bustabit.com -- The Social Gambling Game

[cowbay]

Wow! thanksfinland turned 25 bits into 10 BTC with an amazing 400,000.00x cashout. Totally shattering the previous record from cowbay of a 50,001x cashout.

Actually it was 100,001x (https://www.bustabit.com/game/2318863) but it was shattered nonetheless. Never thought someone would be insane enough to try and break it. Congrats thanksfinland.

[cramcram21]

Really great site to play I really like this site so much,
It gives me thrill and excite me in a fun way but I always lose.

[libertynow]

This is really disappointing.  The bonuses is what makes the game actually possible to beat long term.  Seems like a money grab decision.  It's really too bad because it's currently a unique game, now it'll just be another casino website.  whoopee, as if that's really needed....

Not really, the change isn't expected to make me any less or more money. The issue is this, I love the idea of pvp gambling and think it's really cool and indeed something that makes bustabit unique. However for players who play purely against the house,  the pvp aspect does them a disservice (they unknowingly get taken advantage of by players who are playing pvp).

Based on my unscientific polling and analysis, leads me to believe that playing bonus oblivious is by far the most common way to play bustabit. So for that reason, I think the most reasonable and fair thing to do, is split it into two games. One specifically for people who want to play against each other. And one for people who want to play against the house

 

How would the pvp game work? What would be the incentive for anyone to play at all?

I'm currently working with the idea that in the pvp version, the multiplier starts at 0.9x and increases from there. The bonuses would work just like they do currently on bustabit, except that they would be an average of 10% instead of 1%

1) How long will the current site be available for/when will the new site be released?

2) I still don't understand how the pvp will work?  Don't you need "oblivious" players to keep playing or it's just negative ev if one guy is playing all by himself...?

[statdude]

I honestly think this is a huge risk factor for the site.

In a casino, you have two categories of players. Skill based (poker Players and Blackjack Players) vs Luck /casual Roulette/Slots players.

Roulette / slots players don't give two craps about their edge or anything and are generally casual players.

Blackjack Players and Poker players may or may not ACTUALLY have an edge. But, if they think they do, they will keep coming back, and will also mix with the non-skill players, and occasionally go "tilt" on the luck games.

It's having both under the same roof that "brings the action". The fact that 90% of players don't know about, understand, or care about their house edge does not mean you are doing them any disservice by keeping it as is. This is why  "slots only" casinos feel dead compared to one that has a Pit and Poker room, with lots of different types of players.

Also, the big winners (using "skill", usually) attract more "luck" players.

I think splitting the PVP players from the main game would be a huge negative for bustabit. Hopefully it doesnt happen.

Caveat, i would love to play the new PVP version, I just hope the original version isn't changed, as the rules are perfectly elegant as is - they are what have made Bustabit great.

[dooglus]

Also, the big winners (using "skill", usually) attract more "luck" players.

That seems to be the crux of your argument, but I think it's flawed. "Skill" players have a pretty small edge and tend to make small gains. The biggest winners are "luck" players who got lucky. You don't make huge wins taking advantage of the 1% bonus...

From what RHavar has said, apparently the pool of "skill" players is pretty small. The "luck" players wouldn't notice if the "skill" players went away altogether. It wouldn't affect their experience at all, other than that they wouldn't be losing quite as fast.

Currently the "luck" player losses are being split between the house and the "skill" players. If the skill aspect is removed then the "luck" players lose more slowly, but 100% of their losses go to the house instead of being split. Eventually they will still tend to lose their whole deposit. It will take twice as long as before, but the house will end up with it all.

So it's win/win: the house makes more profit (because it isn't sharing the spoils with the skill players) and the luck players get to play twice as long per deposit. It's a losing proposition for the skill players, but there aren't many of those anyway.

[RHavar]

1) How long will the current site be available for/when will the new site be released?

I'm expecting it'll be around for at least 2 or 3 more months. I'm in no rush to release the new version, and want to make sure everyone is totally happy with it, before I do any sort of switch over. You should be able to get an idea of the blockers by following this: https://github.com/bustabit/bustabit-client/milestone/1   (but keep in mind as time and testing progresses more issues will definitely be added)

2) I still don't understand how the pvp will work?  Don't you need "oblivious" players to keep playing or it's just negative ev if one guy is playing all by himself...?

You don't need to be playing against oblivious players, just be better than the other players currently playing. If everyone is the same level, they'll probably bleed money slowly (at a dynamic 0-1% house edge, like bustabit currently has).  It's very much like poker when you think about it. If you're a lot better than someone, you can overcome the rake and take advantage of them. But if they're playing nash or you're the same level, you'll just slowly bleed.

Also I agree with Dooglus about the lucky players attracting attention, not the skillful ones. For instance, I know you've put a lot of work in your bot (which seems to be doing a great job!), and it's up 2 BTC. However, that's nothing compared to the 3 players we have (gohard, LosDeXibalbaMC, dudaxmaimons) who are all >200 BTC in net profit from good luck (most of them have had an EV of ~-0.5 to ~-0.8%)!

I honestly think this is a huge risk factor for the site.

I agree. I'm thinking the biggest risk is that because bustabit is a game that *allows* skilled players to make a profit (unlike most other sites) it attracts gambles who trick themselves into believing they're playing skillfully, but actually just playing lucky. With a split, it'll be a lot me a lot more apparent.

Anyway, I have no plan of rushing through changes. And and maintaining a branch that puts the odds identical to how they are now (with bonuses).

I like to think I have a very open mind, and a bad intuition about these sort of things. So I'm more than happy to revert back to the original scheme/bonuses if that's what's best for my players

[statdude]

I like to think I have a very open mind, and a bad intuition about these sort of things. So I'm more than happy to revert back to the original scheme/bonuses if that's what's best for my players

Good to hear. I appreciate the counter arguments but am not convinced yet. You will lose many of those players who perhaps "think" they are EV, but actually aren't. That is the real crux of the argument now that I think about it, although I do think there are some synergies from having a single game, including the marketing that comes from advertising an element of skill (game is known to winnable) + network effect.

That's why casinos allow profitable rules blackjack even in 2017 - a +EV for players game (when cards counted properly). 70% of the players suck (including a lot of whales, yes), 25% think they are +ev but arent (you'll lose these ones - these are the types that play well 80% of the time and then tilt and go to shit, and probably make up most of your mid range players) and they kick out the other 5%. But, EVERYONE shares the illusion the game is "beatable", even the donks. I'm convinced this is the main reason it is the most popular game in casinos. I can't tell you how many people I've met who have "21" or some other movie about the "5%" winning, but then just end up playing with superstitions or their own bad habits / and "winning" strategies (Martinigale), and are just too ignorant or careless to realize they are in the other 70% or 95%.

Walk into any US casino and you will see that 80%+ of the tables are blackjack or poker, the rest are the "degen" -EV games. yet where do the casinos make the money?

Thanks for listening to an extremely experienced gambler (for better or worse  )

[Erza]

Wow! thanksfinland turned 25 bits into 10 BTC with an amazing 400,000.00x cashout. Totally shattering the previous record from cowbay of a 50,001x cashout.

Just wondering how much is the max multiplier here? Never saw this huge multiplier before. And btw last time there is not even 7 btc for the max win and now there has really huge multiplier winner? Wondering how much he lose before he got that huge hit

Btw congrats to the winner of course

[torry28]

Wow! thanksfinland turned 25 bits into 10 BTC with an amazing 400,000.00x cashout. Totally shattering the previous record from cowbay of a 50,001x cashout.

Just wondering how much is the max multiplier here? Never saw this huge multiplier before. And btw last time there is not even 7 btc for the max win and now there has really huge multiplier winner? Wondering how much he lose before he got that huge hit

Btw congrats to the winner of course

AFAIK, there is no "Max multiplier" on Bustabit. There is only "Max profit" currently at 22.98 BTC. The highest crash i've seen until now when user thanksfinland hit 400000x multiplier, it crashed or busted at  2,867,276.85x multiplier. You can see how much he lose through his account stats https://www.bustabit.com/user/thanksfinland

[RHavar]

AFAIK, there is no "Max multiplier" on Bustabit.

Pretty much. Although theoretically due to floating point maths there's a limit (I've calculated a few times, but keep forgetting to save it). But it's like billions of trillions or something stupid. But as state, the real limitation is the max profit. Even if you bet 1 bit, the most you could ever really get is ~23M before you're forcibly cashed out. So that kind of is the defacto max achievable multiplier at the moment

[Lauren Smith]

This game is just too addictive and too much fun !! I use to play for a lot of btc (well a lot for me) now I use dust or a few cents. Normally 10-100 bits at a time and I just play for fun since I enjoy it. I haven't played for some time but it is very fun experience.

When I do win I buy some altcoins ^^

[woodkid]

Hiya! A bit off topic from upcoming V2 release. I went through several dozens of pages of this thread, but couldn't find what i'm looking for.

Is there a place/way to get my hands on historical game stats, in particular crash points? I know @RHavar that you released a game dump recently, but it only has player bets history. I don't think i can calculate crash points based on that, as everyone is using different multiplier, or am i wrong?

I know i can access .json data, but there's CloudFlare protection and you also mentioned 5sec anti-DDoS protection, so it would take ages. But perhaps that's the point.

One other thing that comes to my mind is calculate crash points from hashes, but again, i would need the hash list itself.

I'd be grateful for some help or any other ideas. Thanks!

[RHavar]

Is there a place/way to get my hands on historical game stats, in particular crash points?

Yup, you can derive the entire thing by using the latest hash you can find. See this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=709185.msg10378591#msg10378591

[woodkid]

Is there a place/way to get my hands on historical game stats, in particular crash points?

Yup, you can derive the entire thing by using the latest hash you can find. See this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=709185.msg10378591#msg10378591

Fantastic, thanks a lot!

[fiscorcle]

Is there a set date for v2 release / the end of v1?

[fiscorcle]

Will there be scripts allowed in the new P VP version?

[AmXProX]

I love the initial version the best. When it was moneypot instead of bustabit.  I do believe that its me when trying to play the old way. It "Skips" numbers. For example it will go from 1.0 to 1.1, 1.15, 1.2., 1.3 ect. I never actually see it counting. What is weird though is I have 20mb+ internet. You would think it would be ok, but its not. None whatsoever

[fiscorcle]

I love the initial version the best. When it was moneypot instead of bustabit.  I do believe that its me when trying to play the old way. It "Skips" numbers. For example it will go from 1.0 to 1.1, 1.15, 1.2., 1.3 ect. I never actually see it counting. What is weird though is I have 20mb+ internet. You would think it would be ok, but its not. None whatsoever

It could very well be your browser RAM, or your CPU. Especially if you're running a script for a long time

[AmXProX]

I love the initial version the best. When it was moneypot instead of bustabit.  I do believe that its me when trying to play the old way. It "Skips" numbers. For example it will go from 1.0 to 1.1, 1.15, 1.2., 1.3 ect. I never actually see it counting. What is weird though is I have 20mb+ internet. You would think it would be ok, but its not. None whatsoever

The initial version is available here: https://www.bustabit.com/play-old   does that work better for you?

Thats the one I was saying "Skips". I know they are nothing you can do, and more than likely, its all my fault. Not intentionally, but internet wise I guess. I just did a speed test while I had it pulled up. Over 22mbs. What would cause it to skip like that? It never counts. I see numbers like 1.1, next number I see is 1.23, ect. no counting. Just skipping..lol.

[AmXProX]

No, the newer version works perfect. No skipping whatsoever. Thats why I'm a little confused as to why one would skip, and one don't.