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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency  (Read 4561021 times)
Ultros
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September 26, 2014, 05:04:53 PM
 #14981

Guys, nobody is making any decisions on anything right now. Thus far, there have been a few scattered suggestions, but there hasn't been even one formal, well-defined, thoroughly analysed, well documented proposal. Calls for us (the Core Team) to make a decision or a statement just leave us scratching our heads and saying "turn down for what?"

This frenzied back-and-forth in posts littered with veiled threats and promises are posts driven by emotion. Of course I personally have extremely strong feelings in this matter, but is this the time and place to be discussing it? It is not.

Nothing is on the table or off the table, because there is no table just yet. The constant attacks, both actual and threatened, have left us running around chasing our tails for a month. Now is not the time or create disarray and suck up time in circuitous debates. There will be a time and place for that in the not too distant future.

I would respectfully request that if you insist on discussing this, that any and all comments or posts discussing ideas around "dev blocks", miner tax, adjusting the emission curve, threats to sell your stash if X happens, calls for the core team to wade through walls of posts and make some comment, and anything of that nature be taken to the MEW thread or anywhere else.

Let's, please, solidify ourselves and retain some degree of unity as we restart our activities and reevaluate our priorities, and we can have these in-depth and controversial discussions once the smoke has cleared.

+1

Indeed +1. The devs just went an insane parade of crisis. The least we can do is to cut them some slacks and give them some time to rest. Seriously, that past month was like twelve different Internet shitstorms that got together, got drunk, had an orgy, and birthed a monstrosity that was an unholy amalgam of all twelve. Maybe we could start with being happy XMR is still standing on its crypto-feet after such a maelstrom (and that the price didn't completely crash) then wait a few days before jumping on the next critical coinkiller/point of failure that will crash the universe. Save our nerves, preserve my ulcer, for Satoshi's sake.
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September 26, 2014, 05:12:05 PM
 #14982


Spoken like a true student of Bernanke. Macroprudential, right?

You're not describing adoption, you're describing a Ponzi.

I am majoring in economics at university of Helsinki in the faculty of Social Sciences (valtiotieteellinen tiedekunta). It is quite hard to get in there.  Grin I think fiat money system's advantages surpasses its disadvantages as long as the inflation is in control. Debt based system is not good one but fiat system is since it forces people buying right now instead of waiting eternally. Those who want to save money can do it in gold or silver, fiat money is not the right tool for it at least for more than a few years generally. Economy needs small inflation in order to function. On the other hand, if the inflation is too high it is also problematic. ECB targets 2 % inflation which is optimal in my opinion (not too high but not too low neither).
It is well-known fact that crypto is a pyramid but to say it is ponzi is not legit IMO.

All I said, the price of xmr should go up which encourages people buying the coin and thus increases the marketcap.
If the price is in bearish trend, it is rational to postpone the buys and if the price is going up it is rational to buy immediately.
The challenge is to find the exact rate of emission which goes along with the pace of adoption. Ideally the emission should be a little lower than the adotion rate since some long term bagholders might want to sell and it shouldn't cause volatility too much ideally so there should be constant shortage of the coins in the market in order to keep the marketcap rising.

Also, there is no incentive to dump coins if the coin price is rising steadily because of the opportunity cost of loosing some of the gains.
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September 26, 2014, 05:13:18 PM
 #14983

Quote
even from an investors perspective the expected value of financing development will be one of the best deals we could ever make still it somewhat fails.

I agree with this.  I've shot off 5% of my holdings and may go up to 10% to the devteam (I'm a minnow).  If Monero isn't properly funded it will lose it's value.  I'm not sure who needs to organize the whales (is Risto doing this) but IMO 1% of holdings isn't enough.

In the beginning I was ok with the 1% forced dev fee.  I still am if absolutely everything else fails.  I will probably sell half of my XMR if that happens judging by how the community is threatening to react - but by the time XMR dies it will have an improved code base because it was funded.  We won't even get this far if it dies due to lack of developer interest / effort.

it is an inherent dilemma with funding decentralized systems with a group where no personal contact is existent. there are ways to overcome this, but for this we need some kind centralization for a limited amount of time. short term helping would be a detailed and transparent list of costs for development.
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September 26, 2014, 05:13:42 PM
 #14984

...

If a bitcoin whale supports an altcoin - not to mention several such whales, it is inevitable fact that it will affect on the price.
However in case Monero it has affected the price stability which lack the most coins.

However, I agree with the "FUD" you posted here about monero.

I own a significiant stash Monero.
My strategy to accumulate more Moneros is to tell other competitors how the price might drop after a long decline. When they are frozen, I will scoop some cheap coins.  Grin
Call me a scammer but I am never lying when I open my mouth about Monero.
When I want the price down, I will start speaking all the shortcomings of this coin which in my heart I know is the only alt that has true value.  Roll Eyes

It seems that someone didnt scoop cheap coins at all! Tongue
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September 26, 2014, 05:20:11 PM
 #14985

...

If a bitcoin whale supports an altcoin - not to mention several such whales, it is inevitable fact that it will



It seems that someone didnt scoop cheap coins at all! Tongue

I haven't in this recent dump, but if it gets too low I might be forced to despite I have not that much desire to accumulate too large bag. I prefer others also buying, not me alone.  Grin
But you are right, recently I haven't been buying, I am neutral in my own position (no sell no buy).
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September 26, 2014, 05:25:21 PM
 #14986

...

If a bitcoin whale supports an altcoin - not to mention several such whales, it is inevitable fact that it will



It seems that someone didnt scoop cheap coins at all! Tongue

I haven't in this recent dump, but if it gets too low I might be forced to despite I have not that much desire to accumulate too large bag. I prefer others also buying, not me alone.  Grin
But you are right, recently I haven't been buying, I am neutral in my own position (no sell no buy).

I would give more emphasis to the term 'cheap' to be honest.
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September 26, 2014, 05:41:32 PM
 #14987

I am majoring in economics at university of Helsinki in the faculty of Social Sciences (valtiotieteellinen tiedekunta). It is quite hard to get in there.  Grin I think fiat money system's advantages surpasses its disadvantages as long as the inflation is in control. Debt based system is not good one but fiat system is since it forces people buying right now instead of waiting eternally. Those who want to save money can do it in gold or silver, fiat money is not the right tool for it at least for more than a few years generally. Economy needs small inflation in order to function. On the other hand, if the inflation is too high it is also problematic. ECB targets 2 % inflation which is optimal in my opinion (not too high but not too low neither).
It is well-known fact that crypto is a pyramid but to say it is ponzi is not legit IMO.

All I said, the price of xmr should go up which encourages people buying the coin and thus increases the marketcap.
If the price is in bearish trend, it is rational to postpone the buys and if the price is going up it is rational to buy immediately.
The challenge is to find the exact rate of emission which goes along with the pace of adoption. Ideally the emission should be a little lower than the adotion rate since some long term bagholders might want to sell and it shouldn't cause volatility too much ideally so there should be constant shortage of the coins in the market in order to keep the marketcap rising.

Congratulations! Most academic economic tracks in the last 50 years or so have been slowly corrupted by truthiness and bias towards the status quo (after all, the universities manufacture the academics that justify the status quo for the populus). The argument that the economy needs a small inflation to function has been repeated ad nauseatum and rebuked just as many times. It does sound plausible, but it simply is not true.

First, inflation does not mean increasing prices. Inflation means an increase in the money supply, and increasing prices is just an effect. For example, since 2008, the USD went through a massively inflationary period, but prices did not increase because all the excess cash stayed far away from common goods. Indeed, the self proclaimed purpose of the FED is to create price increases in RE and stocks ("wealth effect"). I use the FED example because I'm more intimately familiar with the matter, but everyone else is doing the same thing (ECB, BoJ, BoE, etc). Bending the meaning of words like inflation only serves to hide the real significance of their actions.

Secondly, let's get to the meat of the argument. You claim that increasing prices are necessary to make people buy stuff, because otherwise they would not and the economy would collapse. This can be shown to be wrong with two simple examples:

1. If the prices for necessary goods (i.e. food, fuel) were decreasing, you would not starve, but postpone purchase until you really need it. Thus, you end up paying less for a larger utility gain. Decreasing prices of necessary goods encourages mindFUL consumption instead of mindLESS consumption (consumerism).

2. If the prices for leisure (unnecessary) goods (i.e. from sports cars to cell phones and boutique cupcakes) were decreasing, you would not buy less of them, but more. Since we assume they are unnecessary goods, you have no NEED for them anyway, so you buy them simply for hedonic/aesthetic reasons. If you can get more of them, you will. A very good example for this are tech products like smartphones and laptops. Their nominal price does not significantly decrease (but it does), however their price normalized for performance/capabilities decreases inversely proportional to Moore's &co. laws. This does not make people postpone their purchases "because they will forever be better off if they wait for the next generation", but instead makes people buy them more often.

As prices drop, at some point the gained utility from an upgrade is larger than the lost utility due to price, and that's when you buy it. This is valid for the  next purchase too. This also price-discriminates buyers based on their early/late adopter traits, which is compatible with how prices work now anyway.

So, good luck in your studies, but make sure to read other schools of economic thought as well, because economics is far from an exact science. There are a lot of politics, a lot of manipulation and a lot of simply bullshit floating in the field.
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September 26, 2014, 05:58:10 PM
 #14988


Spoken like a true student of Bernanke. Macroprudential, right?

You're not describing adoption, you're describing a Ponzi.

I am majoring in economics at university of Helsinki in the faculty of Social Sciences (valtiotieteellinen tiedekunta). It is quite hard to get in there.  Grin I think fiat money system's advantages surpasses its disadvantages as long as the inflation is in control. Debt based system is not good one but fiat system is since it forces people buying right now instead of waiting eternally. Those who want to save money can do it in gold or silver, fiat money is not the right tool for it at least for more than a few years generally. Economy needs small inflation in order to function. On the other hand, if the inflation is too high it is also problematic. ECB targets 2 % inflation which is optimal in my opinion (not too high but not too low neither).
It is well-known fact that crypto is a pyramid but to say it is ponzi is not legit IMO.

All I said, the price of xmr should go up which encourages people buying the coin and thus increases the marketcap.
If the price is in bearish trend, it is rational to postpone the buys and if the price is going up it is rational to buy immediately.
The challenge is to find the exact rate of emission which goes along with the pace of adoption. Ideally the emission should be a little lower than the adotion rate since some long term bagholders might want to sell and it shouldn't cause volatility too much ideally so there should be constant shortage of the coins in the market in order to keep the marketcap rising.

Also, there is no incentive to dump coins if the coin price is rising steadily because of the opportunity cost of loosing some of the gains.


Your degree means nothing, and they are teaching you lies.  I say this as someone with undergraduate degrees in economics and political science (double major completed in 3 years) and an MBA with a concentration in finance.  From what you have said, your understanding of how the world works has been manipulated by those that have an agenda to do so for their own self-interest.  You are lucky you stumbled into crypto because you will likely be rich someday, but that will not be attributable to your intelligence or insight.  You sound young, though, so you still have time to learn the truth.

Please read some material other than what they teach you at university.  Start with Menger's "Principles of Economics" and go from there.  Please.
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September 26, 2014, 06:15:45 PM
 #14989

The other part of the decision not to use bounties is that the incentive is to do the minimum required to collect the bounty with no further development or support.  This isn't always the case with the windows GUI being one example.

I have input on this, but it's quite late so I'll have to save it for later.

My opinion is still a ''kickstarter'' campaign like protonmail.ch did, another privacy oriented "service", it was very successful and funded it with hundreds of thousands, the only "requirement" for it is having a fancy website with all the goals and working functions of monero so a random person can decide and with their freewill give (or not) to monero project.

I agree. I raised the point earlier in the thread that a properly marketed crowdfunding effort could draw donations in from many different spheres. I believe a mistake that's often made in cryptocurrency marketing is not taking it past bitcointalk. There are lots of groups who would donate/invest in an anonymity-focused, open source project like Monero.
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September 26, 2014, 06:45:14 PM
 #14990

Would anyone place a premium on first access to the GUI?

--Devs would get funding and valuable insight from the most invested/interested parties.

--Investors would get an early look and be able to give feedback.

--win?/win?

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September 26, 2014, 06:56:49 PM
 #14991

It's called the free market

even though I mostly agree with your conclusion as well as your position, the free market fails in our specific spot to finance the development of monero. the reason is a dilemma which cannot be solved in a decentralized, anonymous free market manner. at this point decentralization fails, this obv. does not neccessary need a state to be a regulator but it needs a central institution, which solves this specific problem
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September 26, 2014, 07:13:52 PM
 #14992

Some error messages need to be sanitized because they leak information:



EDIT: Actually the errors are triggered by my actions (i.e. failed send, also got similar errors for get_blocks() or similar). For some reason the wallet could not talk to the daemon anymore. That path does not exist on my computer. Any clues?

The path comes from the location of the source when fluffypony compiled it. I agree it isn't really useful.
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September 26, 2014, 07:24:19 PM
 #14993

It's called the free market

even though I mostly agree with your conclusion as well as your position, the free market fails in our specific spot to finance the development of monero. the reason is a dilemma which cannot be solved in a decentralized, anonymous free market manner. at this point decentralization fails, this obv. does not neccessary need a state to be a regulator but it needs a central institution, which solves this specific problem

Yup. The problem of free markets is that it is not a perfect like Chicago school suggests.
The free rider problem is something that the free markets cannot fix.
In this specific case, however, Monero's main problem is its low marketcap and thus the hardness to get some serious dollars out of the community for development.
Personally I am ready to donate as soon as my monero wealth grows in a significiant level in value (I want higher purchasing power for my moneros so that smaller donation will count more).

But, the problem of free rider is just one critisism of free markets.
I am not purely Keynesian or purely Chicago school because both have their problems.
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September 26, 2014, 07:33:58 PM
 #14994

even though I mostly agree with your conclusion as well as your position, the free market fails in our specific spot to finance the development of monero. the reason is a dilemma which cannot be solved in a decentralized, anonymous free market manner. at this point decentralization fails, this obv. does not neccessary need a state to be a regulator but it needs a central institution, which solves this specific problem

Yup. The problem of free markets is that it is not a perfect like Chicago school suggests.
The free rider problem is something that the free markets cannot fix.
In this specific case, however, Monero's main problem is its low marketcap and thus the hardness to get some serious dollars out of the community for development.
Personally I am ready to donate as soon as my monero wealth grows in a significiant level in value (I want higher purchasing power for my moneros so that smaller donation will count more).

But, the problem of free rider is just one critisism of free markets.
I am not purely Keynesian or purely Chicago school because both have their problems.

I don't think anyone here suggested free markets are perfect. At the same time, you are suggesting a central bank style direct intervention on the money supply. That is the main reason why cryptos exist in the first place - to prevent one entity from controlling the money supply.
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September 26, 2014, 07:39:55 PM
 #14995

A Keynesian has been detected in the thread. I repeat a Keynesian has been detected in the thread. Phasers on stun  Cheesy

Seriously though. Any systems in which humans centrally make decisions on what's globally "good" for the economy is inherently flawed. You have no idea whether it's good or bad that the money supply is inflated and you know it (in fact it's neither). The only fair solution is 0%. Oh and the money in Europe is being inflated far in excess of 2% at the moment so if they are truly aiming for 2% some people need to lose their jobs.

Further, we already have a perfectly sound system to regulate the economy which is distributed in nature and will automatically be fair because no-one controls it. It's called the free market. Too bad governments outlawed it a long time ago.


In Europe the inflation is much less than 2 % (I think even below 1 % currently).
The problem is that despite Central Banks are trying push the money into the economy, it doesn't go all the way through but rather to assets and securities (stock markets keep rising and many companies are breaking their ATHs only because investors have cheap money but no places to invest it).
In Finland the car dealerships are offering 0 % loans and still complaining that there is not (enough) sales.
The Central Bank has lowered the deposit rate below 0 but still banks are not so much lending money as they should.

The difference between free markets and Keynesian approach is that Keynesians do not prefer so much volatility (the governement should increase their spending when business cycle is at low point). Keynesians do not suggest to waste money (this is a misunderstanding) but exploiting the opportunity to get cheap labor for building roads, hospitals, schools etc which are necessary. It is good for the labor force - they get job in down cycle from the governement and when the cycle turns, they get similar jobs from the private sector.
Wasting resources is something that Keynesians have to be avoided.
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September 26, 2014, 08:07:14 PM
 #14996


Personally I am ready to donate as soon as my monero wealth grows in a significiant level in value (I want higher purchasing power for my moneros so that smaller donation will count more).


Yes I have heard you say this before with a price of 0.1btc/XMR before you donate.  May I suggest you donate something now as it will increase the likelihood of it reaching that level.  Also by the time the Monero economy grows to the point of 0.1btc/XMR I imagine funding might not be as much of an issue.
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September 26, 2014, 08:34:03 PM
 #14997

A Keynesian has been detected in the thread. I repeat a Keynesian has been detected in the thread. Phasers on stun  Cheesy

Seriously though. Any systems in which humans centrally make decisions on what's globally "good" for the economy is inherently flawed. You have no idea whether it's good or bad that the money supply is inflated and you know it (in fact it's neither). The only fair solution is 0%. Oh and the money in Europe is being inflated far in excess of 2% at the moment so if they are truly aiming for 2% some people need to lose their jobs.

Further, we already have a perfectly sound system to regulate the economy which is distributed in nature and will automatically be fair because no-one controls it. It's called the free market. Too bad governments outlawed it a long time ago.


In Europe the inflation is much less than 2 % (I think even below 1 % currently).
The problem is that despite Central Banks are trying push the money into the economy, it doesn't go all the way through but rather to assets and securities (stock markets keep rising and many companies are breaking their ATHs only because investors have cheap money but no places to invest it).
In Finland the car dealerships are offering 0 % loans and still complaining that there is not (enough) sales.
The Central Bank has lowered the deposit rate below 0 but still banks are not so much lending money as they should.

The difference between free markets and Keynesian approach is that Keynesians do not prefer so much volatility (the governement should increase their spending when business cycle is at low point). Keynesians do not suggest to waste money (this is a misunderstanding) but exploiting the opportunity to get cheap labor for building roads, hospitals, schools etc which are necessary. It is good for the labor force - they get job in down cycle from the governement and when the cycle turns, they get similar jobs from the private sector.
Wasting resources is something that Keynesians have to be avoided.

Below 2%? Try 30%. The ECB is printing like a motherfucker. I don't care much for your retarded definition of inflation as a proxy for prices.

Indeed Keynesians  cannot stand volatility and that's why they fuck everything up. Just as people that have no appetite for volatility should stay out of the market they should stay out of the economy. Go was an old person or something.

Is the whole argument here merely on the definition of words?

Are you satisfied if I replace the word inflation by "increase of CPI"? It is longer way to write it so I prefer using term inflation (=inflating prices).
Sounds like the problem here is semantical.

ECB is printing money indeed but as I told you, it doesn't help real economy since the money is not channeled to real economy but to securities. I feel myself very retarded when I have to repeat myself.

Indeed I prefer lower volatility to higher volatility. Generally high volatility asset cannot efficiently serve as money - currency perhaps but not money.
No rich person will invest significiant amount of money in currency that can tomorrow become worthless or 10 times more valuable. Those who invest in such instruments are called gamblers. They could as well to Las Vegas playing their money in roulette.
I am not one of those.


Personally I am ready to donate as soon as my monero wealth grows in a significiant level in value (I want higher purchasing power for my moneros so that smaller donation will count more).


Yes I have heard you say this before with a price of 0.1btc/XMR before you donate.  May I suggest you donate something now as it will increase the likelihood of it reaching that level.  Also by the time the Monero economy grows to the point of 0.1btc/XMR I imagine funding might not be as much of an issue.

The devs can do things that will increase the marketcap of Monero. If they are unwilling to increase it by lowering the blockreward enough for more scarce coin, I am neither not that willing to donate. I donate based on results, not promises.
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September 26, 2014, 08:43:02 PM
 #14998

ECB is printing money

This is pretty far off topic guys. We do have a Monero Economy thread for discussion of macroeconomic topics such money supply, etc. (especially since the question of tail end money supply in Monero is still unresolved). It hasn't been active recently, but it seems we have some new participants and interest in that subject has picked up, so please take it there. Link is in the OP.

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September 26, 2014, 08:44:20 PM
 #14999


ECB is printing money indeed but as I told you, it doesn't help real economy since the money is not channeled to real economy but to securities. I feel myself very retarded when I have to repeat myself.


It doesn't matter that it's not channeled to the real economy (whatever that means). You're just repeating what these clowns are telling you without questioning.

As you are so bored with repeating yourself I'll shout the point I have been making to you so finally get it: YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT AND COMPLETELY WRONG.

You are not making any point but only yelling like the worst internet troll.  Roll Eyes
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September 26, 2014, 09:10:09 PM
 #15000


ECB is printing money indeed but as I told you, it doesn't help real economy since the money is not channeled to real economy but to securities. I feel myself very retarded when I have to repeat myself.


It doesn't matter that it's not channeled to the real economy (whatever that means). You're just repeating what these clowns are telling you without questioning.

As you are so bored with repeating yourself I'll shout the point I have been making to you so finally get it: YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT AND COMPLETELY WRONG.

You are not making any point but only yelling like the worst internet troll.  Roll Eyes

Read my previous reactions to here. I'm done. Please also re-read your own posts. If you truly think it matters for inflation whether printed money is deployed and where it is deployed than you are truly stupid.

The rudeness doesn't bother me but the off-topic does. Please take it to Monero Economy or elsewhere if you are simply arguing about economics without some actual connection to Monero.

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