[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[MoneroMooo]

Right now anything with more than 2 decimal places cannot be mixed with a mixin over 1 and this is the cause of these problems. Asking exchanges to use higher mixin levels is doomed to failure without addressing this mantissa issue at the protocol level.

As a stopgap, I've started looking at a simplewallet command to sweep up dust outputs in a tx to yourself, which should give you a nice round output as the cost of the tx fee.

[e-coinomist]

^Isn't it a POS coin with no other possible world uses than that? Why do we need a different coin for that single purpose?

Yeah, gridcoin exists, but I kinda get what you're saying and may want to expand on it.

One interesting option for Monero (because its one of the few (if not the only) CPU + GPU mineable coins thats worth a damn right now), would be for mining software to switch from Monero to Boinc... and yes, this hybrid BOINC client would be coupled with some type of Monero payment.

So, say you have a rig that pulls in 10 kh/s. You normally mine monero, and there's an estimated rate of return Y (based on hashrate and network diff). However, your Monero-Boinc hybrid client detects that there's a paying job on the Boinc network, with a guaranteed payout of X Monero. In your hybrid mining client, you have a setting somewhere that says "switch to BOINC if X > Y" or one that says " if X / Y >= 1.3". If the job satisfies these requirements, your hardware switches to folding some protein or running a Monte Carlo sandwich. When the jobs done, you switch back to Monero.

Interesting. Could get BOINCers into Monero, and could get scientists into Monero. You know how long it takes things on ROBETTA to run? The damn cue is over a month right now. And it has a cap of 1000 amino acids. WTF?

The WTF chill creeping my skin - I get almost anytime thinking about POW. Power ... wasted.

Well BOINC cannot reduce that, it's still electricity transformed into heat, just with some little additional output of scientific knowledge going alongside.
My practice looks like ballancing 2 threads for XMR mining and 1~2 threads into BOINC on a quadcore, plus 1 instance of a GRC wallet syncing somewhere (not needed to run that with redundance). That bottleneck, 4 threads would not produce more hashrate than 2 are capable of.

Inside the BOINC network, all calculations are done several times again, by different people. Just to assure statistical compareability. Checking the outputs, and if they match, the calculation should have been valid. It is that kind of computing work that does not immediately solve into a simply quotation.

On [GRC] they deliberately have choosen POS as a power consumption reduced mechanism for guaranteeing the blockchain security. Former algorithm was scrypt and that reduced the ballance down onto almost 50% electricity still evaporating for blockchain security.

I doubt XMR fits in there nicely. Very different worlds.

[Quicken]

^Isn't it a POS coin with no other possible world uses than that? Why do we need a different coin for that single purpose?

Yeah, gridcoin exists, but I kinda get what you're saying and may want to expand on it.

One interesting option for Monero (because its one of the few (if not the only) CPU + GPU mineable coins thats worth a damn right now), would be for mining software to switch from Monero to Boinc... and yes, this hybrid BOINC client would be coupled with some type of Monero payment.

So, say you have a rig that pulls in 10 kh/s. You normally mine monero, and there's an estimated rate of return Y (based on hashrate and network diff). However, your Monero-Boinc hybrid client detects that there's a paying job on the Boinc network, with a guaranteed payout of X Monero. In your hybrid mining client, you have a setting somewhere that says "switch to BOINC if X > Y" or one that says " if X / Y >= 1.3". If the job satisfies these requirements, your hardware switches to folding some protein or running a Monte Carlo sandwich. When the jobs done, you switch back to Monero.

Interesting. Could get BOINCers into Monero, and could get scientists into Monero. You know how long it takes things on ROBETTA to run? The damn cue is over a month right now. And it has a cap of 1000 amino acids. WTF?

The WTF chill creeping my skin - I get almost anytime thinking about POW. Power ... wasted.

Well BOINC cannot reduce that, it's still electricity transformed into heat, just with some little additional output of scientific knowledge going alongside.
My practice looks like ballancing 2 threads for XMR mining and 1~2 threads into BOINC on a quadcore, plus 1 instance of a GRC wallet syncing somewhere (not needed to run that with redundance). That bottleneck, 4 threads would not produce more hashrate than 2 are capable of.

Inside the BOINC network, all calculations are done several times again, by different people. Just to assure statistical compareability. Checking the outputs, and if they match, the calculation should have been valid. It is that kind of computing work that does not immediately solve into a simply quotation.

On [GRC] they deliberately have choosen POS as a power consumption reduced mechanism for guaranteeing the blockchain security. Former algorithm was scrypt and that reduced the ballance down onto almost 50% electricity still evaporating for blockchain security.

I doubt XMR fits in there nicely. Very different worlds.

Computing heat does not need to be wasted heat. See this for an interesting modern idea:
http://www.nerdalize.com/

By placing high performance servers in homes Nerdalize creates highly distributed compute cloud without the overhead cost of conventional cloud and co-location solutions. This creates a triple-win where sustainable computing power becomes an affordable commodity, homes are heated for free and emissions are drastically reduced!

I would love to see this approach adopted in crypto mining.
Q

[Globb0]

Great cloud. Only you can only use it on cold days. 

[cAPSLOCK]

Hmm, I suggest we leave out US patriotic mentality and words like "founding fathers" and "constitution". Crypto and P2P are about anarchism, questioning every kind of authority, so I'd leave out every reference to nation states.   

You may not want him to print his ideals on crypto.  I understand that.  But in honesty I don't want your ideals to be the point either.  And it is not because I do not share some of them.

Cryptocurrencies will benefit crypto-anarchists, yes. This is by definition.  And there is no doubt they have the potential to interrupt the power of states.  But I have a more inclusive view of the power and use of cryptocurrencies.  And this movement is no the isolated playground of left-libertarians.

Also, to say they are about "questioning every kind of authority" is very short sighted.  The will form new authority structures themselves.  In fact this is the turn this conversation has just taken with the idea posed in the post we are talking about (the scheduled fork-dates).

My 2XRMR...

[xa4]

Hmm, I suggest we leave out US patriotic mentality and words like "founding fathers" and "constitution". Crypto and P2P are about anarchism, questioning every kind of authority, so I'd leave out every reference to nation states.   

You may not want him to print his ideals on crypto.  I understand that.  But in honesty I don't want your ideals to be the point either.  And it is not because I do not share some of them.

Cryptocurrencies will benefit crypto-anarchists, yes. This is by definition.  And there is no doubt they have the potential to interrupt the power of states.  But I have a more inclusive view of the power and use of cryptocurrencies.  And this movement is no the isolated playground of left-libertarians.

Also, to say they are about "questioning every kind of authority" is very short sighted.  The will form new authority structures themselves.  In fact this is the turn this conversation has just taken with the idea posed in the post we are talking about (the scheduled fork-dates).

My 2XRMR...

I follow you. GingerAle did a better job expressing my concerns :

I think the consensus mechanism would cover that, no? I mean, if a dev team changed the emission, we just wouldn't mine that branch.... right?

Why do you think "questioning every kind of authority" is short sighted ? The word 'authority' is key here. No man/woman or group should be able to impose something by decree, but this isn't the case anyway with decentralized systems.

[5w00p]

On Proof-of-Work:

1) Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change state.

2) If work is performed, than by definition, energy is not "wasted."

3) The work performed is of benefit to the network, which is of benefit to the users.

4) At least in some places at certain times of the year on some number of days, the thermal energy from mining devices is of benefit to the people and/or animals
    existing in the dwelling that houses the machines; ie it heats an area and the heat is wanted in those cases.

5) Proof-of-Stake sucks.

[medusa13]

i would welcome the social contract in form of a contract/document/post whatever, but its not a must(i feel fine without it) and would be more like a marketing idea, still i like it.
But if there are things that are set in stone(which there are), why not collect and publish them somewhere in concentrated form?

i think right now only the hardcore followers know all the details about this contract. but we are proud of our concensus, so why not make it more visible

[Johnny Mnemonic]

The WTF chill creeping my skin - I get almost anytime thinking about POW. Power ... wasted.

A major misunderstanding regarding Proof of Work is that the work is "wasted." In reality, you have to consume one resource to create another. Fiat money "printing" only works because the system is centralized and the value is legally upheld. I have serious doubts that PoS can work in a decentralized system.

[G2M]

The WTF chill creeping my skin - I get almost anytime thinking about POW. Power ... wasted.

A major misunderstanding regarding Proof of Work is that the work is "wasted." In reality, you have to consume one resource to create another. Fiat money "printing" only works because the system is centralized and the value is legally upheld. I have serious doubts that PoS can work in a decentralized system.

As far as wasted energy goes, consider that a crypto-centric money system would have far less overhead than, say a banking system. Paypal, banks, wire transfers, any current payment processing system all have costs to run, inherent to them by the fact that they have to employ people to do jobs like collect your cash, put it in a till, put it in a vault, mess around on the computer, maintain an internal ledger through massive computer systems. Plus, most of them operate only on bank hours, which is generally less than 50% of the day.

That cost can be reduced with blockchains, in the sense that there is much less overhead in employees who have been displaced by an autonomous technology that runs 24 hours a day. I'm not trying to make the point that total displacement of banking, and by extension, all costs in running payment processing will be on compare with keeping the blockchain warm.

More that, the industry stands to see a significant reduction in overhead by incorporating a more agile and fit ledger system that's mostly automated.

Problem is, when errors happen. Like you pay the wrong person or money just disappears. I guess that's a talk for another day, but I see things like correctly executed exchange and price volatility being a major focus for any type of post-crypto banking system, along with lending OFC.

Anyways, point I started out with - by saying that PoW is just a waste of energy, consider trying to convince your bank teller that their job is wasted capital, and get back to me.

[Globb0]

they said.

"beep beep beep beep"

[G2M]

they said.

"beep beep beep beep"

LOL,

But just for it to say those beeps, you need engineers to produce the ATM. You need personnel to collect and deposit cash into the system. You need armored trucks to move the money around. And, you need maintenance personnel to keep it in good repair and up to date on technology. You also need power. And local food chains and stores for all of these people. And insurance when they get hurt or die. Just goes on and on.

[kazuki49]

they said.

"beep beep beep beep"

This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a beep.

LOL,

But just for it to say those beeps, you need engineers to produce the ATM. You need personnel to collect and deposit cash into the system. You need armored trucks to move the money around. And, you need maintenance personnel to keep it in good repair and up to date on technology. You also need power. And local food chains and stores for all of these people. And insurance when they get hurt or die. Just goes on and on.

the humans lost the moment they felt the need to justify their own existence in a robot-dominated world, beep

i would welcome the social contract in form of a contract/document/post whatever, but its not a must(i feel fine without it) and would be more like a marketing idea, still i like it.
But if there are things that are set in stone(which there are), why not collect and publish them somewhere in concentrated form?

i think right now only the hardcore followers know all the details about this contract. but we are proud of our concensus, so why not make it more visible

Exactly what I meant, even better, its how I feel.

[kazuki49]

The WTF chill creeping my skin - I get almost anytime thinking about POW. Power ... wasted.

A major misunderstanding regarding Proof of Work is that the work is "wasted." In reality, you have to consume one resource to create another. Fiat money "printing" only works because the system is centralized and the value is legally upheld. I have serious doubts that PoS can work in a decentralized system.

its worse - its hypocrisy, people waste all kinds of resources on the most stupid things, but securing a decentralized p2p currency is somehow absurd! This is an old line by POSers that simply want to gain more coins doing nothing but sitting on them, POW is fair and with Monero is also more efficient compared with Bitcoin because of the algorithm.

[5w00p]

               I wish!

[ArticMine]

The WTF chill creeping my skin - I get almost anytime thinking about POW. Power ... wasted.

A major misunderstanding regarding Proof of Work is that the work is "wasted." In reality, you have to consume one resource to create another. Fiat money "printing" only works because the system is centralized and the value is legally upheld. I have serious doubts that PoS can work in a decentralized system.

its worse - its hypocrisy, people waste all kinds of resources on the most stupid things, but securing a decentralized p2p currency is somehow absurd! This is an old line by POSers that simply want to gain more coins doing nothing but sitting on them, POW is fair and with Monero is also more efficient compared with Bitcoin because of the algorithm.

There is a simple solution to this issue. There a common application where electricity is turned into heat and this is not "wasted electricity" namely space heating. This is a situation where POW mining has zero environmental impact. Furthermore because using electricity to produce heat only makes sense when the heat is required on a decentralized and distributed basis it actually increases the strenght of the POW network.

When it is -30 C outside the heat has way more value than the electricity.

[naimc3243]

Have not been able to logon to  https://mymonero.com for 2 days now, anyone know when the site will be functional again ?

[vokain]

Have not been able to logon to  https://mymonero.com for 2 days now, anyone know when the site will be functional again ?

Now. It's been working for me. In the future, try http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/

[kazuki49]

Have not been able to logon to  https://mymonero.com for 2 days now, anyone know when the site will be functional again ?

Having problems accessing it too.

[medusa13]

Request for comments: https://forum.getmonero.org/4/academic-and-technical/303/a-formal-approach-towards-better-hard-fork-management

this worked out well, good job fluffy. If you call, people come. i think it really helps to have threads inside the monero forum that are on one specific topic only with very low noise inside. please do so again in the future.