rpietila Altcoin Observer

[nioc]

If you're not asking "What have you done for me lately" then you're asking "Are we there yet; How much longer?"   Wink

I'm just curious if it's going to turn into a circle jerk "don't worry about it buy ram" while another coin implements the fixes needed to support a larger network/more transactions with lower hardware requirements.  

I just think the approach of "Buy more ram" at 8GB running out is a terrible one to hear when thinking about the future of a coin.  However hearing the delay is "because it's being done right" (assuming it actually is) is the best possible explanation.  

OK I get it now.  You don't know what the terms "swap file' and 'virtual memory' mean, much less how or why one would go about adjusting them.

Here's the skinny: increasing your swap file gives your PC more memory, takes about 60 seconds (including reboot), and costs nothing.  Google it.

Bitcoin's footprint is much heavier than Monero's, but that hasn't even slowed it down and most BTC users aren't even aware of the issue.

A large percentage of users do not know what those terms mean and even greater percent do know how to adjust the VM. Additionally, most users do not know how to upgrade RAM. These users will not Google it. They will quit, put it off till later, or post all over the place asking for help.

I know I had issues on my 8GB Windows box over a month ago. I could only run the deamon if closed most other apps. (edit - i have since upgrade to 16GB and the deamon loads normally)

I do not know the rate the XMR blockchain is growing but someone with more time could extrapolate the blockchain size vs time and figure out when the daemon will not load on a plain vanilla Win build with 8GB. Unless the database is complete at that time, new users will be unable to try out XMR and those already using XMR will lose functionality.

Bitcoin's footprint s indeed heavier but it has multiple lightweight wallets. I don't know of any XMR lightweight wallets endorsed by the devs.

I will repeat that I only have 4GB, use windows 8.1 and can run XMR.  I guess it depends on what else you want to do.  I am able to wander the web and play poker at the same time, neither of which are resource intensive.  

[smooth]

If you're not asking "What have you done for me lately" then you're asking "Are we there yet; How much longer?"   Wink

I'm just curious if it's going to turn into a circle jerk "don't worry about it buy ram" while another coin implements the fixes needed to support a larger network/more transactions with lower hardware requirements.  

I just think the approach of "Buy more ram" at 8GB running out is a terrible one to hear when thinking about the future of a coin.  However hearing the delay is "because it's being done right" (assuming it actually is) is the best possible explanation.  

OK I get it now.  You don't know what the terms "swap file' and 'virtual memory' mean, much less how or why one would go about adjusting them.

Here's the skinny: increasing your swap file gives your PC more memory, takes about 60 seconds (including reboot), and costs nothing.  Google it.

Bitcoin's footprint is much heavier than Monero's, but that hasn't even slowed it down and most BTC users aren't even aware of the issue.

A large percentage of users do not know what those terms mean and even greater percent do know how to adjust the VM. Additionally, most users do not know how to upgrade RAM. These users will not Google it. They will quit, put it off till later, or post all over the place asking for help.

I know I had issues on my 8GB Windows box over a month ago. I could only run the deamon if closed most other apps. (edit - i have since upgrade to 16GB and the deamon loads normally)

I do not know the rate the XMR blockchain is growing but someone with more time could extrapolate the blockchain size vs time and figure out when the daemon will not load on a plain vanilla Win build with 8GB. Unless the database is complete at that time, new users will be unable to try out XMR and those already using XMR will lose functionality.

Bitcoin's footprint s indeed heavier but it has multiple lightweight wallets. I don't know of any XMR lightweight wallets endorsed by the devs.

I will repeat that I only have 4GB, use windows 8.1 and can run XMR.  I guess it depends on what else you want to do.  I am able to wander the web and play poker at the same time, neither of which are resource intensive.  

Maybe the difference is ssd vs hd? Just a guess.

[nioc]

I have hd not ssd.  It is a new but minimal computer with a Pentium G3220.  My internet is 20/5 Mbps
Maybe I be lucky

[btc-mike]

If you're not asking "What have you done for me lately" then you're asking "Are we there yet; How much longer?"   Wink

I'm just curious if it's going to turn into a circle jerk "don't worry about it buy ram" while another coin implements the fixes needed to support a larger network/more transactions with lower hardware requirements.  

I just think the approach of "Buy more ram" at 8GB running out is a terrible one to hear when thinking about the future of a coin.  However hearing the delay is "because it's being done right" (assuming it actually is) is the best possible explanation.  

OK I get it now.  You don't know what the terms "swap file' and 'virtual memory' mean, much less how or why one would go about adjusting them.

Here's the skinny: increasing your swap file gives your PC more memory, takes about 60 seconds (including reboot), and costs nothing.  Google it.

Bitcoin's footprint is much heavier than Monero's, but that hasn't even slowed it down and most BTC users aren't even aware of the issue.

A large percentage of users do not know what those terms mean and even greater percent do know how to adjust the VM. Additionally, most users do not know how to upgrade RAM. These users will not Google it. They will quit, put it off till later, or post all over the place asking for help.

I know I had issues on my 8GB Windows box over a month ago. I could only run the deamon if closed most other apps. (edit - i have since upgrade to 16GB and the deamon loads normally)

I do not know the rate the XMR blockchain is growing but someone with more time could extrapolate the blockchain size vs time and figure out when the daemon will not load on a plain vanilla Win build with 8GB. Unless the database is complete at that time, new users will be unable to try out XMR and those already using XMR will lose functionality.

Bitcoin's footprint s indeed heavier but it has multiple lightweight wallets. I don't know of any XMR lightweight wallets endorsed by the devs.

I will repeat that I only have 4GB, use windows 8.1 and can run XMR.  I guess it depends on what else you want to do.  I am able to wander the web and play poker at the same time, neither of which are resource intensive.  

I was doing a lot more than surfing and poker when I had problems.

[vokain]

the idiots that read threads like this...

... are often hard on yourselves.

exactly, take it from him ^

[TheKoziTwo]

I already posted this in the monero topic, but I think it's worth posting here as well. I have parsed the ANN topic for monero, boolberry, bytecoin, ducknote and darkcoin. Figured it would be interesting to see these results.

I put them into tables and graphs so its a little easier to compare.

Much better! Thanks a lot.

[smooth]

I was doing a lot more than surfing and poker when I had problems.

So you were doing a lot of different things on your 8 GB computer, and your computer can't handle it all, meanwhile someone else is using Monero and some small applications a 4 GB computer, yet you choose to identify Monero as the culprit? The bias here is pretty obvious.

[iCEBREAKER]

I was doing a lot more than surfing and poker when I had problems.

So you were doing a lot of different things on your 8 GB computer, and your computer can't handle it all, meanwhile someone else is using Monero and some small applications a 4 GB computer, yet you choose to identify Monero as the culprit? The bias here is pretty obvious.

Omg, granny's recertified e-machines Simpron won't play Crysis 5 in Quad HD and torrent muh furry pr0n and resync Munero from scratch ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!1!!!!`1~`!!1 
Obviously, this means Monero is teh huge failed jerk of circular proportions.         

*insists on running powerful, complex alpha state software*
*refuses to learn how to adjust swap file and set task priorities*

[btc-mike]

I was doing a lot more than surfing and poker when I had problems.

So you were doing a lot of different things on your 8 GB computer, and your computer can't handle it all, meanwhile someone else is using Monero and some small applications a 4 GB computer, yet you choose to identify Monero as the culprit? The bias here is pretty obvious.

The only thing obvious is you are over-reacting. I said was running other system intensive apps at the time and had problems when I added XMR. I quickly figured out Monero needed more resources than expected and adjusted my usage.

The main point of my post is still valid. In its current state, XMR requires a lot of resources. If you "extrapolate the blockchain size vs time and figure out when the daemon will not load on a plain vanilla Win build with 8GB 4GB. Unless the database is complete at that time, new users will be unable to try out XMR and those already using XMR will lose functionality."

Omg, granny's recertified e-machines Simpron won't play Crysis 5 in Quad HD and torrent muh furry pr0n and resync Munero from scratch ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!1!!!!`1~`!!1 
Obviously, this means Monero is teh huge failed jerk of circular proportions.         

*insists on running powerful, complex alpha state software*
*refuses to learn how to adjust swap file and set task priorities*

Bitcoin and all altcoins except XMR run on her emachine.

I thought all users were welcome, not just uber geeks.

[smooth]

The main point of my post is still valid. In its current state, XMR requires a lot of resources. If you "extrapolate the blockchain size vs time and figure out when the daemon will not load on a plain vanilla Win build with 8GB 4GB. Unless the database is complete at that time, new users will be unable to try out XMR and those already using XMR will lose functionality."

I agree. The current blockchain memory usage is about 2.5 GB (the actual blockchain is about 1 GB but it seems to bloat up by about 2.5x when loaded into memory, the reasons for which were explained by crypto_zoidberg on the BBR thread, since BBR is about the same as XMR in this respect). The natural growth rate seems to be something less than 10 MB per day. At that rate we have at least 160 days until blockchain size increase by 1.6 GB and therefore memory usage increases by about 4 GB (putting an 8 GB system in the same spot as 4 GB system today).

A tighter deadline is a memory increase by 1.5 GB which which will likely make things uncomfortable (but possibly still usable) on 4 GB systems even with virtual memory. That corresponds to a blockchain size increase of 400 MB, which is something more than 40 days (since the 10 GB estimate above was conservative).

Hopefully we will have a database functional by then.

Bitcoin and all altcoins except XMR run on her emachine.

I thought all users were welcome, not just uber geeks.

True, it wasn't our bad idea to load everything into RAM. We are fixing it though.

[iCEBREAKER]

Omg, granny's recertified e-machines Simpron won't play Crysis 5 in Quad HD and torrent muh furry pr0n and resync Munero from scratch ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!1!!!!`1~`!!1 
Obviously, this means Monero is teh huge failed jerk of circular proportions.         

*insists on running powerful, complex alpha state software*
*refuses to learn how to adjust swap file and set task priorities*

Bitcoin and all altcoins except XMR run on her emachine.

I thought all users were welcome, not just uber geeks.

All users are welcome, but being an uber geek doesn't hurt.  True for Bitcoin and also true for Monero.

If you tried running a full BTC node on granny's emachine, the hard drive would make sad clicking noises, then the entire thing would melt down into an angry puddle of plastic, wires, and toxic fumes.

Those who wish to run unoptimized powerful new software should learn to upgrade their toaster's hardware or get the most out of its OS.  That's how you become an uber geek.   

[ArticMine]

Omg, granny's recertified e-machines Simpron won't play Crysis 5 in Quad HD and torrent muh furry pr0n and resync Munero from scratch ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!1!!!!`1~`!!1  
Obviously, this means Monero is teh huge failed jerk of circular proportions.      

*insists on running powerful, complex alpha state software*
*refuses to learn how to adjust swap file and set task priorities*

Bitcoin and all altcoins except XMR run on her emachine.

I thought all users were welcome, not just uber geeks.

All users are welcome, but being an uber geek doesn't hurt.  True for Bitcoin and also true for Monero.

If you tried running a full BTC node on granny's emachine, the hard drive would make sad clicking noises, then the entire thing would melt down into an angry puddle of plastic, wires, and toxic fumes.

Those who wish to run unoptimized powerful new software should learn to upgrade their toaster's hardware or get the most out of its OS.  That's how you become an uber geek.  

Defenestration is the answer here.

Granny's eMachine is probably upgradable to 4GB RAM and likely runs Windows Vista. Replace the stock Windows Vista with GNU/Linux 64bit or 32bit PAE kernel and Monero will run fine. Once the hardware is freed from having to accommodate the DRM in Windows Vista a lot of the problems are solved. The saving in needless propriety software licenses can easily pay for the extra RAM.

By the way I run a XBT full node using a GNU/Linux OS on a 10+ year old laptop that still has its Windows 2000 logo and a built in floppy drive. No angry puddle of molten plastic or toxic fumes yet.

[btc-mike]

Omg, granny's recertified e-machines Simpron won't play Crysis 5 in Quad HD and torrent muh furry pr0n and resync Munero from scratch ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!1!!!!`1~`!!1  
Obviously, this means Monero is teh huge failed jerk of circular proportions.      

*insists on running powerful, complex alpha state software*
*refuses to learn how to adjust swap file and set task priorities*

Bitcoin and all altcoins except XMR run on her emachine.

I thought all users were welcome, not just uber geeks.

All users are welcome, but being an uber geek doesn't hurt.  True for Bitcoin and also true for Monero.

If you tried running a full BTC node on granny's emachine, the hard drive would make sad clicking noises, then the entire thing would melt down into an angry puddle of plastic, wires, and toxic fumes.

Those who wish to run unoptimized powerful new software should learn to upgrade their toaster's hardware or get the most out of its OS.  That's how you become an uber geek.  

Defenestration is the answer here.

Granny's eMachine is probably upgradable to 4GB RAM and likely runs Windows Vista. Replace the stock Windows Vista with GNU/Linux 64bit or 32bit PAE kernel and Monero will run fine. Once the hardware is freed from having to accommodate the DRM in Windows Vista a lot of the problems are solved. The saving in needless propriety software licenses can easily pay for the extra RAM.

By the way I run a XBT full node using a GNU/Linux OS on a 10+ year old laptop that still has its Windows 2000 logo and a built in floppy drive. No angry puddle of molten plastic or toxic fumes yet.

Thank you for the vocabulary lesson but most computer users are dumb. They do not know how to change the OS, adjust the VM settings or even upgrade the RAM. Either it works or it doesn't. A higher percentage of users on this forum can do all that, but there are still many that can't. Congratulations on running XBT on bare minimum hw, that does not apply to the majority of users here.

Additionally, there are users in developing countries (China, India, etc) that don't have the the $ to upgrade their toaster. They get left out of XMR fun.

In order to continue attracting the most number of new users, the database update would need to be completed.

[arnuschky]

I already posted this in the monero topic, but I think it's worth posting here as well. I have parsed the ANN topic for monero, boolberry, bytecoin, ducknote and darkcoin. Figured it would be interesting to see these results.

I put them into tables and graphs so its a little easier to compare.

Thanks a bunch TheKoziTwo and bobabouey2, very helpful.

[arnuschky]

I have parsed the ANN topics ...

Programmatically? Source code available?

Yes, in PHP. I did not make this code to be public so it's crap and pretty messy, but if you want it here it is anyway:

Code:

https://mega.co.nz/#!RgtBGYgL!Qg7n540VNadNhTa1eaIJj3xdDVCY79mqDROdfnjAI6c

Bit OT, but is there a reliable library that parses the forum (all of it)? Does anyone
know how eg http://blockchained.com/ works?

[dunchy]

I have parsed the ANN topics ...

Programmatically? Source code available?

Yes, in PHP. I did not make this code to be public so it's crap and pretty messy, but if you want it here it is anyway:

Code:

https://mega.co.nz/#!RgtBGYgL!Qg7n540VNadNhTa1eaIJj3xdDVCY79mqDROdfnjAI6c

Bit OT, but is there a reliable library that parses the forum (all of it)? Does anyone
know how eg http://blockchained.com/ works?

I'm also interested in this if anyone can point to some topic or answer directly? It's not only blockchained , one guy is running a completely paralel forum (https://bitcointa.lk/) with all afterward deleted posts, so that you can track if a user was removing his posts here.

I have a crazy idea to do a text mining / dictionary analysis on some users/threads. Is it possible for someone not having admin access, to extract threads from back-end not to parse the html?

[Este Nuno]

I have parsed the ANN topics ...

Programmatically? Source code available?

Yes, in PHP. I did not make this code to be public so it's crap and pretty messy, but if you want it here it is anyway:

Code:

https://mega.co.nz/#!RgtBGYgL!Qg7n540VNadNhTa1eaIJj3xdDVCY79mqDROdfnjAI6c

Bit OT, but is there a reliable library that parses the forum (all of it)? Does anyone
know how eg http://blockchained.com/ works?

I'm also interested in this if anyone can point to some topic or answer directly? It's not only blockchained , one guy is running a completely paralel forum (https://bitcointa.lk/) with all afterward deleted posts, so that you can track if a user was removing his posts here.

I have a crazy idea to do a text mining / dictionary analysis on some users/threads. Is it possible for someone not having admin access, to extract threads from back-end not to parse the html?

I'm also interested in this, so I started a thread where we can go discuss it:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=777758

[smooth]

In light of the recent Satoshi hack it made me start thinking about the bitcoin "backup coin".

How long until from a technical perspective a cryptonote coin (Probably Monero or Boolberry) can handle the # of addresses & transaction volume of bitcoin?  (Knowing that litecoin COULD is partially where I believe it's value comes from)

That´s no problem to handle from a technical perspective.

So Monero can immediately handle 5 million accounts and 100,000 tx/day?

Number of accounts is not an issue.

100K tx/day (more than Bitcoin BTW, but perhaps you intended to allow for growth and/or daily variation) is approximately one transaction per second, which is not an issue at all in terms of bandwidth or CPU processing. The block size would grow to accommodate the transactions, and the one thing we've seen from the recent attacks is that the block size growth works. There is a soft cap on the block size that was added to the implementation (not the protocol) but that can be raised easily, and the current cap would likely accommodate about 70K average sized tx per day (more than Bitcoin most days).

It becomes a bit of an issue in terms of storage for the blockchain, at about 12 GB per month, but not prohibitive (multi-TB drives are readily available and cheap). Memory would quickly become a problem so the database is a requirement here.

As a stopgap, larger servers could still handle a RAM blockchain for a year or longer, but this isn't useful without some sort of lightweight clients (that don't exist). Exchange wallets would still be usable, as long as exchanges have a large server to run the Monero node and wallet. But this becomes quite centralized, so finishing the database support is much better.

You won't be running a full node on a cheap laptop, although Moore's law (and friends) means cheap laptops might catch up. (You couldn't run today's version of a Bitcoin full node on a cheap laptop from 5 years ago; it is possible to run on one now, though somewhat painful.)

tldr. Database becomes more urgent. Some growing pains would probably show up. But yes it would work.

[arnuschky]

I'm also interested in this, so I started a thread where we can go discuss it:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=777758

Thanks!

[aminorex]

In order to continue attracting the most number of new users, the database update would need to be completed.

Absolutely, totally true and correct.  

Now can we please go a 4 pages without  any more whinging about it?  (Not pointed at you specifically, btc-mike.)

Here's a proposal:  Anyone whinging for the next week, who hasn't donated at least 100 XMR to the core address (cf. XMR OP), gets whacked.