your best interest. Strong characters. They are still here. Karma has intrinsic value beyond its price. I really should buy some more

think about a trust fund for people who will loose Karma during the process. That would resemble Karma spirit. Love you guys

[karmala]

@scryptminer:

where are your forums?