Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Mini Rig Box

[dropt]

Dropt, that was an excellent post, you shouldn't have deleted it

*sigh*  You're probably right.  I feared like i was coming off like a jackass.  However, I too thought it was pretty good, so maybe I'll re-write it.

[SysRun]

Dropt, that was an excellent post, you shouldn't have deleted it

*sigh*  You're probably right.  I feared like i was coming off like a jackass.  However, I too thought it was pretty good, so maybe I'll re-write it.

Is there some contention over BFL not having a working prototype?

[dropt]

Dropt, that was an excellent post, you shouldn't have deleted it

*sigh*  You're probably right.  I feared like i was coming off like a jackass.  However, I too thought it was pretty good, so maybe I'll re-write it.

Is there some contention over BFL not having a working prototype?

No, because it does exist.  I wrote a post regarding this whole fiasco then deleted it, I'm seeing if it can be retrieved.

[RoloTonyBrownTown]

Dropt, that was an excellent post, you shouldn't have deleted it

*sigh*  You're probably right.  I feared like i was coming off like a jackass.  However, I too thought it was pretty good, so maybe I'll re-write it.

Is there some contention over BFL not having a working prototype?

No, because it does exist.  I wrote a post regarding this whole fiasco then deleted it, I'm seeing if it can be retrieved.

I have it in my deleted emails.  I'll PM it to you

[dropt]

I have it in my deleted emails.  I'll PM it to you

Who's awesome? RoloTonyBrownTown is awesome.  Thanks for that!

[SysRun]

Dropt, that was an excellent post, you shouldn't have deleted it

*sigh*  You're probably right.  I feared like i was coming off like a jackass.  However, I too thought it was pretty good, so maybe I'll re-write it.

Is there some contention over BFL not having a working prototype?

No, because it does exist.  I wrote a post regarding this whole fiasco then deleted it, I'm seeing if it can be retrieved.

I'll take that as meaning "Yes (there is contention), because it (the prototype) does exist".

Very confusing. I'll wait for your typed up whateveritis.

[dropt]

Dropt, that was an excellent post, you shouldn't have deleted it

*sigh*  You're probably right.  I feared like i was coming off like a jackass.  However, I too thought it was pretty good, so maybe I'll re-write it.

Is there some contention over BFL not having a working prototype?

No, because it does exist.  I wrote a post regarding this whole fiasco then deleted it, I'm seeing if it can be retrieved.

I'll take that as meaning "Yes (there is contention), because it (the prototype) does exist".

Very confusing. I'll wait for your typed up whateveritis.

No, there would be if we were debating its existence in theory, but it physically exists.  I'm right and the other parties refuse to accept it.    See my next post for my whateveritis.

[dropt]

I huge difference. WORKING PROTOTYPE. That is all.

The product BFL sold never existed. Not even in prototype form. It was nothing more than an extremely poor estimate.

A)  How do you know a prototype never existed?
B)  They do exist (Look up Inaba's post history).
C)  The values may have moved around slightly, but they're not too far off from original estimates.
D)  I'm approaching the conclusion that a lot of the people with these same rhetorical arguments have little or no product design and implementation knowledge let-alone experience.

You know how prototypes get created?  A guy with an idea, business plan and preliminary work-up of the design backed by tabulated and analysed data goes hunting for investors.  Investors like the what the guy's proposing and throw money (within reason) at the creator until a prototype is created.  The prototype is then tested and the design is revised multiple times until a satisfactory final product is created.  It is then marketed, sold and returns are collected and distributed amongst the parties involved.  It seems that in this case the "investors" were guys like you and me who liked what they saw and jumped at a pre-order.  These pre-orders provided the capital to get the prototype created and developed so that the *first* of many design revisions could begin.

I realize shipping dates have been promised and missed, and I'll concede that BFL fucked up in that regard.  But what do you want?  Do you want them to adhere to some arbitrary date and send out garbage?  Or would you rather wait to get a product that performs close to what you've been promised.

People keep saying they're a scam and a fraud and it's been proven by a third party that is in fact *not* a fraud.  So quit it with this bullshit.  Quit fucking with every thread where someone wants to discuss technical details because you guys can't get the design process through your thick skulls.

From: http://www.landsnail.com/apple/local/garage/apple.html

"When he was in eighth grade, Steve Jobs, later the co-founder of Apple Computer, telephoned William Hewlett, president of Hewlett-Packard. "Bill answered, and I said, 'Hi, you know, uh, I'm 12 years old and I'm trying to build a frequency counter,' " Jobs recalls. Hewlett, a symbol of entrepreneurial success in the Santa Clara Valley, chatted graciously with Jobs for 20 minutes. When it was over, the kid got not only the Hewlett-Packard parts he needed but a summer job at the company as well."

Sounds a lot like investment on an idea despite the lack of a "working prototype" doesn't it?

[DeathAndTaxes]

C)  The values may have moved around slightly, but they're not too far off from original estimates.

Not far off the original estimate?
Promised:  1.05 GH/s @ 19.8W for $500 in 4-6 weeks
Delivered (well kinda maybe soon): 700 MH/s @ 85W-90W for $600/$700 6 months later.

It was better when you deleted the post, you looked less silly.  
The point was not that the company hasn't produced anything or that it won't (Eventually) deliver something to customers.

The product BFL sold never existed.

BFL sold pre-orders based on 1.05GH/s @19.8W for $500 in 4-6 weeks "guaranteed".

The 1.05 GH/s @ 19.8W product NEVER EXISTED.  BFL even admitted (finally, in bits and pieces in an obfuscated fashion) that they never had any actual product running @ 1.05GH/s @ 19.8W.   Hence "the product BFL sold never existed" (which isn't to say BFL has no product or will deliver no product). The reality is that using 65nm parts they never could have and never will meet those false specs.

[RoloTonyBrownTown]

People keep saying they're a scam and a fraud and it's been proven by a third party that is in fact *not* a fraud.  So quit it with this bullshit.  Quit fucking with every thread where someone wants to discuss technical details because you guys can't get the design process through your thick skulls.

QFT.   

[SysRun]

"When he was in eighth grade, Steve Jobs, later the co-founder of Apple Computer, telephoned William Hewlett, president of Hewlett-Packard. "Bill answered, and I said, 'Hi, you know, uh, I'm 12 years old and I'm trying to build a frequency counter,' " Jobs recalls. Hewlett, a symbol of entrepreneurial success in the Santa Clara Valley, chatted graciously with Jobs for 20 minutes. When it was over, the kid got not only the Hewlett-Packard parts he needed but a summer job at the company as well."

Sounds a lot like investment on an idea despite the lack of a "working prototype" doesn't it?

As someone who feels comfortable quoting the Steve Jobs Autobiography you should know that Steve Jobs didn't start a business when he was 12 years old. He hadn't even met Woz at that time. The first product that they sold was a blue box that was something Woz put together and presented to Steve. The device was exactly as advertised. A prototype existed first. Same with the next device, the apple computer, created for the Homebrew Computer Club, but then spun off into the first product for Apple.

Someone should tell BFL that Customers ≠ Investors. Not even Steve Jobs could pull something like that off.

At the very least it is unethical.

Sorry, who is now saying that it is an outright scam? Your unflagging loyalty is troubling.

[bombo999]

perhaps you should not purchase one then

[SysRun]

perhaps you should not purchase one then

Are you satisfied with the product that you have purchased bombo999?

[RandyFolds]

The address is odd, seems scammy. Happy to be proven wrong.

25E 12th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106

That's a 12 story building, usually a suite number is needed for large buildings.

Its # 804, a cheap 1 or 2 bedroom apt., I agree that it has a whiff of something, but Inaba is putting his reputation on the line by backing them. (he has met with them in person)

Apparently ten years experience in FPGA design hasn't netted him enough profit for a real office.

Know much about start-ups? 

http://www.retireat21.com/blog/10-companies-started-garages

I probably know a lot more than you...I am 27, have started and sold two successful businesses, and am currently starting an aquaponics operation with some associates and a few million dollars in city, state and federal redevelopment grants. But hey...you quoted something on the internet, so you must be right.

Every company starts relatively small. Generally, though, they do not use customers as investors and rely on preorders to fund their development and production runs.

People keep saying they're a scam and a fraud and it's been proven by a third party that is in fact *not* a fraud.  So quit it with this bullshit.  Quit fucking with every thread where someone wants to discuss technical details because you guys can't get the design process through your thick skulls.

What technical details are there to discuss? There is ONE, I repeat: ONE confirmed unit in the wild, and it is a hack job at that. That proves absolutely fucking nothing as far as fraud is concerned. It is already a very clear bait-and-switch, seeming as they never developed a prototype to the 'guaranteed' specs that they took customer funds for.

I agree with D&T. You looked better before your big post laying it all down for us simpletons.

[Syke]

It seems that in this case the "investors" were guys like you and me who liked what they saw and jumped at a pre-order.  These pre-orders provided the capital to get the prototype created and developed so that the *first* of many design revisions could begin.

Had that been their plan from the beginning, and had they been honest and up front about it, they would have had everyone here cheering them on.

Yet they're doing the same thing over again with the "Rig Box". Accepting pre-orders based on specs that just aren't going to be close to any finished product once they actually start developing it.

[yjacket]

Has inaba posted pictures of the chips yet? Remember, we've only had proof of 2 units. Couldn't they have used really expensive chips to get those numbers?

[RandyFolds]

Has inaba posted pictures of the chips yet? Remember, we've only had proof of 1 unit that wasn't frying itself...though that is debatable atm. Couldn't they have used really expensive chips to get those numbers?

[Inaba]

No, and I don't really want to go down the road of potentially wrecking my unit, either.  It's not like the HS is clipped on, it's glued.  

I plan on reflashing the unit today and also switching from CGminer to Ufasoft to see if the stepping bug is in CGminer or the unit.  BFL says there's no stepping in the unit, just basically a throttle to 0 if it's overheating, which is not what I'm seeing... so I'm thinking it's something in CGminer, but I don't know the CGminer code to make any statements as far as that goes.

As far as the overheating itself, I haven't had a chance to move the unit to the other side of the case so it's not getting backwash from the PSU exhaust.  That PSU is at about 85% capacity, so it's not running cool.

[Epoch]

Inaba, are you running the Single with the side cover on or off? To eliminate temperature as being a possible cause of the throttling, perhaps run it with the cover off the next time you have a chance to access it.

[Inaba]

The cover is currently on.  I will take the cover off if the new software and/or flash does not resolve the issue.. heck I'll even point a fan at it or something.