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Author Topic: Gavin will visit the CIA  (Read 136275 times)
Jim Hyslop
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April 29, 2011, 02:54:13 AM
 #201

Oh, my objections aren't of the "spy novel" variety. 
That comment wasn't aimed at you. I don't think. I'd have to go back and re-read the entire thread to be sure. :-)

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I'm just talking about the motives of those who represent and help drive open-source communities forward.  The chances that Gavin will be bought off by the CIA as a result of this conference speech are nil.  But it leads to potentially unfortunate project-management dynamics if, when the one chosen as "development lead" is asked to speak somewhere, he pockets the fee as if he has earned it personally rather than as a result of the efforts of the community of developers.
Well, by that logic, one could argue that all the bitcoins ever mined are the result of the efforts of the community of developers, and should not be pocketed by the miners.

As far as I'm concerned, what Gavin does with whatever money is left over after he's finished is none of our damn business. You clearly disagree, and it's pretty clear neither one of us is going to convince the other. Gavin's accepting of the engagement and fee is not going to affect my involvement in this project (I have already submitted one pull request and have more planned when time permits).

BTW - we do agree about certain people distorting the discussion :-)

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April 29, 2011, 03:08:07 AM
 #202


In the realm of details, however, that is not true.  The trip will be about $500 when all is said and done.  Gavin's typical salary as a programmer in the last few years, which is a matter of public record because he was working for the state of Massachusetts, was in the range of $30,000 - $40,000.

And he's working on this project, on his own fricking expense. Nobody is paying him to be the technical lead.

In any case, I don't give a damn if Gavin happens to be a billionaire when he present Bitcoin to the CIA.

marcus_of_augustus
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April 29, 2011, 03:12:20 AM
 #203

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I recognize the countercultural spirit of this group (though I find the anarchic extremeness of many of its members bizarre, difficult to read, and distortive of the discussion -- for example, Bitcoin almost certainly does not represent any sort of threat to the White House, the Internal Revenue Service, or other countries' analogues of those organization

.... that's fine if you think that, and it will be great if WH, IRS, CIA or any other gubmint drone in position to do something keeps seeing it like this for as long as possible .... because by the time they recognise the threat it will be too late .... 0.8 THash/s and counting, grow baby grow the drones are still asleep.

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April 29, 2011, 03:16:02 AM
 #204

In the realm of details, however, that is not true.  The trip will be about $500 when all is said and done.

Surely it is not appropriate to discuss his salary details.

I imagine we'd need to compare with a regular software developer consultancy fee since that better reflects the true cost of time (in a salaried job benefits, vacations, lower taxes and so on play in). Let's say $100 per hour to be conservative. Then assume he prepares his material for a day, and stays the night, and travels back the next, losing 3 days in total. If he has anything less than $2400 left after paying for all expenses, he lost money compared to just staying at home.

It's all rather flimsy but my point was simply that it isn't much money.

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Jim Hyslop
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April 29, 2011, 03:19:13 AM
 #205

0.8 THash/s and counting, grow baby grow the drones are still asleep.
Wait, wait - I'm still trying to get my GPU mining rig set up! Let the hash rate stay the same until I at least mine ONE block! :-D

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April 29, 2011, 03:24:04 AM
 #206

In the realm of details, however, that is not true.  The trip will be about $500 when all is said and done.

Surely it is not appropriate to discuss his salary details.

I imagine we'd need to compare with a regular software developer consultancy fee since that better reflects the true cost of time (in a salaried job benefits, vacations, lower taxes and so on play in). Let's say $100 per hour to be conservative. Then assume he prepares his material for a day, and stays the night, and travels back the next, losing 3 days in total. If he has anything less than $2400 left after paying for all expenses, he lost money compared to just staying at home.

It's all rather flimsy but my point was simply that it isn't much money.


.... especially in evaporating fiat currency ...

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April 29, 2011, 03:25:08 AM
 #207

0.8 THash/s and counting, grow baby grow the drones are still asleep.
Wait, wait - I'm still trying to get my GPU mining rig set up! Let the hash rate stay the same until I at least mine ONE block! :-D

Almost certainly not going to happen.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 29, 2011, 03:59:51 AM
 #208

I don't need to be a committed developer (yet?) on this project to say that; my point is that it decreases my willingness, and perhaps that of others, to volunteer time and effort to contribute.

That's fine. People who get jealous of other people's success probably don't fit in here anyway.
MacRohard
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April 29, 2011, 06:13:49 AM
 #209

I want to get this out in the open because it is the kind of thing that will generate conspiracy theories:  I'm going to give a presentation about Bitcoin at CIA headquarters in June at an emerging technologies conference for the US intelligence community.

I accepted the invitation to speak because the fact that I was invited means Bitcoin is already on their radar, and I think it might be a good chance to talk about why I think Bitcoin will make the world a better place.  I think the goals of this project are to create a better currency, create a more competitive and efficient international payment system, and give people more direct control over their finances.  And I don't think any of those goals are incompatible with the goals of government.

I'm only very slightly worried that talking about bitcoin at the CIA will increase the chances they'll try to do something we don't want them to do.  I think accepting their invitation and being open about exactly what bitcoin is will make it less likely they'll see it as a threat.

PS: Full disclosure: I'll be paid a one-time fee of $3,000 to cover expenses and pay me for my time.  I don't want any "Gavin is on the CIA's payroll" rumors to get started, either...

As always, comments and questions and discussion welcome.  I'd really rather not hear any conspiracy theories about how they'll secretly implant a mind-control chip in my head while I'm there, though....



Makes sense.. one of the main uses of bitcoin will probably be to pay for illegal drugs.. the CIA are the world's largest drug dealers.
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April 29, 2011, 06:25:09 AM
 #210

If gavin got 3000 bitcoins for speaking to the cia by the time he actually spoke to them it would be worth over $6000 and think of the prime cocaine he could buy from the cia with that and sell on silk road for a profit
 Cheesy

hint to self - always ask to get paid in bitcoins




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April 29, 2011, 09:38:03 AM
 #211

I don't want any "Gavin is on the CIA's payroll" rumors to get started, either...

If you were on their payroll, surely you wouldn't write everything openly like this with all the details.
I believe you.

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April 29, 2011, 09:44:42 AM
 #212

Not if they openly approached him.  If they weren't going to play nice, they wouldn't have bothered with a ruse.  Like I said, openly inviting him to speak and offering him a speaker's fee tells me that they intend to play nice.  It's a very bullish signal.

Absolutely right.

I think they are curious how/if they can use bitcoins to their advantage and against other nations.
IMHO if/after they figure out they cannot use BTC for their gains, they will attack it.

The question is if they can.
If CIA has thrown their computer clusters' power into generating Bitcoin, they could become one of early adopters, which could  theoretically give them advantage agains other nations. Can that be the cause for their sudden interest in BTC ?

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April 29, 2011, 10:08:43 AM
 #213

The CIA is in my opinion, a terrorist organization. Like this guy knows...



you can always do with a few more stacks of cash for a new doom-ray machine. Next time they setup a bomb attack on a bus in Iran or something, they might find it useful to pay for things in bitcoin.

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April 29, 2011, 10:09:34 AM
 #214

My point of view is government is a criminal organization, so I don't like it very much. Just like I wouldn't like if Bitcoin developers went to talk about it with other organized thieves, kidnappers and murderers. I think Bitcoin should be promoted more among honest people, who trade drugs, weapons, voluntary porn of any kind and so on, not among criminals gangs.

But in the end everyone is free to talk with anyone they want so whatever. I just don't think talking with such people will help Bitcoin. It may indeed help them to harm more people.

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April 29, 2011, 10:14:13 AM
 #215

I don't think governments are any more evil than knives or hammers. They are a tool to be used to organize commons or something. Who wields it and to what purpose... that's a seperate question. Saying "governments are evil" makes calling the CIA "a terrorist organization" meaningless.

I merely register my disagreement with your statement in order to preserve the meaning of my own. Naturally I assume that you disagree.

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April 29, 2011, 10:16:43 AM
 #216

Either government is voluntary (you agree that some person will make decisions for you, maybe a good example would be modern hierarchy in catholic church) or it's a criminal organization that uses violence and extortion and in the principle is just a large mafia with traditions.

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April 29, 2011, 10:32:52 AM
 #217

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Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
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April 29, 2011, 10:46:08 AM
 #218

My point of view is government is a criminal organization, so I don't like it very much. Just like I wouldn't like if Bitcoin developers went to talk about it with other organized thieves, kidnappers and murderers. I think Bitcoin should be promoted more among honest people, who trade drugs, weapons, voluntary porn of any kind and so on, not among criminals gangs.

Hahahahaha


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April 29, 2011, 10:46:37 AM
 #219

Either government is voluntary (you agree that some person will make decisions for you, maybe a good example would be modern hierarchy in catholic church) or it's a criminal organization that uses violence and extortion and in the principle is just a large mafia with traditions.

Premise fail.

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April 29, 2011, 10:47:15 AM
 #220

Cocaine In America

Conspiracy Institute of America. Grin

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