[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[TrueCryptonaire]

if Monero changes the emission I'm out.

The main body of XMR emission is set in stone and not going to change.

The tail-end emission has yet to be determined.

Is it seriously being considered to change emission rates? I am shocked if smooth or other devs agreed to this, as (although it wouldn't necessarily be my opinion) this opens up Monero to a huge "pre-mine" debate that could get ugly fast. My opinion would be to stick to the current emission rates and not give devs blocks. Fund raise from within. You guys have enough whales where dev funds should never be an issue.

Emissions aren't ideal with XMR, but changing the emission rate opens up a huge can of worms, imo.  

I see changing the emission rate as just short term thinking by greedy coin holders who are tired of the price not going to da moon. Short sightedness kills things. Including coins.

Something like this could be a compromise solution, if it is made sure the devs will not dump those coins immediately (for instance by putting the coins in escrow and pay as a reward based on some guidelines of proven performance).

[windjc]

this opens up Monero to a huge "pre-mine" debate that could get ugly fast.

oh blah blah blah says the coin that sets aside 1% premine for the dev with no accountability.   

Hey, I'm just pointing out the obvious blow back that will occur, imo.

[robinwilliams]

Hey, I'm just pointing out the obvious blow back that will occur, imo.

   

*looks at wj sig*

suuuure u just have xmr's best interest at heart.  this is the dude that started the "official" boolberry name vote without boolberry as an option.  he's a clown

[windjc]

if Monero changes the emission I'm out.

The main body of XMR emission is set in stone and not going to change.

The tail-end emission has yet to be determined.

Is it seriously being considered to change emission rates? I am shocked if smooth or other devs agreed to this, as (although it wouldn't necessarily be my opinion) this opens up Monero to a huge "pre-mine" debate that could get ugly fast. My opinion would be to stick to the current emission rates and not give devs blocks. Fund raise from within. You guys have enough whales where dev funds should never be an issue.

Emissions aren't ideal with XMR, but changing the emission rate opens up a huge can of worms, imo.  

I see changing the emission rate as just short term thinking by greedy coin holders who are tired of the price not going to da moon. Short sightedness kills things. Including coins.

Something like this could be a compromise solution, if it is made sure the devs will not dump those coins immediately (for instance by putting the coins in escrow and pay as a reward based on some guidelines of proven performance).

What I don't understand is the Risto and other whales are creating the "MEW" and all these other "whale" things, yet the developers are going hungry. How the hell does this happen?

[generalizethis]

Debate timeout: 

[windjc]

Hey, I'm just pointing out the obvious blow back that will occur, imo.

   

*looks at wj sig*

suuuure u just have xmr's best interest at heart.  this is the dude that started the "official" boolberry name vote without boolberry as an option.  he's a clown

Ok. Look. We can agree to disagree. You like changing the emission. I don't think its a good idea. I actually think it will hurt XMR and probably, if anything, help BBR. But we don't have to make it personal. I was just generally surprised thats all. I will bow out now, as I am sure I am not welcomed in this discussion. My apologies.

[iCEBREAKER]

if Monero changes the emission I'm out.

The main body of XMR emission is set in stone and not going to change.

The tail-end emission has yet to be determined.

Is it seriously being considered to change emission rates?

You can't "change" something that hasn't been decided yet...

Once again:

The main body of XMR emission is set in stone and not going to change.

The tail-end emission has yet to be determined.

[GreekBitcoin]

A post mine is completely out of the question in my book.

Jesus. This isn't the USD where the government just tries to solve it's problems by printing more money. I mean wtf.

The only option is to change the emission schedule.

What is the problem with price going down for now until more adoption? If the coin is legit it will succeed. As i said if someone believes that the price will fall then sell now buy back later.

[smooth]

I will bow out now, as I am sure I am not welcomed in this discussion. My apologies.

Not true, windjc. We don't chase people away from our thread because we disagree on their views on things nor because they happen to involved with another coin.

Your views are as valid as anyone else's.

Obnoxious signatures are an obvious turn off, and may result in your views being taken less seriously. But that is your call.

[generalizethis]

A post mine is completely out of the question in my book.

Jesus. This isn't the USD where the government just tries to solve it's problems by printing more money. I mean wtf.

The only option is to change the emission schedule.

What is the problem with price going down for now until more adoption? If the coin is legit it will succeed. As i said if someone believes that the price will fall then sell now buy back later.

Adoption should increase with the GUI, so if a post-mine is the road, we should go down it prior to the GUI. Not siding here, just pointing out the time frame.

[windjc]

A post mine is completely out of the question in my book.

Jesus. This isn't the USD where the government just tries to solve it's problems by printing more money. I mean wtf.

The only option is to change the emission schedule.

What is the problem with price going down for now until more adoption? If the coin is legit it will succeed. As i said if someone believes that the price will fall then sell now buy back later.

It almost feels like this is a panic decision driven buy Risto and his "whale" collective that are watching their BTC wealth dwindle and have been unable to prop up the XMR price. So they seem desperate to do anything to increase the price. No patience.

And before you dismiss my motives for saying this, consider this point. One of the biggest marketing points for BBR to new investors we are constantly meeting with is the value of XMR. The better XMR performs short term the better for us.

But if you guys keep doing controversial things it hurts us all.

[smooth]

Is it seriously being considered to change emission rates? I am shocked if smooth or other devs agreed to this

Nobody agreed to anything it is merely a discussion.

I see changing the emission rate as just short term thinking by greedy coin holders who are tired of the price not going to da moon. Short sightedness kills things. Including coins.

I will never agree to any change that is supported on that basis. Obviously hidden motives are impossible identify with certainly, but if anything is to be done there will need to be a strong justification for it that does not include price manipulation.

[smooth]

this opens up Monero to a huge "pre-mine" debate that could get ugly fast.

oh blah blah blah says the coin that sets aside 1% premine for the dev with no accountability.  

There is accountability to the miners who can turn it off if they don't like what is happening. Miners don't represent the whole community certainly but that is not no accountability.

[iCEBREAKER]

A post mine is completely out of the question in my book.

Jesus. This isn't the USD where the government just tries to solve it's problems by printing more money. I mean wtf.

The only option is to change the emission schedule.

In my book, forcing the devs to abandon Monero for lack of funds is out of the question.  And so is continuing their practice of subsidizing the whales, miners, and everyone else, by working for below-market rates.

A post mine is in some sense a change to the emission schedule.  But the Bootstrap Block would be auctioned off and thus its emission change kind-of happens 'off-chain.'

No matter what, the now-undecided emission schedule must change when a solution for the tail-end is implemented.

All the Sturm und Drang in the universe will not change that simple fact.

[windjc]

A post mine is completely out of the question in my book.

Jesus. This isn't the USD where the government just tries to solve it's problems by printing more money. I mean wtf.

The only option is to change the emission schedule.

In my book, forcing the devs to abandon Monero for lack of funds is out of the question.  And so is continuing their practice of subsidizing the whales, miners, and everyone else, by working for below-market rates.

A post mine is in some sense a change to the emission schedule.  But the Bootstrap Block would be auctioned off and thus its emission change kind-of happens 'off-chain.'

No matter what, the now-undecided emission schedule must change when a solution for the tail-end is implemented.

All the Sturm und Drang in the universe will not change that simple fact.

Why are you guys subsidizing the whales?? This is a huge problem. What other coin has more whale support than XMR?? It's been this coins MAIN selling point for months. And now it's being admitted that basically the devs work for peanuts at the grandiziation of whales? Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

[smooth]

Future windjc sig:

smooth, on the BBR dev tax (Sept 25, 2014): "There is accountability"

[iCEBREAKER]

It almost feels like this is a panic decision driven buy Risto and his "whale" collective that are watching their BTC wealth dwindle and have been unable to prop up the XMR price. So they seem desperate to do anything to increase the price. No patience.

The whale are propping up the XMR price just fine.  It's been stable despite the ongoing generous early emission, Troll Block Attack, and BCX FUD.  The market cap is doing very well.  Thanks for your concern.   

We don't expect the price of XMR to really pick up for another couple of years, when block rewards begin to fall rapidly.

We haven't even integrated a DB and i2p yet, much less released an Official Wallet.

By calling XMR people "desperate" and whatnot, you sound like the "impatient" one here.

As for whale subsidies, they are not avoidable absent a 'wealth tax' in the form of a post-mine bootstrap.

And at least one whale is giving directly back to the community.  All whales help by absorbing new coins, so it's not an entirely one-way street.

[rdnkjdi]

Why are you guys subsidizing the whales?? This is a huge problem. What other coin has more whale support than XMR?? It's been this coins MAIN selling point for months. And now it's being admitted that basically the devs work for peanuts at the grandiziation of whales? Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

Why are you guys subsidizing the whales?  

There are two issues.  The first is funding development.  The second is trying to figure out a way to avoid it looking like too much like an early adopter setup / rapid mine on down the road by the current high emission rate.  Irritatingly the only way to do something about the second problem is to make it look like we are rewarding those who own the coins now by slowing down the emission rate.

I don't care much about the price.  I do care about the market cap which should not be hurt by keeping the high emission.

[smoothie]

What's the update on funding efforts? (This is for Devs and MEW). With the effort that was put in over the last few days and continues to be put forth, I think some people might want to give back  A thank you can only go so far.

The devs (core team) and MEW are different entities. The funding requirements mainly arise from the work that is coordinated by the devs. The monthly burn rate for developing Monero by the 7 core team members and several specialists, is significant. So far there has not been an efficient mechanism for recouping the costs already paid by the devs, and supplying the ongoing efforts. Our developers are so great that it is not fitting for them to go around begging for donations, they have rather concentrated on their excellent work and paid the outside help from their own pocket.

A great reason for MEW to even exist is that it can support the development. 50% of MEW membership fees are directed to the developers from the onset. So joining MEW automatically aids the development. More than 2000 XMR are thus received, from the founding members alone.

MEW has a voting system where the community can vote on matters related to Monero. Some members have brought it to me (as Operational Executive, it is my job to arrange the voting if 10% of the votepower so requires) to exhort the devs that Monero software should be developed to include some or all of these:
- a one-time bonus block that gives coins to the development (similar to premine that the other coins have, but "post-mine" and smaller in percentage);
- Permanent diversion of some % of the block rewards to the development;
- Slowing of emission curve, whose side effect would be that coins mined prior to the change would be considered a sort of fast mine. At this point it might be able to rally the owners of the privileged coins to donate large chuncks to the developers, since their remaining coins may likely gain in value.

It must be further underlined that:
a) the core team cannot stop the MEW members from taking whatever to be voted upon, so merely the fact that something is being discussed and/or voted in MEW, does not mean that the core team is at all behind it, and may be against it, or not even considered it.
b) if such proposal to do something with the software passes, the MEW's authority to enforce it stops there. The developers may do whatever with their coin. Since some of the core team members are also in MEW, their voting may indicate whether the resolution is likely to be implemented in the core team.

The purpose of MEW is to be a legitimate and functional way to find out what the coin owners think how things should be developed. The owners of the coin are an important peer group to the developers, eg. for a reason that the aggregate demand for ownership determines the market cap (price of the coin).

In any way you can donate to the developers directly to the donation address. Also hopefully even today, the MEW (in the mouth of David Latapie, the Members Executive) will announce that the membership is opened for everybody starting at 10 XMR entry fee.

Personally I believe excess funding leads to problems with prioritization, thus the "lean and hungry" approach will lead to better results. Concerning Monero, however, the funding situation has been ridiculous for too long already, and if the MEW is allowed to help, the problem will be put to rest even this year.

Hopefully the devs take into consideration the overall community's take on such changes.

Personally those suggested example changes I am against as it sets a precedent that insertion of XMR can be on a whim and to adjust the emission rate is a flaw as the rules of XMR were set from the get go.

Personally, if it has nothing to do directly with the security of XMR using CN then changes are only monetary and economical in nature.

Of course this all comes down to the network consensus in the end.

Just some random thoughts 

[windjc]

It almost feels like this is a panic decision driven buy Risto and his "whale" collective that are watching their BTC wealth dwindle and have been unable to prop up the XMR price. So they seem desperate to do anything to increase the price. No patience.

The whale are propping up the XMR price just fine.  It's been stable despite the ongoing generous early emission, Troll Block Attack, and BCX FUD.  The market cap is doing very well.  Thanks for your concern.   

We don't expect the price of XMR to really pick up for another couple of years, when block rewards begin to fall rapidly.

We haven't even integrated a DB and i2p yet, much less released an Official Wallet.

By calling XMR people "desperate" and whatnot, you sound like the "impatient" one here.

As for whale subsidies, they are not avoidable absent a 'wealth tax' in the form of a post-mine bootstrap.

And at least one whale is giving directly back to the community.  All whales help by absorbing new coins, so it's not an entirely one-way street.

Wow. So whales buying coins to prop up the price is considered their contribution?? Wow oh wow.

An investment is not a contribution to dev. You have 1 whale who gets this.

And posters are now openly admitting that decreasing emissions is an appeal to reward whales.

This is incredible imo.