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Author Topic: Gavin will visit the CIA  (Read 136358 times)
Goldenmaw
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June 06, 2011, 11:25:13 PM
 #361

Godspeed and good grace, Gavin.  You've got an uphill battle to fight, but you've got a tremendous potential to do good for all of us, and it has to be done.  Bitcoin cannot survive in this country in the form of anarchistic fantasies, as a means of untaxable, unstoppable trade.  We're all rooting for you.
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June 06, 2011, 11:58:20 PM
 #362

Godspeed and good grace, Gavin.  You've got an uphill battle to fight, but you've got a tremendous potential to do good for all of us, and it has to be done.  Bitcoin cannot survive in this country in the form of anarchistic fantasies, as a means of untaxable, unstoppable trade.  We're all rooting for you.

This is all I have to say in response:

[facepalm]

[facepalm]

[facepalm]

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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June 07, 2011, 12:03:38 AM
 #363

Godspeed and good grace, Gavin.  You've got an uphill battle to fight, but you've got a tremendous potential to do good for all of us, and it has to be done.  Bitcoin cannot survive in this country in the form of anarchistic fantasies, as a means of untaxable, unstoppable trade.  We're all rooting for you.

Speak for yourself. Many of us desire to use bitcoin precisely because of the difficulty in preventing or taxing trade. If you think government cannot exist without taxation of income, perhaps you should rethink or abandon the idea of government.

Hint: there was no income tax until the 1800s off the top of my head.
Goldenmaw
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June 07, 2011, 12:06:13 AM
 #364

This is all I have to say in response:

[facepalm]

[facepalm]

[facepalm]


You think the psuedo-anonymity of Bitcoins is going to protect you from uncle sam if he decides to dedicate a fraction of his resources into tracking and penalizing bitcoin possession and exchange?  That's what I'm talking about here.  There's a huge power structure in place here that stands to lose a lot of its control over trade and traffic of goods if bitcoins takes off.  Who's gonna' dump all that value into bitcoins when nobody can trade them openly, buddy?  The price can't keep on going up unless people can legally offer their goods and services.

Quote
Speak for yourself. Many of us desire to use bitcoin precisely because of the difficulty in preventing or taxing trade. If you think government cannot exist without taxation of income, perhaps you should rethink or abandon the idea of government.
Have you watched Mad Max 2?  That's going to be my new catch all line against ridiculous anarchists.  Fact is, there's an income tax now, and the current power structure will collapse without it.  There would be a total lack of order.  Mad Max 2.
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June 07, 2011, 12:11:22 AM
 #365

This is all I have to say in response:

[facepalm]

[facepalm]

[facepalm]


You think the psuedo-anonymity of Bitcoins is going to protect you from uncle sam if he decides to dedicate a fraction of his resources into tracking and penalizing bitcoin possession and exchange?  That's what I'm talking about here.  There's a huge power structure in place here that stands to lose a lot of its control over trade and traffic of goods if bitcoins takes off.  Who's gonna' dump all that value into bitcoins when nobody can trade them openly, buddy?  The price can't keep on going up unless people can legally offer their goods and services.

Quote
Speak for yourself. Many of us desire to use bitcoin precisely because of the difficulty in preventing or taxing trade. If you think government cannot exist without taxation of income, perhaps you should rethink or abandon the idea of government.
Have you watched Mad Max 2?  That's going to be my new catch all line against ridiculous anarchists.  Fact is, there's an income tax now, and the current power structure will collapse without it.  There would be a total lack of order.  Mad Max 2.

How much are you getting paid to troll this forum?  Really, you can tell us, we already know.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Goldenmaw
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June 07, 2011, 12:14:06 AM
 #366

I am getting paid nothing but grief and indignation and ill will.  I can purchase nothing with these, and I'd honestly rather not have them. 

Bad things are ahead, unless dudes like Gavin can redirect the flood.  Remember that scene where Mel Gibson eats dog food and savors it?  That's us, sans income tax, because our country's entire infrastructure is SO heavily dependent on it that the whole thing will collapse like a house of cards without it.  Do you get it?  We can't go back, not all at once.  There's just no way without toppling the power structure completely.
Grant
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June 07, 2011, 12:18:56 AM
 #367


You think the psuedo-anonymity of Bitcoins is going to protect you from uncle sam if he decides to dedicate a fraction of his resources into tracking and penalizing bitcoin possession and exchange?  That's what I'm talking about here.  There's a huge power structure in place here that stands to lose a lot of its control over trade and traffic of goods if bitcoins takes off.  Who's gonna' dump all that value into bitcoins when nobody can trade them openly, buddy?  The price can't keep on going up unless people can legally offer their goods and services.


Ithink that's an excellent point, but i think similar as with other technologies. There are certain darkzone areas where it could be leveraged by governments for various political/intelligence agendas. Perfect example is their funding of revolts/terrorists in enemies lands. Wouldn't it be great for them to use a anonymous method to transfer money so it can't be traced back and documented publicly later ?

I can actually imagine how technologies like bitcoin could enable CIA to operate on a much more less transparent, hence more aggressive level. (at least when dark funding is needed)

MoonShadow
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June 07, 2011, 12:20:45 AM
 #368

I am getting paid nothing but grief and indignation and ill will.  I can purchase nothing with these, and I'd honestly rather not have them. 

Bad things are ahead, unless dudes like Gavin can redirect the flood.  Remember that scene where Mel Gibson eats dog food and savors it?  That's us, sans income tax, because our country's entire infrastructure is SO heavily dependent on it that the whole thing will collapse like a house of cards without it.  Do you get it?  We can't go back, not all at once.  There's just no way without toppling the power structure completely.

Cold turkey is the only way it's going to happen, and it must happen, or this will be a "world made by hand".

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Goldenmaw
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June 07, 2011, 12:22:44 AM
 #369

Who's going to make it happen, creighto?  A handful of nerds with assault rifles?  The people aren't behind us.  They haven't even heard of bitcoin, and what they do hear - from governmental controlled news outlets - is mostly bad.
MoonShadow
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June 07, 2011, 12:27:14 AM
 #370

Who's going to make it happen, creighto?  A handful of nerds with assault rifles?  The people aren't behind us.  They haven't even heard of bitcoin, and what they do hear - from governmental controlled news outlets - is mostly bad.

The irony is that there doesn't need to any outside group making this happen, the governments will naturally do it to themselves.  The rest of us just need to stay out of the way and let it happen.  The meek shall truly inherit the Earth.  Do a google search for that quote that I presented, you might find the author interesting.

Here, I'll even make it easier...

http://kunstler.com/blog/

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Goldenmaw
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June 07, 2011, 12:31:23 AM
 #371

So, let me get this straight - our government will willingly abdicate the tremendous control it has over our finances and purchasing power as long as we politely wait for it to happen?  What possible motivation does, say, the united states government have for such a move, when it would involve eviscerating its own network of control, firing the overwhelming majority of its employees, and risking socioeconomic collapse? 

I don't see it.

I do see the scenario you described in the extreme long term coming about as a result of old power structures weakening severely by comparison to the more liberally minded ones who embrace bitcoin technology sooner.  But I doubt either of us will live to see that, unless some kind of compromise is reached, or some charismatic person rises up and... Well, does what Gavin is hoping to do.  So here we are, back at goldenmaw post one.
beeph
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June 07, 2011, 12:31:38 AM
 #372

this is the equivalent of a mafia foot soldier visiting the feds 'just to chat' or the head of the nuclear program visiting iran 'just to give a presentation'

Honestly... way to sell this whole idea out.   It's one thing to tolerate the CIA but another to get right into bed with them.  Noone is saying to flout the law, but somehow I dont think that martin luther king would have gone to a clan meeting cuz he got paid 3000$.

Do you HONESTLY think these guys are fascinated by the intellectual curiosities of this like little school children?  

Sometimes a little passive resistance is CALLED for.. there's enough people selling out to the CIA they dont need YOUR HELP.


Goldenmaw
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June 07, 2011, 12:33:36 AM
 #373

They're going to kick our doors down and have at us and our hard drives unless someone convinces them that this is the best way to one-up china, beeph.
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June 07, 2011, 12:48:44 AM
 #374

so where's Satoshi in all this? Isnt he the creator?  The mastermind? .. so a buncha white-collar techie sell-outs co-opt this thing without even comprehending the spirit of it all?  Just because it's peer to peer doesnt mean it has to be EVIL.... we can take it upon ourselves to know who we're doing business with and report the drug dealers ourselves.

If the people behind this dont have any kind of idealism or ethics this thing is just gonna turn into another fee-based thing which will charge 0.001% less than the banks (until theres a 'meeting' with the bank which will oddly result in fees being identical or just an outright sale to said bank)

Fine.. I understand.. your scared of the big bad all-powerful government.  But why surrender before the fight has even begun?  If they reall wanna go down bashing in doors and arresting pasty-faced geeks at their computers then throw in the towel but dont just hand it to em on a silver platter.

Goldenmaw
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June 07, 2011, 12:51:47 AM
 #375

Satoshi - and that's certainly just an alias, and heaven knows if he's even from Japan - got off board a long time ago.  I can't say I blame him, although this has doubtless made him rich as all hell.
MoonShadow
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June 07, 2011, 12:55:25 AM
 #376



If the people behind this dont have any kind of idealism or ethics

You have no idea how ironic that is, nor just how offensive it is.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 07, 2011, 01:16:12 AM
 #377

Have you watched Mad Max 2?  That's going to be my new catch all line against ridiculous anarchists.  Fact is, there's an income tax now, and the current power structure will collapse without it.  There would be a total lack of order.  Mad Max 2.
Before you go throwing that a-word around, learn what it means. You are describing chaos, not anarchy.

http://www.infoshop.org/page/AnarchistFAQSectionA1

Use my Trade Hill referral code: TH-R11519

Check out bitcoinity.org and Ripple.

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Goldenmaw
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June 07, 2011, 01:21:00 AM
 #378

I am describing total social chaos because I flat out don't believe that anarchy as you subscribe to it can bring about the kind of functional, free form social structure that the career anarchist subscribes to.  I don't recognize a difference.  This too will pass, as we change as a race.  But for now, we'll have to agree to disagree.
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June 07, 2011, 01:33:17 AM
 #379

I am describing total social chaos because I flat out don't believe that anarchy as you subscribe to it can bring about the kind of functional, free form social structure that the career anarchist subscribes to.  I don't recognize a difference.  This too will pass, as we change as a race.  But for now, we'll have to agree to disagree.
If you think that we cannot hope for more than chaos in the absence of government and other authoritarian social relationships, and that we cannot possibly achieve anarchy, then say so. Anarchy and chaos, however, are not synonyms, so the whole association between Mad Max 2 and anarchy makes no sense.

Use my Trade Hill referral code: TH-R11519

Check out bitcoinity.org and Ripple.

Shameless display of my bitcoin address:
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Goldenmaw
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June 07, 2011, 01:39:09 AM
 #380

I said anarchists, not anarchy.  I was referring to the people who subscribe to that social idea, and using Mad Max 2 to describe what I thought that the reality behind the social idea would be.  I think possibly my grammar is to blame for this, and I can see where the confusion might arise.  I'll keep a closer eye on it from here on.
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