[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[aminorex]

Love that word. 

"What's so special about Monero?" 

"It's supervenient."

[binaryFate]

Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

It's nice to quote Adam Back but I think his formulation is weak.
It's better expressed as "Fungibility requires privacy". The later relationship makes it clear there is no other way to obtain fungibility at the macro scale than to offer privacy at the user scale.

Adam's (admittedly subtle) formulation is exactly right; yours creates chicken-or-egg recursion.  Did you listen to the context?

He may have put up some reddit posts on the subject too.  CBA to find them tho.  

It's more a matter of PR and catchyness rather than pure logic, for me both are correct in terms of logic.
What I find weak/unintuitive with his statement is that he expresses the desired result at the global scale (fungibility) and says "by the way that also gives you" the desired result at the individual scale (pricacy).
I much prefer to express that if you want to get to the general goal "fungibility", you'll have to design your system for the goal "privacy" and there is no alternative that'd by-pass it

Monero's "involuntary" (ie 100%) fungibility is logically prior to its privacy, which is an emergent property.

Systemic macro scale fungibility supervenes upon privacy at the individual user level.

Pure logic FTW.   

I still disagree because for me fungibility is the emergent property, not the other way around.
Anyway we might be splitting hairs. 

[smooth]

Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

It's nice to quote Adam Back but I think his formulation is weak.
It's better expressed as "Fungibility requires privacy". The later relationship makes it clear there is no other way to obtain fungibility at the macro scale than to offer privacy at the user scale.

Adam's (admittedly subtle) formulation is exactly right; yours creates chicken-or-egg recursion.  Did you listen to the context?

He may have put up some reddit posts on the subject too.  CBA to find them tho.  

It's more a matter of PR and catchyness rather than pure logic, for me both are correct in terms of logic.
What I find weak/unintuitive with his statement is that he expresses the desired result at the global scale (fungibility) and says "by the way that also gives you" the desired result at the individual scale (pricacy).
I much prefer to express that if you want to get to the general goal "fungibility", you'll have to design your system for the goal "privacy" and there is no alternative that'd by-pass it

Monero's "involuntary" (ie 100%) fungibility is logically prior to its privacy, which is an emergent property.

Systemic macro scale fungibility supervenes upon privacy at the individual user level.

Pure logic FTW.   

I still disagree because for me fungibility is the emergent property, not the other way around.
Anyway we might be splitting hairs. 

Fungibility is an emergent property here because Monero is a constructed device. Thus fungibility must emerge from the construction.

Fungibility in other (mostly historical) cases is not emergent but a property of the underlying good.

[iCEBREAKER]

Love that word.  

"What's so special about Monero?"  

"It's supervenient."

 

Monero:  Fungibilistic.  Supervenient.  Cryptolicious.

[iCEBREAKER]

Fungibility is an emergent property here because Monero is a constructed device. Thus fungibility must emerge from the construction.

Fungibility in other (mostly historical) cases is not emergent but a property of the underlying good.

Isn't fungibility an intrinsic property of, and thus indistinguishable from, Monero's construction?

Cryptographer Adam Back, the creator of the proof-of-work system used by bitcoin, gave a talk in Israel last year that focused on the relationship between privacy and fungibility. During the opening portion of his presentation, Back was able to explain how cryptographic digital cash systems can provide fungibility by default:

“Before bitcoin there were a number of cryptographic electronic cash systems, and they introduced the concept of cryptographically enforced fungibility. The way you go about doing that is by making it so you can’t tell one note from another. So, you don’t have to rely on law; it’s just mathematically impossible to tell which note came from the previous transaction because they’re randomized or anonymized in some way. This is another example of the bitcoin adopted mantra of ‘trust mathematics over law.’ So, because you can’t tell one note from another there’s no need to have a legal ruling to say that they should be all treated equal. They should all be treated equal by default because you can’t tell the difference between them.”

I believe ^that supports my POV, given the speaker notes "fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."

Put another way, Monero's privacy is optional/voluntary (ie weak) but its fungibility is not (ie strong).  From there, I conclude the latter is logically prior to the former (and the fussy/subtle supervenience relation therein).

For you noob lurkers, here's some background about why this is such a Big Deal.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/401i0r/great_point_fungibility_upgrades_are_equal_to_if/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3zr9hz/andreas_antonopoulos_another_proposal_based_on/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4012hu/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

[dEBRUYNE]

Those are all great links iCEBREAKER, but the one aminorex really needs is this one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qomqt/what_a_landmark_legal_case_from_mid1700s_scotland/

[iCEBREAKER]

Those are all great links iCEBREAKER, but the one aminorex really needs is this one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qomqt/what_a_landmark_legal_case_from_mid1700s_scotland/

That's the first thing Adam talks about in his speech.  Might be kind of esoteric deep diving for a VC.

There was a great Potential Monero Investor Executive Summary that Risto wrote or edited.  Can't find it on the MEW page.  Halp?

[binaryFate]

Those are all great links iCEBREAKER, but the one aminorex really needs is this one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qomqt/what_a_landmark_legal_case_from_mid1700s_scotland/

That's the first thing Adam talks about in his speech.  Might be kind of esoteric deep diving for a VC.

There was a great Potential Monero Investor Executive Summary that Risto wrote or edited.  Can't find it on the MEW page.  Halp?

This? http://moneroinvestment.com
Forever a work in progress though.

[iCEBREAKER]

This? http://moneroinvestment.com
Forever a work in progress though.

That's the one.

It's due for an annual update, but still a great representation of the uber-bull thesis.

[saddambitcoin]

introducing Monero-PHP:
https://github.com/PsychicCat/monero-php

x-post from reddit:

I'm learning PHP at the moment so I decided to put together a simple wrapper class for the simplewallet JSON-RPC API.
There were already some good implementations out there from TheKoziTwo and MalMen, but this is less opinionated and deals only with simplewallet communication! Plus, you can easily install it in your PHP project using Composer.
If anyone does end up using it please feel free to let me know feedback/things that could be improved. Thanks!

[saddambitcoin]

It is only exploratory so far, but a major East Coast U.S. V.C. has asked me to brief them on XMR. (Please do not speculate on this basis.).  What are the best collateral materials for this purpose?  Software engineers with some bitcoin exposure will be there, and I should like to satisfy their questions from script, where possible.

Not sure if these have been shared yet but here are the slides from Fluffypony's "50 Shades of Privacy" presentation, very informative:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2Wr0za-GUUUWGdrc0E4TjB0WTg/view?usp=sharing

[iCEBREAKER]

It is only exploratory so far, but a major East Coast U.S. V.C. has asked me to brief them on XMR. (Please do not speculate on this basis.).  What are the best collateral materials for this purpose?  Software engineers with some bitcoin exposure will be there, and I should like to satisfy their questions from script, where possible.

Not sure if these have been shared yet but here are the slides from Fluffypony's "50 Shades of Privacy" presentation, very informative:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2Wr0za-GUUUWGdrc0E4TjB0WTg/view?usp=sharing

Well I'm sold.  That was epic!  

edit: the post below this this one made me realize we need the Fluffysliden translated into non-western languages ASAP.

[XMRChina]

Node count in China continues to gradually grow: https://monerohash.com/nodes-distribution.html

If you live in China, please start more nodes.  Then contact your favorite Chinese exchanges and ask for Monero trading.

[explorer]

Node count in China continues to gradually grow: https://monerohash.com/nodes-distribution.html

If you live in China, please start more nodes.  Then contact your favorite Chinese exchanges and ask for Monero trading.

There's a node close to me, which sort of blows my mind.

[Drhiggins]

Tonight I read through some of the Ideas section over on Monero Forums and this idea just really speaks to me.  Although I have know idea how to do  it and I don't have the technical skills that would be needed, I think this is something to start looking into and thinking about for the future acceptance of monero from more than just traders and enthusiasts.

I understand that most of the work on monero right now is centralized around the fundamentals set out by the devs and the creation of real world usable features like RingCT, GUI wallet and others. This development is fundamental of course and is what will and is making monero great.  I think its time though to start discussing how monero captures more users especially business that can accept day to day transactions.

I came across this post by kodaxx on the forum and I post a link of it here so those that may have not read his idea could read it over.  Maybe there is someone out there in the monero community now thinking about this same issue or maybe someone out there would know how to go about a project like this.  I love the idea and I would love to see this become a reality. Like kodaxx said in his post the first coin to get something like his idea right would benefit so much.

https://forum.getmonero.org/6/ideas/2434/monero-pos-system-like-square

[Drhiggins]

Node count in China continues to gradually grow: https://monerohash.com/nodes-distribution.html

If you live in China, please start more nodes.  Then contact your favorite Chinese exchanges and ask for Monero trading.

There's a node close to me, which sort of blows my mind.

So what area are you located?

[Hueristic]

Well guess what? Heard the word fungible used in a tv show yesterday.

- You can always get more pills.
They're fungible.
You're fungible.

http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=the-magicians-2016&episode=s01e08

[1337leet]

Anyone knows a miner that works with catalyst 15.8, Windows 7 and an AMD GPU?

[Drhiggins]

Anyone knows a miner that works with catalyst 15.8, Windows 7 and an AMD GPU?

Claymore should work but you won't get the fastest possible speeds.  I think catalyst 12.3 is the best one for AMD GPU's  I might have the exact catalyst number wrong but i know its 12. something.   

[1337leet]

Claymore doesn't work.

I tried with Catalyst 13.9 - it detected my card but it has got problems with virtual memory, so I upgraded to 16.1.2 which can't detect the GPU ... so I downgraded to 15.8 (which should work because claymore supports 14.X and 15.X) but it still can't find my card....

I'm looking for an other miner...