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Author Topic: NEM Official Non-Moderated Thread [Updates & Discussion]  (Read 75272 times)
rockethead
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June 13, 2014, 05:34:59 AM
 #61

UtopianFuture did not scam anyone.  What he did was equivalent to buying fake likes on Facebook and Twitter.  All he did was create sockpuppet accounts, to pad popularity in the initial weeks of NEM, and he later took them off the stakeholder list.  This is a tactic done by practically every coin out there.  Satoshi likely had a dozen aliases in 2009 to promote Bitcoin.

Think hard about it - UtopianFuture had nothing to do with the taint analysis (others were in charge and it was open to anyone willing to volunteer).  If UtopianFuture still had his sock puppets then he would had been busted hard, no way (under any fantasy scenario) could he had kept 100s of sockpuppets (let alone a dozen or five of them).

UtopianFuture at best probably only had 2 to 5 sockpuppets total (later removed) but now he has zero and persumably no developer stake anymore.  

You don't know any of this. All of your words are 100% conjecture.

No, they are not.  Anyone who is familiar with NEM would know that we had an open, transparent, taint analysis which last for several months.  Anyone was able to review the list of stakeholders and weed out sockpuppets, hundreds were removed that way.  UF's sockpuppet accounts were gone from the list before taint analysis began and the registrations ended.

You keep trolling and insisting that UtopianFuture had 100s of sockpuppets but it's a rhetorical fallacy as taint analysis would had weeded him out months ago, and that hypothetical scandal which would way worse than UtopianFuture padding fake popularity in NEM back in January.

The reality is this - NEM has over 1000 veteran stakeholders and it has the fairest distribution in crypto history.  That's compared to your NxT / Qora / Sim which had distributions to less than 100 accounts (of which, due to lack of taint analysis, was arguably only a dozen or so real people).
.

UF has already admitted to having more sockpuppet accounts than you are willing to admit he had, ergo, your opinion is meaningless.

Even if UF had 5, 10, hell, 50 sockpuppets the distribution would still be leaps and bounds better than any other IPO. This is honestly retarded how much attention this is getting.

If there wasn't any attention and fanfare given to all these, it would certainly have led to more greed and dishonesty. I guess all this is relative in comparison. The question we should really ask ourselves is, do we want to come clean in all these or compare ourselves with the myriad of intentional or greed driven intentions of dishonesty out there with many of these coins?

Like computer logic, honesty and fairness are binary. You either come out clean or you come out dirty. Doesn't matter who is more tainted and therefore one should not then say, "There are many more crooks out there that are even worse than us". The point is there was a dishonest person, no matter how big or small it was. In reality, the person would be taken to court and most probably tried and  incriminated. That's the severity of the matter. It is no small matter and is tantamount to criminal breach of trust. What more the charter of NEM was meant to be altruistic by all measure created by the very person himself. Enough said.

So, I would recommend anyone to please refrain from defending how clean so and so is in the name of NEM. It makes one suspect that this "defender" is another sockpuppet of UP. What we really need to do is to be more vigilant and comb through the stakeholders' list and get it all tidied up.

The problem with human nature is that one can do a million good but if there is one mistake made, the person is remembered for life of his/her wrongdoing.

I would also refrain from making baseless nonsensical superfluous and emotional statements. Let bygone be bygone.

And to all the dev team, there is still room for you to correct the right from wrong as you guys have the final control and release. The Nem Stakes are nominal in value and not finally dished out as NEMs. If I were to do it, I would look at the original stakeholders list seriously and decide if there were any errors or cheating there before the release of NEM as an official coin. Of course for the 430 NemStakes that are already being traded have to be recognised as true stakeholders as they have already gone out. Of the remaining, 2.57K units, please do some due diligence on them.


How about the story of Angulimala 央掘魔羅 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angulimala)? It is said that he killed 999 people, but then reached enlightenment and was thus redeemed. In Judaism/Christianity, was not the first sin "knowing good and evil"? I don't think it is good to judge as either good or bad. Just let it be, but move forward and do the right thing.

Your first three statements are beliefs which I very often avoid. I am fortunately or unfortunately, a man of logic and facts. I must admit although my upbringing is very much influenced by Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism I won't let that cloud me. They serve as stories and lessons to learn and in life we need to do good.

But I agree with your last two statements totally. Incidentally, I did not call the judgement as the guilt was admitted in open by the person himself.

So, yes, let's move forward AND do the RIGHT THING! That's for sure!
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June 13, 2014, 05:35:21 AM
 #62

UtopianFuture did not scam anyone.  What he did was equivalent to buying fake likes on Facebook and Twitter.  All he did was create sockpuppet accounts, to pad popularity in the initial weeks of NEM, and he later took them off the stakeholder list.  This is a tactic done by practically every coin out there.  Satoshi likely had a dozen aliases in 2009 to promote Bitcoin.

Think hard about it - UtopianFuture had nothing to do with the taint analysis (others were in charge and it was open to anyone willing to volunteer).  If UtopianFuture still had his sock puppets then he would had been busted hard, no way (under any fantasy scenario) could he had kept 100s of sockpuppets (let alone a dozen or five of them).

UtopianFuture at best probably only had 2 to 5 sockpuppets total (later removed) but now he has zero and persumably no developer stake anymore.  

You don't know any of this. All of your words are 100% conjecture.

No, they are not.  Anyone who is familiar with NEM would know that we had an open, transparent, taint analysis which last for several months.  Anyone was able to review the list of stakeholders and weed out sockpuppets, hundreds were removed that way.  UF's sockpuppet accounts were gone from the list before taint analysis began and the registrations ended.

You keep trolling and insisting that UtopianFuture had 100s of sockpuppets but it's a rhetorical fallacy as taint analysis would had weeded him out months ago, and that hypothetical scandal which would way worse than UtopianFuture padding fake popularity in NEM back in January.

The reality is this - NEM has over 1000 veteran stakeholders and it has the fairest distribution in crypto history.  That's compared to your NxT / Qora / Sim which had distributions to less than 100 accounts (of which, due to lack of taint analysis, was arguably only a dozen or so real people).
.

UF has already admitted to having more sockpuppet accounts than you are willing to admit he had, ergo, your opinion is meaningless.

Even if UF had 5, 10, hell, 50 sockpuppets the distribution would still be leaps and bounds better than any other IPO. This is honestly retarded how much attention this is getting.

If there wasn't any attention and fanfare given to all these, it would certainly have led to more greed and dishonesty. I guess all this is relative in comparison. The question we should really ask ourselves is, do we want to come clean in all these or compare ourselves with the myriad of intentional or greed driven intentions of dishonesty out there with many of these coins?

Like computer logic, honesty and fairness are binary. You either come out clean or you come out dirty. Doesn't matter who is more tainted and therefore one should not then say, "There are many more crooks out there that are even worse than us". The point is there was a dishonest person, no matter how big or small it was. In reality, the person would be taken to court and most probably tried and  incriminated. That's the severity of the matter. It is no small matter and is tantamount to criminal breach of trust. What more the charter of NEM was meant to be altruistic by all measure created by the very person himself. Enough said.

So, I would recommend anyone to please refrain from defending how clean so and so is in the name of NEM. It makes one suspect that this "defender" is another sockpuppet of UP. What we really need to do is to be more vigilant and comb through the stakeholders' list and get it all tidied up.

The problem with human nature is that one can do a million good but if there is one mistake made, the person is remembered for life of his/her wrongdoing.

I would also refrain from making baseless nonsensical superfluous and emotional statements. Let bygone be bygone.

And to all the dev team, there is still room for you to correct the right from wrong as you guys have the final control and release. The Nem Stakes are nominal in value and not finally dished out as NEMs. If I were to do it, I would look at the original stakeholders list seriously and decide if there were any errors or cheating there before the release of NEM as an official coin. Of course for the 430 NemStakes that are already being traded have to be recognised as true stakeholders as they have already gone out. Of the remaining, 2.57K units, please do some due diligence on them.


How about the story of Angulimala 央掘魔羅 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angulimala)? It is said that he killed 999 people, but then reached enlightenment and was thus redeemed. In Judaism/Christianity, was not the first sin "knowing good and evil"? I don't think it is good to judge as either good or bad. Just let it be, but move forward and do the right thing.

Agree with you makoto. We need to stop digging for the dead and make smart moves in the right direction. I think we have spent enough time on the stakeholder list and even if we would spend some more time, I don't think we would find anything special. I respect UP for making the right decision, taking responsibility and stepping down, and for the enormous hard work he has put along with the dev team. Now we have work to do and things to prepare for the alpha.
nutildah
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June 13, 2014, 05:40:18 AM
 #63

If there wasn't any attention and fanfare given to all these, it would certainly have led to more greed and dishonesty. I guess all this is relative in comparison. The question we should really ask ourselves is, do we want to come clean in all these or compare ourselves with the myriad of intentional or greed driven intentions of dishonesty out there with many of these coins?

Like computer logic, honesty and fairness are binary. You either come out clean or you come out dirty. Doesn't matter who is more tainted and therefore one should not then say, "There are many more crooks out there that are even worse than us". The point is there was a dishonest person, no matter how big or small it was. In reality, the person would be taken to court and most probably tried and  incriminated. That's the severity of the matter. It is no small matter and is tantamount to criminal breach of trust. What more the charter of NEM was meant to be altruistic by all measure created by the very person himself. Enough said.

So, I would recommend anyone to please refrain from defending how clean so and so is in the name of NEM. It makes one suspect that this "defender" is another sockpuppet of UP. What we really need to do is to be more vigilant and comb through the stakeholders' list and get it all tidied up.

The problem with human nature is that one can do a million good but if there is one mistake made, the person is remembered for life of his/her wrongdoing.

I would also refrain from making baseless nonsensical superfluous and emotional statements. Let bygone be bygone.

Thank you for expressing my main concerns in a more eloquent and professional manner, skills I will try to be more capable of moving forward.

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makoto1337
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June 13, 2014, 05:43:00 AM
 #64

UtopianFuture did not scam anyone.  What he did was equivalent to buying fake likes on Facebook and Twitter.  All he did was create sockpuppet accounts, to pad popularity in the initial weeks of NEM, and he later took them off the stakeholder list.  This is a tactic done by practically every coin out there.  Satoshi likely had a dozen aliases in 2009 to promote Bitcoin.

Think hard about it - UtopianFuture had nothing to do with the taint analysis (others were in charge and it was open to anyone willing to volunteer).  If UtopianFuture still had his sock puppets then he would had been busted hard, no way (under any fantasy scenario) could he had kept 100s of sockpuppets (let alone a dozen or five of them).

UtopianFuture at best probably only had 2 to 5 sockpuppets total (later removed) but now he has zero and persumably no developer stake anymore.  

You don't know any of this. All of your words are 100% conjecture.

No, they are not.  Anyone who is familiar with NEM would know that we had an open, transparent, taint analysis which last for several months.  Anyone was able to review the list of stakeholders and weed out sockpuppets, hundreds were removed that way.  UF's sockpuppet accounts were gone from the list before taint analysis began and the registrations ended.

You keep trolling and insisting that UtopianFuture had 100s of sockpuppets but it's a rhetorical fallacy as taint analysis would had weeded him out months ago, and that hypothetical scandal which would way worse than UtopianFuture padding fake popularity in NEM back in January.

The reality is this - NEM has over 1000 veteran stakeholders and it has the fairest distribution in crypto history.  That's compared to your NxT / Qora / Sim which had distributions to less than 100 accounts (of which, due to lack of taint analysis, was arguably only a dozen or so real people).
.

UF has already admitted to having more sockpuppet accounts than you are willing to admit he had, ergo, your opinion is meaningless.

Even if UF had 5, 10, hell, 50 sockpuppets the distribution would still be leaps and bounds better than any other IPO. This is honestly retarded how much attention this is getting.

If there wasn't any attention and fanfare given to all these, it would certainly have led to more greed and dishonesty. I guess all this is relative in comparison. The question we should really ask ourselves is, do we want to come clean in all these or compare ourselves with the myriad of intentional or greed driven intentions of dishonesty out there with many of these coins?

Like computer logic, honesty and fairness are binary. You either come out clean or you come out dirty. Doesn't matter who is more tainted and therefore one should not then say, "There are many more crooks out there that are even worse than us". The point is there was a dishonest person, no matter how big or small it was. In reality, the person would be taken to court and most probably tried and  incriminated. That's the severity of the matter. It is no small matter and is tantamount to criminal breach of trust. What more the charter of NEM was meant to be altruistic by all measure created by the very person himself. Enough said.

So, I would recommend anyone to please refrain from defending how clean so and so is in the name of NEM. It makes one suspect that this "defender" is another sockpuppet of UP. What we really need to do is to be more vigilant and comb through the stakeholders' list and get it all tidied up.

The problem with human nature is that one can do a million good but if there is one mistake made, the person is remembered for life of his/her wrongdoing.

I would also refrain from making baseless nonsensical superfluous and emotional statements. Let bygone be bygone.

And to all the dev team, there is still room for you to correct the right from wrong as you guys have the final control and release. The Nem Stakes are nominal in value and not finally dished out as NEMs. If I were to do it, I would look at the original stakeholders list seriously and decide if there were any errors or cheating there before the release of NEM as an official coin. Of course for the 430 NemStakes that are already being traded have to be recognised as true stakeholders as they have already gone out. Of the remaining, 2.57K units, please do some due diligence on them.


How about the story of Angulimala 央掘魔羅 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angulimala)? It is said that he killed 999 people, but then reached enlightenment and was thus redeemed. In Judaism/Christianity, was not the first sin "knowing good and evil"? I don't think it is good to judge as either good or bad. Just let it be, but move forward and do the right thing.

Your first three statements are beliefs which I very often avoid. I am fortunately or unfortunately, a man of logic and facts. I must admit although my upbringing is very much influenced by Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism I won't let that cloud me. They serve as stories and lessons to learn and in life we need to do good.

But I agree with your last two statements totally. Incidentally, I did not call the judgement as the guilt was admitted in open by the person himself.

So, yes, let's move forward AND do the RIGHT THING! That's for sure!

Glad we can agree on that Cheesy

makoto1337
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June 13, 2014, 05:44:39 AM
 #65

I'll be happy to answer any questions anyone else has relating to NEM. I think Jaguar or Gimre will come and start a new official thread and we will regroup in a day or two.

Is UP still getting same amount of dev stakes?



No idea, but that will have to be decided in the days to come. UP has spent a lot of his personal time and money working for NEM (more than 99% of stakeholders), so I feel he should at least get something.

I agree. He deserves some credit but not as much as Jaguar for example, but I always thought 25% reserved development stakes was way to high since not everyone on the list will claim their stakes. These unclaimed stakes could be used in future for development.

For example Nxt had 100 stakeholders and in the end only 73 came back to claim their stakes. These unclaimed coins went into different development and marketing committees. This ratio will be even higher for Nem due to 6 or 7 month delay.

I think you should rethink this strategy.


The dev team only gets 10% for half a year of work, which is not too much. The remaining amount is to keep NEM develop sustainable for at least another year and if things go well, we want to get a few people working full time on this. That is only realistically possible by reserving 25% of NEM.

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June 13, 2014, 05:45:36 AM
 #66

Last step is to update the website with the new thread.

Who can do this?

Thanks again everyone. Cheesy

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June 13, 2014, 05:50:47 AM
 #67

Well, I'm absolutely shattered. Worked through the night to get all the threads back up and running.

We sort out NEM's organisation properly, the refund and NEMstake threads are currently worthless. But at least they're there!I opened a card on the Trello board, go check it out! Meanwhile, I need sleep! Smiley

Night! Or should I say, morning... YAWN!

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xtester
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June 13, 2014, 05:55:24 AM
 #68

Well, I'm absolutely shattered. Worked through the night to get all the threads back up and running.

We sort out NEM's organisation properly, the refund and NEMstake threads are currently worthless. But at least they're there!I opened a card on the Trello board, go check it out! Meanwhile, I need sleep! Smiley

Night! Or should I say, morning... YAWN!


You did a great job, thanks.
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June 13, 2014, 05:56:40 AM
 #69

I'll be happy to answer any questions anyone else has relating to NEM. I think Jaguar or Gimre will come and start a new official thread and we will regroup in a day or two.

Is UP still getting same amount of dev stakes?



No idea, but that will have to be decided in the days to come. UP has spent a lot of his personal time and money working for NEM (more than 99% of stakeholders), so I feel he should at least get something.

I agree. He deserves some credit but not as much as Jaguar for example, but I always thought 25% reserved development stakes was way to high since not everyone on the list will claim their stakes. These unclaimed stakes could be used in future for development.

For example Nxt had 100 stakeholders and in the end only 73 came back to claim their stakes. These unclaimed coins went into different development and marketing committees. This ratio will be even higher for Nem due to 6 or 7 month delay.

I think you should rethink this strategy.


The dev team only gets 10% for half a year of work, which is not too much. The remaining amount is to keep NEM develop sustainable for at least another year and if things go well, we want to get a few people working full time on this. That is only realistically possible by reserving 25% of NEM.

Be optimistic.;-) The value of NEM will rise and the balance 15% can probably sustain for a few years. :-)

In any case, we need to come out with a sustainable ecosystem for at least 5 years before letting the ecosystem run on free wheel. You need to think about that before the floodgate opens for the official launch.
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June 13, 2014, 05:57:49 AM
 #70

Well, I'm absolutely shattered. Worked through the night to get all the threads back up and running.

We sort out NEM's organisation properly, the refund and NEMstake threads are currently worthless. But at least they're there!I opened a card on the Trello board, go check it out! Meanwhile, I need sleep! Smiley

Night! Or should I say, morning... YAWN!


Thanks for the "sleepy" work! Much appreciated.
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June 13, 2014, 06:00:03 AM
 #71

Last step is to update the website with the new thread.

Who can do this?

Thanks again everyone. Cheesy

Pm me if you need one. I am here to offer. My timezone is probably 12 to 14 hours ahead. So I am not so sleepy as some. :-)
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June 13, 2014, 06:12:30 AM
 #72

Well, I'm absolutely shattered. Worked through the night to get all the threads back up and running.

We sort out NEM's organisation properly, the refund and NEMstake threads are currently worthless. But at least they're there!I opened a card on the Trello board, go check it out! Meanwhile, I need sleep! Smiley

Night! Or should I say, morning... YAWN!


Thanks for stepping up !

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June 13, 2014, 06:13:22 AM
 #73


The dev team only gets 10% for half a year of work, which is not too much. The remaining amount is to keep NEM develop sustainable for at least another year and if things go well, we want to get a few people working full time on this. That is only realistically possible by reserving 25% of NEM.

What are you going to do with unclaimed stakes where people on the list never come back to claim their stakes? These unclaimed stakes could be as high 750 to 1000 (even higher?)


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patmast3r
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June 13, 2014, 06:16:00 AM
 #74


The dev team only gets 10% for half a year of work, which is not too much. The remaining amount is to keep NEM develop sustainable for at least another year and if things go well, we want to get a few people working full time on this. That is only realistically possible by reserving 25% of NEM.

What are you going to do with unclaimed stakes where people on the list never come back to claim their stakes? These unclaimed stakes could be as high 750 to 1000 (even higher?)


Don't think it'll be that many but there are plenty of options how we could deal with them.

-another auction
-a sell to veteran memebers
-bounties
-faucet

Thruth is we'll probably discuss this once it's clear how many we're really talking about.

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June 13, 2014, 06:24:39 AM
 #75


Don't think it'll be that many but there are plenty of options how we could deal with them.

-another auction
-a sell to veteran memebers
-bounties
-faucet

Thruth is we'll probably discuss this once it's clear how many we're really talking about.

It will be very high. Nxt was launched only 2 months after the announcement and 25% never showed up. 25% of 30000 is 750 (at least and real numbers could be higher as here we have 7 months delay)

This exactly is the problem! Auctions would mean stakeholders will have trouble selling anything for months after the launch when there are still 750 million Nem being auctioned off.

bounties and fauces (25% .. 1 billion Nem in faucets, really fucking serious? )

That's why I said instead of reserving 15% for future  development from the start, you should use unclaimed coins for that purpose. There would be a lot of them, I am pretty sure about that
 



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June 13, 2014, 06:27:41 AM
 #76

So guys. Can i buy now nem stake and get my coins after launch? or it full closed?
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June 13, 2014, 06:33:02 AM
 #77


Don't think it'll be that many but there are plenty of options how we could deal with them.

-another auction
-a sell to veteran memebers
-bounties
-faucet

Thruth is we'll probably discuss this once it's clear how many we're really talking about.

It will be very high. Nxt was launched only 2 months after the announcement and 25% never showed up. 25% of 30000 is 750 (at least and real numbers could be higher as here we have 7 months delay)

This exactly is the problem! Auctions would mean stakeholders will have trouble selling anything for months after the launch when there are still 750 million Nem being auctioned off.

bounties and fauces (25% .. 1 billion Nem in faucets, really fucking serious? )

That's why I said instead of reserving 15% for future  development from the start, you should use unclaimed coins for that purpose. There would be a lot of them, I am pretty sure about that
 


Still possible to do that. Not a bad idea actually.

Eadeqa
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June 13, 2014, 06:35:51 AM
 #78


Don't think it'll be that many but there are plenty of options how we could deal with them.

-another auction
-a sell to veteran memebers
-bounties
-faucet

Thruth is we'll probably discuss this once it's clear how many we're really talking about.

It will be very high. Nxt was launched only 2 months after the announcement and 25% never showed up. 25% of 30000 is 750 (at least and real numbers could be higher as here we have 7 months delay)

This exactly is the problem! Auctions would mean stakeholders will have trouble selling anything for months after the launch when there are still 750 million Nem being auctioned off.

bounties and fauces (25% .. 1 billion Nem in faucets, really fucking serious? )

That's why I said instead of reserving 15% for future  development from the start, you should use unclaimed coins for that purpose. There would be a lot of them, I am pretty sure about that
 


Still possible to do that. Not a bad idea actually.

Exactly.

10% for developers
85% for stakeholders of 30000
Unclaimed coins go to future development (split it between marketing, infrastructure, and development committees -- three different groups).

Then you don't have to deal with unclaimed coins.
 


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June 13, 2014, 06:36:39 AM
 #79

So guys. Can i buy now nem stake and get my coins after launch? or it full closed?

Sure you can buy, nothing is closed, NEM is moving forward.
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June 13, 2014, 06:38:37 AM
 #80


Don't think it'll be that many but there are plenty of options how we could deal with them.

-another auction
-a sell to veteran memebers
-bounties
-faucet

Thruth is we'll probably discuss this once it's clear how many we're really talking about.

It will be very high. Nxt was launched only 2 months after the announcement and 25% never showed up. 25% of 30000 is 750 (at least and real numbers could be higher as here we have 7 months delay)

This exactly is the problem! Auctions would mean stakeholders will have trouble selling anything for months after the launch when there are still 750 million Nem being auctioned off.

bounties and fauces (25% .. 1 billion Nem in faucets, really fucking serious? )

That's why I said instead of reserving 15% for future  development from the start, you should use unclaimed coins for that purpose. There would be a lot of them, I am pretty sure about that
 


Still possible to do that. Not a bad idea actually.

It is ok. We need money for promo and marketing and competitions (maybe), social impact investments. So many things can be done with it. I am least of all worried. We should only worry about it when we cross the bridge.

NEM may be different from Nxt for whatever reasons.
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