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amytheplanarshift
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September 29, 2014, 08:31:55 AM |
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Just throwing around ideas and brainstorming.
Each account number has a last number or letter. It could be a lottery, a random letter or number could be chosen during the harvesting process and then the first 10 nodes that check in with the harvester that have that chosen random letter/number as a last number/letter ending their account number get the token. To game the system a person would have to set up a lot of nodes, which ultimately would be good for the network. That is 1/36 chance of getting the token. If you want to make it more scarce, then the last two digits of an account number would make a 1/1296 chance. Surely somebody wouldn't set up that many nodes just to get some tokens that make a difference but not that much of a difference.
I guess to implement this there would have to be some master nodes that as a part of their duties connect to as many lower level nodes as possible (I am guessing either at least 36 or 1296 if each master node was responsible for each possibility, or another route could be that master nodes just connect to whoever). I think NXT works that way. Anybody running a client is kind of like a node, but not really because it is actually more complicated to set up a real node and once the real nodes are set up, they are somehow a little more trusted. At this point I am not sure but it seems like the system would be moving away from true decentralization and more towards distributed depending on exactly how this was done. I'd rather hope NEM is fully decentralized.
Interesting ideas, but I think any logic that relies on the number of nodes to determine the chance of getting a token to determine importance is a bad idea. The reason being that it makes it easier for large institutions to "game the system" as you said. While it is quite a chore for an individual to set up a lot of different nodes with unique IP addresses, it's not so difficult for a large institution who has access to the hardware and IP addresses to do so, and that to me is a threat. Unless I'm just being paranoid.  |
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SomethingElse
Full Member
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Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Looking for the next big thing
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September 29, 2014, 08:55:23 AM |
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Interesting ideas, but I think any logic that relies on the number of nodes to determine the chance of getting a token to determine importance is a bad idea. The reason being that it makes it easier for large institutions to "game the system" as you said. While it is quite a chore for an individual to set up a lot of different nodes with unique IP addresses, it's not so difficult for a large institution who has access to the hardware and IP addresses to do so, and that to me is a threat. Unless I'm just being paranoid. You are not just being paranoid. If a large selfish institution can beat the system by controlling nodes, it will. We are seeing something similar with mining pools consolidating the power right now in Bitcoin. NEM needs to be designed from day one to avoid these kinds of things. |
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pcarmona
Member
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Activity: 61
Merit: 10
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September 29, 2014, 06:47:08 PM |
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Haven't received the token yet...
Should I be a little concerned about it?
I mean... I do not have a NXT AE token.
The last post about "NEM Redemption Process" says that I have 1 month to register ('till 22/oct, I guess).
I do want to do this ASAP.
Any news about that?
Sorry if it is a repost... I haven't had time to see this topic often!
Regards!
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xtester
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September 29, 2014, 06:52:24 PM |
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Haven't received the token yet...
Should I be a little concerned about it?
I mean... I do not have a NXT AE token.
The last post about "NEM Redemption Process" says that I have 1 month to register ('till 22/oct, I guess).
I do want to do this ASAP.
Any news about that?
Sorry if it is a repost... I haven't had time to see this topic often!
Regards!
Hi pcarmona, The redemption process has so far been only posted for information and discussion purposes and has not begun yet. We will post multiple messages once the period begins and make sure people hear about it. No tokens have been sent yet but we'll make sure you'll hear once everything starts. |
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mrvegad
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September 30, 2014, 02:49:40 AM |
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Proof Of Importance? based on what?
POI is based on serveral things: How much NEM you have, how much NEM you are transferring to others, how much NEM other are transferring to you. The exact formula is not set in stone so far. That's we are a little vage how it works in details. I would really like to see a third aspect which is how long the NEM client/node has been running put in the mix too. This could help to encourage more people with smaller amounts of NEM to also turn their client on and leave it on in the background. Hopefully someday the network will be supported by lots and lots of regular people. Node Coin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=590421.0 has gone with client time (one point per second) and spending score (one point per coin spent) and then which ever Node has the highest score is more likely to harvest. I think this is good, but they are missing the "coins received" and traditional Proof of Stake found in NEM. Crypti has also added proof of merchant, which means that special merchants that register can get a discount on transaction fees. By doing this, they can also be rated and won't be anonymous. A trait that we actually want when buying something from another. Basically as buyers we want to be anonymous and have our privacy protected, but at the same time we want the exact opposite for merchants. We want merchants out in the open and their history and reputation easily known. Basically, we want to know who we are sending our money too and what kind of person they are. This power in reputation has been a huge part of the success of Amazon and Ebay and really should also be incorporated into crypto too. I would call this PoS^4 Proof of Stake - Money held in account Proof of Spend - Money going in and out Proof of Service - How long a node has been supporting the network Proof of Status - Registering with the network and allowing a reputation status You wouldn't want to choose harvesters based on just running a node, as that is too easy to attack (you don't want to make it easy for people to be able to control when they harvest). However, we are currently trying to find a way to reward nodes who are active and also have a reputation for sending valid data (as determined by eigentrust++). The problem is, how do you keep track of the active nodes that are online at any given time? How about sending out rewards to nodes just once a month? Using data from eigentrust++, nodes who have gained a certain reputation level (this is where the smart kids come in and crunch numbers to find that level) get a share of the rewards which are only payed out once a month and then it starts all over. Let's say there is a 25,000 NEM reward each month for nodes that have met the required reputation level, they would each receive an equal share which would be payed out at the beginning of the following month. |
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makoto1337
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1000
I am not Dorian Nakamoto.
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September 30, 2014, 05:41:41 AM |
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Proof Of Importance? based on what?
POI is based on serveral things: How much NEM you have, how much NEM you are transferring to others, how much NEM other are transferring to you. The exact formula is not set in stone so far. That's we are a little vage how it works in details. I would really like to see a third aspect which is how long the NEM client/node has been running put in the mix too. This could help to encourage more people with smaller amounts of NEM to also turn their client on and leave it on in the background. Hopefully someday the network will be supported by lots and lots of regular people. Node Coin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=590421.0 has gone with client time (one point per second) and spending score (one point per coin spent) and then which ever Node has the highest score is more likely to harvest. I think this is good, but they are missing the "coins received" and traditional Proof of Stake found in NEM. Crypti has also added proof of merchant, which means that special merchants that register can get a discount on transaction fees. By doing this, they can also be rated and won't be anonymous. A trait that we actually want when buying something from another. Basically as buyers we want to be anonymous and have our privacy protected, but at the same time we want the exact opposite for merchants. We want merchants out in the open and their history and reputation easily known. Basically, we want to know who we are sending our money too and what kind of person they are. This power in reputation has been a huge part of the success of Amazon and Ebay and really should also be incorporated into crypto too. I would call this PoS^4 Proof of Stake - Money held in account Proof of Spend - Money going in and out Proof of Service - How long a node has been supporting the network Proof of Status - Registering with the network and allowing a reputation status You wouldn't want to choose harvesters based on just running a node, as that is too easy to attack (you don't want to make it easy for people to be able to control when they harvest). However, we are currently trying to find a way to reward nodes who are active and also have a reputation for sending valid data (as determined by eigentrust++). The problem is, how do you keep track of the active nodes that are online at any given time? How about sending out rewards to nodes just once a month? Using data from eigentrust++, nodes who have gained a certain reputation level (this is where the smart kids come in and crunch numbers to find that level) get a share of the rewards which are only payed out once a month and then it starts all over. Let's say there is a 25,000 NEM reward each month for nodes that have met the required reputation level, they would each receive an equal share which would be payed out at the beginning of the following month. The problem is that eigentrust++ values are local and relative, not global and absolute. Like I said, it's a hard problem  Does anyone know how Node does it? |
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patmast3r
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September 30, 2014, 06:45:27 AM |
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Proof Of Importance? based on what?
POI is based on serveral things: How much NEM you have, how much NEM you are transferring to others, how much NEM other are transferring to you. The exact formula is not set in stone so far. That's we are a little vage how it works in details. I would really like to see a third aspect which is how long the NEM client/node has been running put in the mix too. This could help to encourage more people with smaller amounts of NEM to also turn their client on and leave it on in the background. Hopefully someday the network will be supported by lots and lots of regular people. Node Coin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=590421.0 has gone with client time (one point per second) and spending score (one point per coin spent) and then which ever Node has the highest score is more likely to harvest. I think this is good, but they are missing the "coins received" and traditional Proof of Stake found in NEM. Crypti has also added proof of merchant, which means that special merchants that register can get a discount on transaction fees. By doing this, they can also be rated and won't be anonymous. A trait that we actually want when buying something from another. Basically as buyers we want to be anonymous and have our privacy protected, but at the same time we want the exact opposite for merchants. We want merchants out in the open and their history and reputation easily known. Basically, we want to know who we are sending our money too and what kind of person they are. This power in reputation has been a huge part of the success of Amazon and Ebay and really should also be incorporated into crypto too. I would call this PoS^4 Proof of Stake - Money held in account Proof of Spend - Money going in and out Proof of Service - How long a node has been supporting the network Proof of Status - Registering with the network and allowing a reputation status You wouldn't want to choose harvesters based on just running a node, as that is too easy to attack (you don't want to make it easy for people to be able to control when they harvest). However, we are currently trying to find a way to reward nodes who are active and also have a reputation for sending valid data (as determined by eigentrust++). The problem is, how do you keep track of the active nodes that are online at any given time? How about sending out rewards to nodes just once a month? Using data from eigentrust++, nodes who have gained a certain reputation level (this is where the smart kids come in and crunch numbers to find that level) get a share of the rewards which are only payed out once a month and then it starts all over. Let's say there is a 25,000 NEM reward each month for nodes that have met the required reputation level, they would each receive an equal share which would be payed out at the beginning of the following month. The problem is that eigentrust++ values are local and relative, not global and absolute. Like I said, it's a hard problem Does anyone know how Node does it? They are only going by uptime and noone knows how they do even that. All i know is a node broadcasts when he's coming online - that's the info that was given out. How that is agreed upon or any further details are yet to be released afaik. |
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SomethingElse
Full Member
Offline
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Looking for the next big thing
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September 30, 2014, 06:52:25 AM |
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Node just uses a kind of point scoring system
For every second a node is online, it gets a point.
For every coin that is sent, a node gets a point.
Whichever node has the most points (sent coins + time online) has a greater chance of forging. It is still a little bit random, but basically the node with close to the highest points will harvest.
After the block is harvested, then the node's points are set to 0, and it starts over again.
There is no points for stake. So if I have even one Node in my account and I leave it running, it will get lots of points, even if there are no transactions. Just leaving it going one day is 86,400 points. I think the original stakeholders have like 600,000 Nodes. So if a person spends their coins, their node gets a big bonus, but only like a weeks worth or something. It is totally disadvantageous to move the coins as the fees are quite high. Somebody is very likely to pay much more in fees than they make forging a random block.
It is basically a Proof of keeping the node online, with a little bonus for people spending. At least that is how I understood the white paper.
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jabo38
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
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September 30, 2014, 10:52:07 AM |
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That is a really interesting concept. What I think would be really neat would be a NEMshift. Basically some kind exchange/plugin/app that could be used to spend NEM at any place that accepts bitcoin. This would be a really cool project for Altnemo I think. I would love to see Paypal accept BItcoin and then NEM be able to plug-in to Paypal via a NEMshift. I have no idea how it could be done, but I think it would be a really cool project for Altnemo. What we really need is stores and ATMs that deal in NEM directly, but something like a NEMshift would be a good stopgap. |
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mrvegad
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September 30, 2014, 12:53:39 PM |
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Proof Of Importance? based on what?
POI is based on serveral things: How much NEM you have, how much NEM you are transferring to others, how much NEM other are transferring to you. The exact formula is not set in stone so far. That's we are a little vage how it works in details. I would really like to see a third aspect which is how long the NEM client/node has been running put in the mix too. This could help to encourage more people with smaller amounts of NEM to also turn their client on and leave it on in the background. Hopefully someday the network will be supported by lots and lots of regular people. Node Coin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=590421.0 has gone with client time (one point per second) and spending score (one point per coin spent) and then which ever Node has the highest score is more likely to harvest. I think this is good, but they are missing the "coins received" and traditional Proof of Stake found in NEM. Crypti has also added proof of merchant, which means that special merchants that register can get a discount on transaction fees. By doing this, they can also be rated and won't be anonymous. A trait that we actually want when buying something from another. Basically as buyers we want to be anonymous and have our privacy protected, but at the same time we want the exact opposite for merchants. We want merchants out in the open and their history and reputation easily known. Basically, we want to know who we are sending our money too and what kind of person they are. This power in reputation has been a huge part of the success of Amazon and Ebay and really should also be incorporated into crypto too. I would call this PoS^4 Proof of Stake - Money held in account Proof of Spend - Money going in and out Proof of Service - How long a node has been supporting the network Proof of Status - Registering with the network and allowing a reputation status You wouldn't want to choose harvesters based on just running a node, as that is too easy to attack (you don't want to make it easy for people to be able to control when they harvest). However, we are currently trying to find a way to reward nodes who are active and also have a reputation for sending valid data (as determined by eigentrust++). The problem is, how do you keep track of the active nodes that are online at any given time? How about sending out rewards to nodes just once a month? Using data from eigentrust++, nodes who have gained a certain reputation level (this is where the smart kids come in and crunch numbers to find that level) get a share of the rewards which are only payed out once a month and then it starts all over. Let's say there is a 25,000 NEM reward each month for nodes that have met the required reputation level, they would each receive an equal share which would be payed out at the beginning of the following month. The problem is that eigentrust++ values are local and relative, not global and absolute. Like I said, it's a hard problem Does anyone know how Node does it? Here is a very quick overview on what emuine does: Hatchers are currently rewarded for their work with a) tx fees b) rewards. Rewards are paid out when the emunie system decides to create new EMU. 50% of all newly created EMU are paid out to hatchers. These 50% are divided among the hatchers in proportion to the hatching work they have done. |
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patmast3r
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September 30, 2014, 02:03:39 PM |
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Proof Of Importance? based on what?
POI is based on serveral things: How much NEM you have, how much NEM you are transferring to others, how much NEM other are transferring to you. The exact formula is not set in stone so far. That's we are a little vage how it works in details. I would really like to see a third aspect which is how long the NEM client/node has been running put in the mix too. This could help to encourage more people with smaller amounts of NEM to also turn their client on and leave it on in the background. Hopefully someday the network will be supported by lots and lots of regular people. Node Coin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=590421.0 has gone with client time (one point per second) and spending score (one point per coin spent) and then which ever Node has the highest score is more likely to harvest. I think this is good, but they are missing the "coins received" and traditional Proof of Stake found in NEM. Crypti has also added proof of merchant, which means that special merchants that register can get a discount on transaction fees. By doing this, they can also be rated and won't be anonymous. A trait that we actually want when buying something from another. Basically as buyers we want to be anonymous and have our privacy protected, but at the same time we want the exact opposite for merchants. We want merchants out in the open and their history and reputation easily known. Basically, we want to know who we are sending our money too and what kind of person they are. This power in reputation has been a huge part of the success of Amazon and Ebay and really should also be incorporated into crypto too. I would call this PoS^4 Proof of Stake - Money held in account Proof of Spend - Money going in and out Proof of Service - How long a node has been supporting the network Proof of Status - Registering with the network and allowing a reputation status You wouldn't want to choose harvesters based on just running a node, as that is too easy to attack (you don't want to make it easy for people to be able to control when they harvest). However, we are currently trying to find a way to reward nodes who are active and also have a reputation for sending valid data (as determined by eigentrust++). The problem is, how do you keep track of the active nodes that are online at any given time? How about sending out rewards to nodes just once a month? Using data from eigentrust++, nodes who have gained a certain reputation level (this is where the smart kids come in and crunch numbers to find that level) get a share of the rewards which are only payed out once a month and then it starts all over. Let's say there is a 25,000 NEM reward each month for nodes that have met the required reputation level, they would each receive an equal share which would be payed out at the beginning of the following month. The problem is that eigentrust++ values are local and relative, not global and absolute. Like I said, it's a hard problem Does anyone know how Node does it? Here is a very quick overview on what emuine does: Hatchers are currently rewarded for their work with a) tx fees b) rewards. Rewards are paid out when the emunie system decides to create new EMU. 50% of all newly created EMU are paid out to hatchers. These 50% are divided among the hatchers in proportion to the hatching work they have done. Afaik hatcher are special nodes so emunie is not 100% decentralized. I'm not saying that's a bad thing - just pointing out the difference. Paying out rewards to all harvesting nodes isn't a bad idea. It would however introduce inflation. What does the rest think about this ? Inflation in NEM ? If it's a very small inflation it could be a good thing. |
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jabo38
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
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September 30, 2014, 02:11:17 PM |
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What does the rest think about this ? Inflation in NEM ? If it's a very small inflation it could be a good thing.
I haven't studied this at all. My guess is a very small amount might be okay. |
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jabo38
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
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September 30, 2014, 02:28:58 PM |
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I just noticed I am a Sr. member now. Hahahaha  |
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mrvegad
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September 30, 2014, 03:25:26 PM |
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Proof Of Importance? based on what?
POI is based on serveral things: How much NEM you have, how much NEM you are transferring to others, how much NEM other are transferring to you. The exact formula is not set in stone so far. That's we are a little vage how it works in details. I would really like to see a third aspect which is how long the NEM client/node has been running put in the mix too. This could help to encourage more people with smaller amounts of NEM to also turn their client on and leave it on in the background. Hopefully someday the network will be supported by lots and lots of regular people. Node Coin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=590421.0 has gone with client time (one point per second) and spending score (one point per coin spent) and then which ever Node has the highest score is more likely to harvest. I think this is good, but they are missing the "coins received" and traditional Proof of Stake found in NEM. Crypti has also added proof of merchant, which means that special merchants that register can get a discount on transaction fees. By doing this, they can also be rated and won't be anonymous. A trait that we actually want when buying something from another. Basically as buyers we want to be anonymous and have our privacy protected, but at the same time we want the exact opposite for merchants. We want merchants out in the open and their history and reputation easily known. Basically, we want to know who we are sending our money too and what kind of person they are. This power in reputation has been a huge part of the success of Amazon and Ebay and really should also be incorporated into crypto too. I would call this PoS^4 Proof of Stake - Money held in account Proof of Spend - Money going in and out Proof of Service - How long a node has been supporting the network Proof of Status - Registering with the network and allowing a reputation status You wouldn't want to choose harvesters based on just running a node, as that is too easy to attack (you don't want to make it easy for people to be able to control when they harvest). However, we are currently trying to find a way to reward nodes who are active and also have a reputation for sending valid data (as determined by eigentrust++). The problem is, how do you keep track of the active nodes that are online at any given time? How about sending out rewards to nodes just once a month? Using data from eigentrust++, nodes who have gained a certain reputation level (this is where the smart kids come in and crunch numbers to find that level) get a share of the rewards which are only payed out once a month and then it starts all over. Let's say there is a 25,000 NEM reward each month for nodes that have met the required reputation level, they would each receive an equal share which would be payed out at the beginning of the following month. The problem is that eigentrust++ values are local and relative, not global and absolute. Like I said, it's a hard problem Does anyone know how Node does it? Here is a very quick overview on what emuine does: Hatchers are currently rewarded for their work with a) tx fees b) rewards. Rewards are paid out when the emunie system decides to create new EMU. 50% of all newly created EMU are paid out to hatchers. These 50% are divided among the hatchers in proportion to the hatching work they have done. Afaik hatcher are special nodes so emunie is not 100% decentralized. I'm not saying that's a bad thing - just pointing out the difference. Paying out rewards to all harvesting nodes isn't a bad idea. It would however introduce inflation. What does the rest think about this ? Inflation in NEM ? If it's a very small inflation it could be a good thing. Not sure why you think hatchers are special nodes, anyone can be a hatcher just like anyone can harvest. You have to be carful with inflation, if there is no way to destroy coins then inflation could get out of hand. |
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starfishi
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September 30, 2014, 03:40:48 PM |
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I just noticed I am a Sr. member now. Hahahaha quality, not quantity, counts, man . . . |
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