GAW ZenCloud ZenPool Hashlet - does it really exist? ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :-)

[MOB]

Let's take a look at the Scrypt-N theory (which has also already been brought up in this thread) forwarded by Dr. whomever on the Hashtalk forums.  Please check my arithmetic.

I will see if it is possible for the Scrypt-N network to cover daily Zenpool payments.  The answer is a resounding "no."

Hard Numbers:
Total Scrypt-N Hashrate /day = 2,603 MH/s
Total Scrypt-N Hashrate /day = 2,603,000 kH/s
Total Revenue from Scrypt-N /day /for all coins combined = $14,717.93 (let's call it 29 BTC @$505)
Before GAW pulled the info from ZenPool, the total ZP network shares were over 250,000 MH (which comes out to over 124BTC paid out per day)

You can generate this data from CoinWarz: http://tinyurl.com/Just-the-facts-Jack


We now see that the total revenue of all scrypt-N coins combined comes out to $14,717.93/day. That is ~29BTC/day in total payout.  Seems like an awfully low number.  Let's check to see how much Zenpool pays out each day.

Taking the publicly available top 10 champions from Zenpool, you get 45,468 MH between them.  We ignore the MH, since that number is not any indication of actual mining, but instead use that number to estimate their payouts.   After fees, they will be paid out 22.626 BTC for the last 24 hours of "mining."


Conclusions:
So what does that mean?  It means that if Zenpool is comprised of 100% of all network hashrate on all scrypt-N coins then it would be able to cover the payments of its top 10 users with 6.373 BTC left over, which is enough left to cover an additional 12,806 MH of GAW shares, but not the 200,000 plus outstanding shares that GAW has to pay out to daily.

Does GAW represent 100% of all scrypt-N hashing for all scrypt-N coins?  Certainly not.
Does GAW payout more per day than the entire scrypt-N network makes per day?  Yes, they do.

We can say, conclusively, that GAW is not paying out purely from Scrypt-N.  They would need at least 5x the payout of the entire Scrypt-N network combined in order to satisfy the sales that were made up to August 26th.


Further Questions:
All sales since August 26th would only increase that number, which I think we can safely assume to have gone up by a further 50% with all of the panic buying amidst hashlet price increases.  This means GAW must payout ~$93,930 per day, despite being only able to mine a fraction of this cost.

As always, we are left with the question:  Where does the payout money come from if not from Hashlet sales?  Why does Josh make vague statements which he later changes when they are challenged?

[suchmoon]

Here's how I see it. They sold more than they intended to and people kept asking for more, so they needed more supply to satisfy the demand and probably decided that 'if they want it so much let's make them pay more'. That's how I'd do it because this is the way market works.
I think hashlet was a software from the beginning, but the choice of words in early advertising was questionable and was changed later on.
I'm not wondering why the discussion takes place but rather why you keep buying from them if you say it's a scam. I'm a simple guy and if something stinks I don't touch it.

I don't keep buying. I never said it's a scam. I bought a bitcoin's worth of first batch hashlets for a stats project I'm running. At $16 and given the initial assurances it was a moderate risk investment. With the recent changes it is a much different proposition. I wouldn't touch it now and I think the questions being raised here is a service to the community. Even if the only result is going to be GAW changing their marketing blurb, it's still a good result.

I'm glad you agree that it was misrepresented initially.

[suchmoon]

Why does Josh make vague statements which he later changes when they are challenged?

To be honest as far as I can see Josh would lurk in some threads on hashtalk and pop up with some "hints" whenever another poster generated some "theory" that he liked. Then he collected some of those, added "highly trained businessmen", and made that post that I quoted earlier. He either is making this all up from what he thinks the "community" expects this to be, or he has a lot of socks. I mean I'm pretty sure there is a preconceived plan in the background (I don't think it involves any mining though), but the facade is being built as we speak, consistency and facts be damned. The reality distortion field is pretty good too, I certainly expected some murmur on HT after this last announcement but so far nothing.

[bobsav2121]

The jig is up.
I have a very reliable source in the FBI and they tell me that they have their top people looking into this matter as we speak !!!

Mulder and Scully have been assigned to the case so you can all rest easy tonight.

[Stargazer]

Here's how I see it. They sold more than they intended to and people kept asking for more, so they needed more supply to satisfy the demand and probably decided that 'if they want it so much let's make them pay more'. That's how I'd do it because this is the way market works.
I think hashlet was a software from the beginning, but the choice of words in early advertising was questionable and was changed later on.
I'm not wondering why the discussion takes place but rather why you keep buying from them if you say it's a scam. I'm a simple guy and if something stinks I don't touch it.

I don't keep buying. I never said it's a scam. I bought a bitcoin's worth of first batch hashlets for a stats project I'm running. At $16 and given the initial assurances it was a moderate risk investment. With the recent changes it is a much different proposition. I wouldn't touch it now and I think the questions being raised here is a service to the community. Even if the only result is going to be GAW changing their marketing blurb, it's still a good result.

I'm glad you agree that it was misrepresented initially.

I knew from the start they were just selling shares like CEX, PB and others.They innitially called hashlets "miners", like you were buying a single chip of a big machine and could pick the amount of chips (miners) you want to own. They are experimenting with the market and trying to make up new names and promotions. Maybe you saw their ice bucket challenge or other funny stuff. Theres a sick guy there who got a golf cart donated by the hashtalk community. Maybe I'm just a positive guy but I like this approach. They are not stiff and this industry needs something different.

[rdyoung]

Here's how I see it. They sold more than they intended to and people kept asking for more, so they needed more supply to satisfy the demand and probably decided that 'if they want it so much let's make them pay more'. That's how I'd do it because this is the way market works.
I think hashlet was a software from the beginning, but the choice of words in early advertising was questionable and was changed later on.
I'm not wondering why the discussion takes place but rather why you keep buying from them if you say it's a scam. I'm a simple guy and if something stinks I don't touch it.

I don't keep buying. I never said it's a scam. I bought a bitcoin's worth of first batch hashlets for a stats project I'm running. At $16 and given the initial assurances it was a moderate risk investment. With the recent changes it is a much different proposition. I wouldn't touch it now and I think the questions being raised here is a service to the community. Even if the only result is going to be GAW changing their marketing blurb, it's still a good result.

I'm glad you agree that it was misrepresented initially.

I knew from the start they were just selling shares like CEX, PB and others.They innitially called hashlets "miners", like you were buying a single chip of a big machine and could pick the amount of chips (miners) you want to own. They are experimenting with the market and trying to make up new names and promotions. Maybe you saw their ice bucket challenge or other funny stuff. Theres a sick guy there who got a golf cart donated by the hashtalk comunity. Maybe I'm just a positive guy but I like this approach. They are not stiff and this industry needs something different.

From what start? When I discovered them were selling physical hardware, I have several furies running right now, the whole zencloud/hashlet thing started in late august. This is why its hard to figure out exactly whats going on. The hashlets are probably backed by the vaultbreakers assuming they are real.

[Stargazer]

Here's how I see it. They sold more than they intended to and people kept asking for more, so they needed more supply to satisfy the demand and probably decided that 'if they want it so much let's make them pay more'. That's how I'd do it because this is the way market works.
I think hashlet was a software from the beginning, but the choice of words in early advertising was questionable and was changed later on.
I'm not wondering why the discussion takes place but rather why you keep buying from them if you say it's a scam. I'm a simple guy and if something stinks I don't touch it.

I don't keep buying. I never said it's a scam. I bought a bitcoin's worth of first batch hashlets for a stats project I'm running. At $16 and given the initial assurances it was a moderate risk investment. With the recent changes it is a much different proposition. I wouldn't touch it now and I think the questions being raised here is a service to the community. Even if the only result is going to be GAW changing their marketing blurb, it's still a good result.

I'm glad you agree that it was misrepresented initially.

I knew from the start they were just selling shares like CEX, PB and others.They innitially called hashlets "miners", like you were buying a single chip of a big machine and could pick the amount of chips (miners) you want to own. They are experimenting with the market and trying to make up new names and promotions. Maybe you saw their ice bucket challenge or other funny stuff. Theres a sick guy there who got a golf cart donated by the hashtalk comunity. Maybe I'm just a positive guy but I like this approach. They are not stiff and this industry needs something different.

From what start? When I discovered them were selling physical hardware, I have several furies running right now, the whole zencloud/hashlet thing started in late august. This is why its hard to figure out exactly whats going on. The hashlets are probably backed by the vaultbreakers assuming they are real.

I first heard of them maybe a week before they launched hashlets. I was looking for someone to buy an S3 from.

[rdyoung]

Here's how I see it. They sold more than they intended to and people kept asking for more, so they needed more supply to satisfy the demand and probably decided that 'if they want it so much let's make them pay more'. That's how I'd do it because this is the way market works.
I think hashlet was a software from the beginning, but the choice of words in early advertising was questionable and was changed later on.
I'm not wondering why the discussion takes place but rather why you keep buying from them if you say it's a scam. I'm a simple guy and if something stinks I don't touch it.

I don't keep buying. I never said it's a scam. I bought a bitcoin's worth of first batch hashlets for a stats project I'm running. At $16 and given the initial assurances it was a moderate risk investment. With the recent changes it is a much different proposition. I wouldn't touch it now and I think the questions being raised here is a service to the community. Even if the only result is going to be GAW changing their marketing blurb, it's still a good result.

I'm glad you agree that it was misrepresented initially.

I knew from the start they were just selling shares like CEX, PB and others.They innitially called hashlets "miners", like you were buying a single chip of a big machine and could pick the amount of chips (miners) you want to own. They are experimenting with the market and trying to make up new names and promotions. Maybe you saw their ice bucket challenge or other funny stuff. Theres a sick guy there who got a golf cart donated by the hashtalk comunity. Maybe I'm just a positive guy but I like this approach. They are not stiff and this industry needs something different.

From what start? When I discovered them were selling physical hardware, I have several furies running right now, the whole zencloud/hashlet thing started in late august. This is why its hard to figure out exactly whats going on. The hashlets are probably backed by the vaultbreakers assuming they are real.

I first heard of them maybe a week before they launched hashlets. I was looking for someone to buy an S3 from.

Without knowing any background, how could you have "known"?
I still believe that the at the very least, the hashlets in the wild now are backed by hardware, the vaultbreakers are/were 750mhs a piece and while its hard to tell size in a photoshop mockup, it appears to fit in a u2 or u3 rack.

A member of hashtalk created this site https://xively.com/feeds/1229182496
If that # is representative of hardware, 482 vaultbreakers @ 750 each is all thats needed for the current poolsize.

Again, I do believe the hardware is real, what I have issue with is how josh lacks to explain anything in any more detail than, we make you lots more muny than the udders doo. As I have had time to process all of this I am beginning to lean towards the idea that josh and his board, etc are just out of their depths. They saw a market they could dominate by tossing millions at without educating themselves on the fundamentals, nor how to actually interact with and explain your offering to those customers who are smarter than your average bear.

[s1gs3gv]

The hashlets are probably backed by the vaultbreakers assuming they are real.

[suchmoon]

I knew from the start they were just selling shares like CEX, PB and others.They innitially called hashlets "miners", like you were buying a single chip of a big machine and could pick the amount of chips (miners) you want to own. They are experimenting with the market and trying to make up new names and promotions. Maybe you saw their ice bucket challenge or other funny stuff. Theres a sick guy there who got a golf cart donated by the hashtalk community. Maybe I'm just a positive guy but I like this approach. They are not stiff and this industry needs something different.

Agree with most of your points but what this industry definitely doesn't need is misleading, opaque, vague promises. If it's a financial instrument or an investment fund - say so. If it's mining - show the blocks. I don't see how any of that should be a problem for a legitimate honest business like GAW is portraying itself. But as long as they continue to publish silly marketing gimmicks instead of truthfully representing their products (remember, the "virtual software" part is buried deep in Zen TOS, the product ad still says "bitcoin miner") it will continue to raise questions.

[suchmoon]

The hashlets are probably backed by the vaultbreakers assuming they are real.

http://makeameme.org/media/created/not-sure-if-grxyft.jpg

 

That's uncalled for, rdyoung is neither troll nor stupid.

But yeah I don't think Vaulbreakers exist. Too many uncertainties around Ensilica / Flower connection, too many coincidences in timing, no evidence whatsoever, not even a hint from Josh. I would bet another 0.01 that Vaultbreakers won't get shipped (to customers who bought shipped) in 2014.

[rdyoung]

The hashlets are probably backed by the vaultbreakers assuming they are real.

http://makeameme.org/media/created/not-sure-if-grxyft.jpg

 

That's uncalled for, rdyoung is neither troll nor stupid.

But yeah I don't think Vaulbreakers exist. Too many uncertainties around Ensilica / Flower connection, too many coincidences in timing, no evidence whatsoever, not even a hint from Josh. I would bet another 0.01 that Vaultbreakers won't get shipped (to customers who bought shipped) in 2014.

We will know soon enough. What is this connection you speak of? Considering they have sold hardware, I don't find it hard to believe the vaultbreakers are real. This is the problem we have trying to figure this out, we have people spouting so called knowledge and intuition when they have only known about gaw for a couple of weeks, I bought my furies months ago and if I can get my current rma issue resolved, I might risk buying one or 2 more.

[MOB]

Josh agreed to answer a few questions via email, so I asked him about the Zenpool payouts.  His responses are in italics.

1. Do any of the payouts come from from Scrypt-N mining?
yes

2. Do any of the payouts come from day trading?
yes

3. Do any of the payouts come from BTC mining?
yes

4. Do any of the payouts come from a return of capital (i.e. a return of a part of the original hashlet costs)
no

5.  If there is some other source of payments that gets put into the Zenpool, can you tell me what that source is in a general way?
The majority of income comes from private companies leasing hashing power for us for specific experiences/projects they are doing.

[suchmoon]

We will know soon enough. What is this connection you speak of? Considering they have sold hardware, I don't find it hard to believe the vaultbreakers are real. This is the problem we have trying to figure this out, we have people spouting so called knowledge and intuition when they have only known about gaw for a couple of weeks, I bought my furies months ago and if I can get my current rma issue resolved, I might risk buying one or 2 more.

When Vaultbreaker was announced it was assumed it's based on the same chips as Flower Tech, for a couple of reasons: CEO had mentioned Flower as one of companies he was talking to, and specs seemed to match. Flower recently announced that they failed to produce their miner and postponed delivery until February. GAW insists they will still deliver on time, i.e. end of Q3 / beginning of Q4.

If I can find some links I'll post them here.

Edit:

https://hashtalk.org/t/has-there-been-any-word-on-flowertech-scrypt-and-scrypt-n-asics/127
https://hashtalk.org/t/let-me-be-the-first-to-introduce-the-vaultbreaker/1220/25
https://www.flowertechnology.com/2014/08/15/updates-august-2014/

[rdyoung]

The hashlets are probably backed by the vaultbreakers assuming they are real.

Do you have any IT, programming, hardware knowledge/experience at all? Have you run hardware miners yourself? Have you built/repaired pcs/laptops from scratch? Did you read my entire post? There is plenty of gaw hardware in the wild, again, I am running 2 at the moment while sorting out an rma issue on the third. Considering the money they likely made on their first generation of mining hardware I find it difficult to dismiss the vaultbreaker as a phantom. I also find it curious that they only offered 2 batches of vaultbreakers. Its likely that the whole "prime" thing evolved sometime during the design of the vaultbreakers as a way to take things to a new level.

[rdyoung]

Josh agreed to answer a few questions via email, so I asked him about the Zenpool payouts.  His responses are in italics.

1. Do any of the payouts come from from Scrypt-N mining?
yes

2. Do any of the payouts come from day trading?
yes

3. Do any of the payouts come from BTC mining?
yes

4. Do any of the payouts come from a return of capital (i.e. a return of a part of the original hashlet costs)
no

5.  If there is some other source of payments that gets put into the Zenpool, can you tell me what that source is in a general way?
The majority of income comes from private companies leasing hashing power for us for specific experiences/projects they are doing.

This what I finally got in the thread that got locked. Do I turn left or right? Yes...

[rdyoung]

We will know soon enough. What is this connection you speak of? Considering they have sold hardware, I don't find it hard to believe the vaultbreakers are real. This is the problem we have trying to figure this out, we have people spouting so called knowledge and intuition when they have only known about gaw for a couple of weeks, I bought my furies months ago and if I can get my current rma issue resolved, I might risk buying one or 2 more.

When Vaultbreaker was announced it was assumed it's based on the same chips as Flower Tech, for a couple of reasons: CEO had mentioned Flower as one of companies he was talking to, and specs seemed to match. Flower recently announced that they failed to produce their miner and postponed delivery until February. GAW insists they will still deliver on time, i.e. end of Q3 / beginning of Q4.

If I can find some links I'll post them here.

This is interesting, BUT allow me to play devils advocate for a moment. There are plenty of chip design/fab companies the world over that we have never heard of. If I was attempting to create a groundbreaking product for something like crypto mining I would be in contact with multiple design firms at the same time, the first one to give me a working prototype that met the specs I had laid out gets the contract. Its possible that because flower couldn't get there chips done in time he went with another company.

[suchmoon]

Josh agreed to answer a few questions via email, so I asked him about the Zenpool payouts.  His responses are in italics.

5.  If there is some other source of payments that gets put into the Zenpool, can you tell me what that source is in a general way?
The majority of income comes from private companies leasing hashing power for us for specific experiences/projects they are doing.

Not bad. Basically a black box. I wonder though where those private companies are hiding that hashpower and why.

[rdyoung]

Why do they have to keep everything secret from their competitors and customers? Now all they're doing is selling a mining contract the same way PBMining is selling a contract. They're the same because they both can't prove that they're actually mining anything. At least with cex.io you can see the blocks your purchased hash has mined. GAW is just another gimmick with great marketing. I feel bad for all the morons that invested thousands of dollars(including myself) in something so rediculous. Everyone save your money and/or and invest in the stock market, don't invest your money in a company that lies, deceives and is getting investigated by the feds. I wonder how long ZenCloud will last of their website gets pounded by a terabit of ddos for a couple months, that should offset some money scammed by these people.

This is one of my other issues. If you were around, remember back to the egold hyip days, a site would say something like "we have developed a proprietary method of generating income from tradeable markets, we must keep this secret so others can't profit" This was a giant redflag with the words ponzi and/or potential scam written all over it.

[rdyoung]

Josh agreed to answer a few questions via email, so I asked him about the Zenpool payouts.  His responses are in italics.

5.  If there is some other source of payments that gets put into the Zenpool, can you tell me what that source is in a general way?
The majority of income comes from private companies leasing hashing power for us for specific experiences/projects they are doing.

Not bad. Basically a black box. I wonder though where those private companies are hiding that hashpower and why.

Except you can't hide hashing power, you can hide the location of the hardware, the company running it. But you can't hide say 100ghs being added to a coin who's network is currently 100ghs, your going to make a splash, unless you do like coinking and split your hashing power among several at the same time, but if you do that you lower your potential profits.