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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency  (Read 4560725 times)
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October 04, 2014, 03:48:47 AM
 #15261

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Monero wants to grow and increase adoption but you are limiting your coin to only desktop computers and basically only 64 bit machines with plenty of ram.  How will you offer mobile wallets for devices with a blockchain this big?

It is easy to implement a mobile wallet once the regular, official GUI wallet has been launched. The mobile wallet could be just a remote-client type wallet, so the blockchain does not need to be on the mobile device but can be on another computer, like your desktop ore some server in a data center.

This way you do not need to trust third-party online wallets.

There is also always the possibility to only load the blockchain incrementally into the host ram and reaccess it on a just in time basis when a transaction requires it.
In my oppinion code security and internal stability is priority #1 on this coin.
That´s why my money is on XMR and not <fill your coin name in here>.
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October 04, 2014, 04:10:34 AM
 #15262

So I have some questions.  Not trying to troll although what I'm about to say/ask may come off that way...

can any one tell me how big the monero blockchain is?  how much memory does it currently take up and roughly how much does it grow by each day?

Blockchain size is ~2.3GB takes the minimum of that on RAM, its growing about 20mb day

I've seen these numbers before but wanted it confirmed.  So 20mb day or 1gb in 50 days+/-?  That seems like a lot.  Are you sure?


I'm thumb-sucking numbers, don't take these guesstimates as anything actual or realistic.

- Embedded DB solution/implementation - 6 man weeks is a pretty solid guess, so I'll leave the $14 500
- Convertion of C-code - it's not as simple as this. Apart from this specific item, there needs to be an incremental audit and refactor. Just because the bug was lurking in a piece of C code with this doesn't mean there can't be a bug elsewhere, it's just easier to obfuscate it in C. Holistically this is an active, ongoing task, that will likely end up costing in the $80k - $140k range over many, many months.
- Finished (official) GUI - assuming all the other pieces are in place, then dEBRUYNE is correct - anything from $15k - $20k.
- C++ version of the I2P router (IP obfuscation) - this is already making rapid progress: https://github.com/PrivacySolutions/i2pd. To get it to a point where it's usable and implementable as submodule / library I'd imagine is easily a $50k job, but I'm guessing at what orignal's hourly is.
- ... (blockchain bloat issue?) - not really an issue, and I'm unsure as to what we'd consider "solving" it.[/color] A linear reduction? A lightweight access methodology that heavily reduces the need for local storage / bandwidth? The amount of experimentation and research needed here to find a cryptographically sound "solution" makes it hard to pin a value down.

Based on the details provided by Nekomata above, how is blockchain bloat considered "not really an issue"?  Monero wants to grow and increase adoption but you are limiting your coin to only desktop computers and basically only 64 bit machines with plenty of ram.  How will you offer mobile wallets for devices with a blockchain this big?  If the blockchain wasn't so heavy on ram but increased at the rate given above, it would still be a storage issue for many devices.  How will you expand your adoption and user base with this problem?  To fix this, would it take a significant rewrite of the current code?

Based on the list above, there are at least $160,000 needed to complete 4 items before the blockchain bloat issue is considered.  Shouldn't blockchain bloat be fixed first so you do not have to rebuild parts of the new GUI wallet that will cost "anything from $15k - $20k"?  I assume that if significant changes are required to the code this could impact the wallet as well.

Wasn't there a bounty already offered and paid for a GUI wallet.  One of which seems to have quite a bit of use already.  Is this wallet not good enough to get some of this cost down?

"Does our community have 1000 people willing to donate 15$ now?"  This question is now in 2 threads and I've brought it up in the Polo trollbox and there is still no response to it from anyone willing to donate.  What happens a couple months down the line when roughly $160,000+ isn't raised for this project?  At current market value we're talking about roughly 140,000xmr or roughly 3.75% of the current supply.  I think MEW has only raised like 6,600 +/- XMR so far and paid 3,300+/- of that to the devs.  Risto's analysis says there are between 5,000 and 13,000 monero holder (I think these are way too high).  If that's the case, where are they?

Some have said there is not a funding crisis but there is also not a solution to the problem.  Smooth said it could be months before "we hit a dead end" but writing it off now like there is not a problem does not fix the problem.  It just sugar coats it with an attempt to cover it up and deal with it later.

Maybe Monero will learn something from the BBR fundraising announcement scheduled for tomorrow.

Or maybe Monero will still not get it and keep promoting leadership that assumes because it owns lots of bitcoin that it can steer a CryptoNote alt in the right direction.

Sooner or later people either realize that they have to think outside the box or join those people already doing so.

Again, BBR and Monero are going in different directions, so Id hardly call them "competitors" anymore. But if you don't want to support BBR, you might want to watch what happens over the next couple of weeks and open your minds about raising funds for securing the future of a coin.

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October 04, 2014, 04:22:27 AM
 #15263

Based on the details provided by Nekomata above, how is blockchain bloat considered "not really an issue"?  Monero wants to grow and increase adoption but you are limiting your coin to only desktop computers and basically only 64 bit machines with plenty of ram.  How will you offer mobile wallets for devices with a blockchain this big?  If the blockchain wasn't so heavy on ram but increased at the rate given above, it would still be a storage issue for many devices.  How will you expand your adoption and user base with this problem?  To fix this, would it take a significant rewrite of the current code?

Based on the list above, there are at least $160,000 needed to complete 4 items before the blockchain bloat issue is considered.  Shouldn't blockchain bloat be fixed first so you do not have to rebuild parts of the new GUI wallet that will cost "anything from $15k - $20k"?  I assume that if significant changes are required to the code this could impact the wallet as well.

This is a silly argument. Do you know how mobile wallets for bitcoin work? Hint: they don't store the 25+ GB blockchain locally.
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October 04, 2014, 06:00:45 AM
 #15264

I'm curious as to how the original bitcoin devs got funding in their early days. How were they able to perform such an amazing service to the world by maintaining such bad original code, and steering the ship among many of the early catastrophes? Perhaps angel investors gave them hundreds of thousands of dollars.
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October 04, 2014, 06:21:25 AM
 #15265

I'm curious as to how the original bitcoin devs got funding in their early days. How were they able to perform such an amazing service to the world by maintaining such bad original code, and steering the ship among many of the early catastrophes? Perhaps angel investors gave them hundreds of thousands of dollars.

It was a hobby project for most if not all of them, like most other independent (non-corporate sponsored) open source projects. But remember the environment and expectations were very different. There was no urgency to have a GUI, there was no need for much in the way of APIs for merchant integration, Bitcoin took a very long time to even get to Monero's current small level of transactions, etc. Furthermore no one was attacking it at the time, as Bitcoins weren't much known and weren't even worth anything, and there certainly wasn't a competitive coin space at all. In fact some of the early developer discussions were about how insecure it was, but it didn't really matter at the time, as long as things got improved (over a period of years).
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October 04, 2014, 06:51:35 AM
 #15266

I'm curious as to how the original bitcoin devs got funding in their early days. How were they able to perform such an amazing service to the world by maintaining such bad original code, and steering the ship among many of the early catastrophes? Perhaps angel investors gave them hundreds of thousands of dollars.

It was a hobby project for most if not all of them, like most other independent (non-corporate sponsored) open source projects. But remember the environment and expectations were very different. There was no urgency to have a GUI, there was no need for much in the way of APIs for merchant integration, Bitcoin took a very long time to even get to Monero's current small level of transactions, etc. Furthermore no one was attacking it at the time, as Bitcoins weren't much known and weren't even worth anything, and there certainly wasn't a competitive coin space at all. In fact some of the early developer discussions were about how insecure it was, but it didn't really matter at the time, as long as things got improved (over a period of years).

Ancient history aside, what is Monero intended to be in the near future?   Tongue

FOSS project?
Charity?
Non-profit?
Hobby?
Think tank?
Business?
NGO?
Zaibatsu?
Chaebol?
Mafia?
Government?
Revolutionary vanguard?
Strategically ambiguous?
A hot mess?


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
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October 04, 2014, 07:03:07 AM
Last edit: October 04, 2014, 07:27:34 AM by Kuriso
 #15267

Based on the details provided by Nekomata above, how is blockchain bloat considered "not really an issue"?  Monero wants to grow and increase adoption but you are limiting your coin to only desktop computers and basically only 64 bit machines with plenty of ram.  How will you offer mobile wallets for devices with a blockchain this big?  If the blockchain wasn't so heavy on ram but increased at the rate given above, it would still be a storage issue for many devices.  How will you expand your adoption and user base with this problem?  To fix this, would it take a significant rewrite of the current code?

Based on the list above, there are at least $160,000 needed to complete 4 items before the blockchain bloat issue is considered.  Shouldn't blockchain bloat be fixed first so you do not have to rebuild parts of the new GUI wallet that will cost "anything from $15k - $20k"?  I assume that if significant changes are required to the code this could impact the wallet as well.

This is a silly argument. Do you know how mobile wallets for bitcoin work? Hint: they don't store the 25+ GB blockchain locally.

Silly?  I will admit that I am neither a bitcoin or a cryptonote code pro but it is my understand that cryptonote currently utilizes a lot of ram.  Nekomata even said, "Blockchain size is ~2.3GB takes the minimum of that on RAM..."  None of my other wallets use this much.  Is the heavy utilization of ram due to just the way the current wallet works or is it required for cryptonote coins to work right?  From what I gathered I assumed it was required and that's why I'm wondering what can be done to fix this problem and if this will take a significant rewrite of the current code.  

The bitcoin mobile wallets I've used have basically been interfaces for web wallets.  I do not trust web wallets with my coins.  I keep coins on these as little as possible.  This includes exchanges.  The altcoin mobile wallets I have used seem to be more like real wallets syncing the blockchain on the device.  I feel this is a more secure option but may not be possible for all coins.  A web style wallet may be the only way to achieve this for monero.
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October 04, 2014, 07:35:12 AM
 #15268

"Blockchain size is ~2.3GB takes the minimum of that on RAM..."

I have tested on hardware with 1.5 GB of RAM and it did work, if a bit clunky. That was Linux, Windows would probably not do so well. A realistic configuration especially with Windows is probably 4 GB+ (not including other workload if you intend to run both the Monero node and other programs simultaneously).

Quote
None of my other wallets use this much.  Is the heavy utilization of ram due to just the way the current wallet works or is it required for cryptonote coins to work right?

It is just a function of how the current wallet works, and is not required by the cryptonote design or protocol.

Some work has been done to allow for lower RAM usage, and that will continue. It isn't an enormously high priority because many people, especially the cryptocurrency enthusiasts who would be paying attention to Monero right now, likely have computers with 4+ GB of RAM (and for many using an exchange wallet aka web wallet is a reasonable substitute, although I certainly don't blame you for not wanting to do that). Mobile wallets for Monero don't exist yet at all so that is entirely a non-issue right now.

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October 04, 2014, 07:36:09 AM
 #15269

Ancient history aside, what is Monero intended to be in the near future?   Tongue

Monero.
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October 04, 2014, 08:19:48 AM
 #15270

Ancient history aside, what is Monero intended to be in the near future?   Tongue

Monero.




{textbook sidestep}


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
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October 04, 2014, 09:04:48 AM
 #15271

Ancient history aside, what is Monero intended to be in the near future?   Tongue

Monero.




{textbook sidestep}

It's been known from day one what Monero intends to be. A very good working anonymous CryptoCurrency.

This means secure, stable, having a GUI, being efficient. There is a long way to go.

However it does not mean becoming an apps platform (nxt, ethereum), it does not mean being a game (huc), it does not mean being some chat program (xc). It means being an anonymous CryptoCurrency.

What is it that you don't understand iCEBREAKER, or are you just being a lame troll once more?

In fact, do you ever have anything worthwhile to say on these forums?
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October 04, 2014, 09:15:33 AM
Last edit: October 04, 2014, 10:03:13 AM by bigj
 #15272

Another day of CHEAP Monero at Poloniex :-)

added: Does anyone thinks this is related to the fact that the three biggest Chinese BTC exchanges currently produce 75% of the daily BTC trading volume? (They charge 0% transaction fee on BTC/CNY trades...)
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October 04, 2014, 10:16:12 AM
 #15273

Monero RIP?

Donate for the support of a new Martial arts Style - Aikivindo = Aikido + Wing-Chun (in Ukraine) 5168757318423326 PrivatBank.
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BTC:1DpRaQjdVmrkSopRV8p9RdwvBMWNA9faCS
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October 04, 2014, 10:53:56 AM
 #15274

It's been known from day one what Monero intends to be. A very good working anonymous CryptoCurrency.

This means secure, stable, having a GUI, being efficient. There is a long way to go.

However it does not mean becoming an apps platform (nxt, ethereum), it does not mean being a game (huc), it does not mean being some chat program (xc). It means being an anonymous CryptoCurrency.

What is it that you don't understand iCEBREAKER, or are you just being a lame troll once more?

In fact, do you ever have anything worthwhile to say on these forums?

We know what Monero's goal is, my question was a request to clarify how we get there from here.

As to your last question...

I had something worthwhile to say, that you ignored, along the lines of "drawingthesun, you are an idiot for investing in an obvious scam like Active Virtual IntelliHash Mining." 
You called me a lame troll back then too.   How much did that mistake cost you?
I had something worthwhile to say, that you ignored, along the lines of "drawingthesun, you are an idiot for investing in an obvious scam like LabCoin." 
You called me a lame troll back then too.   How much did that mistake cost you?
I had something worthwhile to say, that you ignored, along the lines of "drawingthesun, you are an idiot for investing in an obvious scam like BTCgarden." 
You called me a lame troll back then too.   How much did that mistake cost you?

 Grin


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"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
Is Dash a scam?
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October 04, 2014, 11:15:23 AM
 #15275

Another day of CHEAP Monero at Poloniex :-)

added: Does anyone thinks this is related to the fact that the three biggest Chinese BTC exchanges currently produce 75% of the daily BTC trading volume? (They charge 0% transaction fee on BTC/CNY trades...)


The volume from exchanges charging  0% transaction fee does not count.
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October 04, 2014, 11:31:44 AM
 #15276

It's been known from day one what Monero intends to be. A very good working anonymous CryptoCurrency.

This means secure, stable, having a GUI, being efficient. There is a long way to go.

However it does not mean becoming an apps platform (nxt, ethereum), it does not mean being a game (huc), it does not mean being some chat program (xc). It means being an anonymous CryptoCurrency.

What is it that you don't understand iCEBREAKER, or are you just being a lame troll once more?

In fact, do you ever have anything worthwhile to say on these forums?

That is a bit unfair. iCEBREAKER was asking about the short term project model. My answer, though a bit terse, was that we aren't constrained to a specific precedent, and will make our own model. At the moment I would say a combination of a hobby project, a sponsored project (with the individual core team members being significant sponsors) and a community-funded project through both individual donations and MEW membership fee-based donations.
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October 04, 2014, 11:36:30 AM
 #15277

MoneroPool.com is fluctuating close to 50% of the total network hashrate (sometimes goes even above 50%).
Could the devs post here and in the unmoderated thread to urge miners to spread the hashrate around a bit? (It wouldn't hurt to mention cryptonotepool.org.uk as a pool donating 100% of fees to development, and also updated with the latest patch)
I know you have done this many times, but apparently it wasn't enough.


^ Important.

If you are mining on moneropool.com, please spread out to other pools. There is a list of pools here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583449.0

If possible please allocate some of your hash to solo mining. One way to do that is to solo mine on your CPU while you pool mine on your GPUs. You will get steady payments from your pool mining with maximum contribution to the security of the network and sporadic but bigger rewards from your solo mining. Likewise, if you are running a wallet/node/client, please activate mining in the node using the start_mining command. Every bit of hash rate helps.

In all cases with pool mining please make sure you have backup pools configured, especially with smaller pools as backups, since DDoS against larger pools is always a serious threat to any coin.
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October 04, 2014, 11:39:08 AM
 #15278

Another day of CHEAP Monero at Poloniex :-)

added: Does anyone thinks this is related to the fact that the three biggest Chinese BTC exchanges currently produce 75% of the daily BTC trading volume? (They charge 0% transaction fee on BTC/CNY trades...)


The volume from exchanges charging  0% transaction fee does not count.

Why do you think so? Don't they have an impact on the price like all the other exchanges?
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October 04, 2014, 11:42:05 AM
 #15279

Another day of CHEAP Monero at Poloniex :-)

added: Does anyone thinks this is related to the fact that the three biggest Chinese BTC exchanges currently produce 75% of the daily BTC trading volume? (They charge 0% transaction fee on BTC/CNY trades...)


The volume from exchanges charging  0% transaction fee does not count.

Why do you think so? Don't they have an impact on the price like all the other exchanges?


Some (maybe most) trades are done by the exchange itself to bloat the volume.
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October 04, 2014, 11:46:21 AM
 #15280

Another day of CHEAP Monero at Poloniex :-)

added: Does anyone thinks this is related to the fact that the three biggest Chinese BTC exchanges currently produce 75% of the daily BTC trading volume? (They charge 0% transaction fee on BTC/CNY trades...)


The volume from exchanges charging  0% transaction fee does not count.

Why do you think so? Don't they have an impact on the price like all the other exchanges?


Some (maybe most) trades are done by the exchange itself to bloat the volume.

That would still affect the price, no?
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