GAW ZenCloud ZenPool Hashlet - does it really exist? ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :-)

[MOB]

Hmm I'm sensing maybe something everybody hates like something in between a and b. I'm going to say $30 primes and only 30ghs in sha mining.

Nope the primes reappeared on the site for 49.95, same as before this whole useless process started by the CEO running that place. Essentially it took the CEO a week to decide to do nothing as of now.

Doesn't mean he won't change it. Anyone buying primes is a sucker. Get zens instead because they'll never mine twice as much as them because there are too many legacy $16 buyers it would ruin gaws margins.

Exactly.  If GAW could turn $1 into $5 so easily then why wouldn't they have gotten all of their funding through venture capital instead of paying an astronomically high loan rate to "customers"?

Because their business model is to make money off of customers through this "mining.". No sin in that, (well, perhaps a felony) but so many of the hashtalk crowd seem to think that GAW exists to make other people rich. The world does not work that way.

If you make money at GAW then it is because some other customer is going to lose it. Just another zero-sum game.

[Jacques de Molay]

Hmm I'm sensing maybe something everybody hates like something in between a and b. I'm going to say $30 primes and only 30ghs in sha mining.

Nope the primes reappeared on the site for 49.95, same as before this whole useless process started by the CEO running that place. Essentially it took the CEO a week to decide to do nothing as of now.

Its not the CEO fault that 90% of the forum there are full of children with idiotic comments, they create endless whiner topics just to be heard because they cant handle being lost in a thread with over 400 posts.

The problem mainly is the upvote/downvote system, so you get all these mouth breathers who love listening to themselves speak posting all day everyday for the off chance someone upvotes them for 1 cent gains.

The ceo should have said nothing and just said FUCKING WAIT for an announcement he gave them 2 options, but no soon as its 1 min past, in comes the endless threads asking for updates/crying for updates/threatening to sell for an update.

The place can be worse than here with that dumb fuck attitude.

Sorry but a lot of the people on this forum and hashtalks think their attitude is commendable/justified but they need a swift kick up the arse to remind them they are out of line.

[dekodoge]

All this subterfuge and misdirection is just to confuse the mugpunters

[sandog]

I wanted to renew some of the discussion - i tried to read from the start but the amount of bunk and hypothetical "investigation" was hard to take. Of course its hard not to be polarised from side of fanboy/girl to "competition".
I have a background in business and IT and many other disciplines even show biz.

When you look into cloudmining - even just to invest a little for fun, its just sickening the range of silly products listed. So many are just "give us money, lol" and you'll get a few days, weeks of mining that have no hope of ROI. So of course if you see something like GAW advertises ... and the vagueness it inspires a lot of mixed feelings.

I invested simply because it was the only thing that i could see people saying "you'll get your money back". But the universe has no "forever" and so the marketting is extremely hyped but non-specific. Now look, its a seriously new business, so would you tell people
a) How we run our business ....
b) Exactly how we will fulfill our promises and when
c) Our formulas and algorithms

If you would lay out this a,b & c well then people would be like lawyers holding you to it and calling you a liar as soon as you found a better way, or perhaps couldn't afford to do it on time and so on. You do kind of have to be vague.

Investing in a company is often completely obscure - and companies that talk about "transparency" are usually just saying that buzz word so they will shut you up and go on spinning you until you give up or get distracted. They know people have short attention spans.

As an investment that has daily payouts ... if you can withdraw. Well that smacks of bitcoin all over - banking. They are becoming a bank of sorts and they are selling you stock in mining ... and how they mine and what is clearly some kind of tie to competing pools. They might make x per hash and just pay you what that pool seems to arbitrarily make.

The electricity costs and maintenance, over time that is going to pay for upgraded hardware so that you are effectively buying them the hardware to upgrade you. When i see that - then i see there is a win-win type business model. They are selling you product over time - initial slices and future upgrades. You are paying for it from the revenue.

Nobody knows how profitable the pools will be over time but there is some experience that shows the way it tends to trend and there is diversity in Scrypt and all the alt-coins.

Now to say that its a "hoax" or a "simulation", a "ponzi" thats fair enough - but thats complete hypothesis. People who sit in some office typing on a forum all day can convince themselves and their friends of anything. Then they can say how obscure the business practice of GAW is and use that as "evidence" but no-evidence one way or the other is not evidence. All GAW has to do is run its investment contracts and daily dividends.

We know they have a lot of ties into the mining industry and they weren't the first group to cloud mine. There are one-man shows out there with enormous warehouses or datacenters. GAW is it's staff - if they have enough to hire one or two great engineers they can go from sucking to brilliance in running a 24/7 operation.

I work in an IT datacenter situation and i have a sense of how it feels. So i know how easily people come up with strange theories. To me GAW is medium term, medium-high risk investment - so yes, they could easily fail due to many factors - like bitcoin staying low valued for too long for example. I wish they had multiple currency balances so you could also store some of your output into other strongish cryptocurrency. Then they would be more like the investment firm they appear to be shaping themselves into.

With a small staff you have to make something vague like these hashlets to get economy of scale - if you try to let people see the details of devices going offline, or their logs, settings ... well thats mad. One day they  might develop into an amazon web services type cloud - that takes a long time to develop the software for. I think it was encouraging to see the CEO say he was inspired by Amazon in that way. I am a long standing user of AWS cloud - which has a lot of stupid things about it but its a good enough product. When i started using it - even though it was backed by Amazon it was very scary and it had downtime - and thats with some ridiculously massive money and staff. So sure, hashlets may indeed just be a virtual front-end to show loosely tied slices of their over-all pools of mining products.

Maybe they make up the difference to keep their daily payouts looking good with other income streams ... if they do that more power to them. Trying to theorise without real information is just making a lot of people in this forum look kind of unstable or trollish to me. It is however much more intelligent here than some other forums.
I literally saw people complain that their 16 buck Hashlet Prime went up and up in price ... its like "dude, are you stupid, your "contract" is actually increasing in value. People confuse being annoyed they can't buy more at the old price with GAW doing something wrong. If you run a business you set price to market demand - clearly they made a good product and people were snapping them up and they redefine the product freely because its up to them what it does as they "upgrade" or whatever.

IT people are kind of known to be a bit autistic - i know i have that tendancy a little. So when something is changing and undefined it makes you uncomfortable or perhaps curl up into a ball and rock back and forth ... but its good for you. If you don't trust GAW well good for you - diversify. I am a total enthusiast here - i only treat this as penny stock type investment but over time i am investing more into the hundreds at a time because i say "look its just like i blew this on food, or some stupid toy" - my video game is the hashlet now ... lol. If GAW go bust - game over, no big deal. If not its me feeding the compute power that keeps cryptocurrency safer from 51% attacks and i am trying to educate as best i can all kinds of people who expect me to be the expert on this stuff.

So i hope i can find some fun discussion and we stay cool, we give good and bad reports about our experiences and leave the obscure and vague side of business alone because its just reality. If you want to know why don't you go to their offices and stake them out and follow them to see if they really have a data-center and then talk your way in like a real social engineer style hacker. Then, let us know.

I apologise for not having read 100 pages of this thread ... just saying i have some investment in the GAW hashlet "contracts" and I would like to help analyse so here is where i am at thinking about their business.

Cheers

[dekodoge]

nice post @sandog

[Trimegistus]

Today I decided to shutdown my small home scrypt mining operation. Now I am planning my future move.

I checked Bitmain's site and they advertise the Antminer L1 to the shipped in December capable of 120 MH/s at a price of $599 (1.464 BTC)

And GAW asks for $1595 for an Hashlet Solo capable of 100 MH/s (MultiPool) or $2095 (ZenPool)

How do these two compare? Am I missing something?

[Honeycutt22]

Today I decided to shutdown my small home scrypt mining operation. Now I am planning my future move.

I checked Bitmains's site and they advertise the Antminer L1 to the shipped in December capable of 120 MH/s at a price of $599 (1.464 BTC)

And GAW asks for $1595 for an Hashlet Solo capable of 100 MH/s (MultiPool) or $2095 ZenPool)

How do these two compare? Am I missing something?

The L1 is a preorder... Scheduled for December... By that time your hashlets would have ROI'd and started making you money.. Plus you can sell them back at 80%...

Really it's a no brainer.

[Trimegistus]

Today I decided to shutdown my small home scrypt mining operation. Now I am planning my future move.

I checked Bitmains's site and they advertise the Antminer L1 to the shipped in December capable of 120 MH/s at a price of $599 (1.464 BTC)

And GAW asks for $1595 for an Hashlet Solo capable of 100 MH/s (MultiPool) or $2095 ZenPool)

How do these two compare? Am I missing something?

The L1 is a preorder... Scheduled for December... By that time your hashlets would have ROI'd and started making you money.. Plus you can sell them back at 80%...

Really it's a no brainer.

You honestly believe that a $2000 investment will ROI before December? Really?

[suchmoon]

a) How we run our business ....
b) Exactly how we will fulfill our promises and when
c) Our formulas and algorithms

If you would lay out this a,b & c well then people would be like lawyers holding you to it and calling you a liar as soon as you found a better way, or perhaps couldn't afford to do it on time and so on. You do kind of have to be vague.

Not really. I don't think GAW needs to provide "formulas and algorithms". You mentioned Amazon. It delivers a verifiable product, whether that's a book, or a box of diapers, or an online video, or an AWS instance. They can be as vague as they want to about HOW they procure these things, but not about WHAT they actually offer.

There is a world of difference between what Amazon does and "give us some money and we promise to maybe pay it back over time". The latter is typically a financial product that comes with all sorts of risks not applicable to other products and services, not to mention regulatory requirements and disclosures. However GAW is selling it as a "miner" at the same time refusing to show even a single mined block. So which is it? I don't believe it's a trustworthy business strategy to be vague to such extremes.

BTW as suggested by some recent photos it could be a "miner" although not actually mining since August but perhaps a pre-order to build out a mining farm by ~October. This scenario also carries certain risks that buyers/investors/whatchamacallit should be aware of.

The rest of it is just gravy. All the mucking around with prices and features, "CEO" acting like a 12-year old, piss poor customer service, inability to QA their own software, the list goes on. A lot of these small and large things don't mean much if taken separately, but as a whole it's somewhat at odds with the image of a "$150 million" company run by "highly trained businessmen" (I love that quote).

[suchmoon]

Today I decided to shutdown my small home scrypt mining operation. Now I am planning my future move.

I checked Bitmains's site and they advertise the Antminer L1 to the shipped in December capable of 120 MH/s at a price of $599 (1.464 BTC)

And GAW asks for $1595 for an Hashlet Solo capable of 100 MH/s (MultiPool) or $2095 ZenPool)

How do these two compare? Am I missing something?

The L1 is a preorder... Scheduled for December... By that time your hashlets would have ROI'd and started making you money.. Plus you can sell them back at 80%...

Really it's a no brainer.

You honestly believe that a $2000 investment will ROI before December? Really?

What difference does it make if it's a $2000 or a $20.95 investment? 1 MH/s has the same chance of ROI as 100 MH/s. But to your point, no, it won't ROI unless something drastically positive happens (i.e. Bitcoin exchange rate moves up, profitability goes up, maintenance goes down). At current rates ZenHashlet earns less than 1% per day, and with the Titans hiking up LTC difficulty this might get worse.

[Honeycutt22]

Today I decided to shutdown my small home scrypt mining operation. Now I am planning my future move.

I checked Bitmains's site and they advertise the Antminer L1 to the shipped in December capable of 120 MH/s at a price of $599 (1.464 BTC)

And GAW asks for $1595 for an Hashlet Solo capable of 100 MH/s (MultiPool) or $2095 ZenPool)

How do these two compare? Am I missing something?

The L1 is a preorder... Scheduled for December... By that time your hashlets would have ROI'd and started making you money.. Plus you can sell them back at 80%...

Really it's a no brainer.

You honestly believe that a $2000 investment will ROI before December? Really?

What difference does it make if it's a $2000 or a $20.95 investment? 1 MH/s has the same chance of ROI as 100 MH/s. But to your point, no, it won't ROI unless something drastically positive happens (i.e. Bitcoin exchange rate moves up, profitability goes up, maintenance goes down). At current rates ZenHashlet earns less than 1% per day, and with the Titans hiking up LTC difficulty this might get worse.

All he has to is sell it, my math may be a bit off but the point remains. My point was buying something now is better than waiting till Dec - and yes he can ROI by that point if he sells it. Plus extra.

Don't really mind if you don't believe me or fall into this is a scam theory. Assuming things go as they have been - he will most definitely make money.

[Trimegistus]

What difference does it make if it's a $2000 or a $20.95 investment? 1 MH/s has the same chance of ROI as 100 MH/s. But to your point, no, it won't ROI unless something drastically positive happens (i.e. Bitcoin exchange rate moves up, profitability goes up, maintenance goes down). At current rates ZenHashlet earns less than 1% per day, and with the Titans hiking up LTC difficulty this might get worse.

Ok, that was my point. I know pre ordering is a very risky business but the price difference is appalling!

120 MH/s for 600 bucks is very different from 100 MH/s for 2000 bucks, regardless of market evolution. And the reseling of hashlets is no more guaranteed than the reseling of any other miners.

I don't know if GAW is a scam and I don't want to get into that debate.

Anyway, for the time being I’ll stick to my Antminers S3 and wait for further developments in the scrypt world.

[bitgeek]

GAW has been operating for over 6 months and had thousands of clients. I can assure you they are not a scam.
Good luck, with your S3

[suchmoon]

All he has to is sell it, my math may be a bit off but the point remains. My point was buying something now is better than waiting till Dec - and yes he can ROI by that point if he sells it. Plus extra.

Don't really mind if you don't believe me or fall into this is a scam theory. Assuming things go as they have been - he will most definitely make money.

Being able to sell it profitably is by no means guaranteed, especially with the fixed price "market" that we have now. Nobody is buying my wafflet for a week now and I wouldn't be so sure that the same thing can't happen to ZenHashlet if the price stays the same and earnings continue to drop.

[MOB]

All he has to is sell it, my math may be a bit off but the point remains. My point was buying something now is better than waiting till Dec - and yes he can ROI by that point if he sells it. Plus extra.

Don't really mind if you don't believe me or fall into this is a scam theory. Assuming things go as they have been - he will most definitely make money.

Being able to sell it profitably is by no means guaranteed, especially with the fixed price "market" that we have now. Nobody is buying my wafflet for a week now and I wouldn't be so sure that the same thing can't happen to ZenHashlet if the price stays the same and earnings continue to drop.

This. No guarantees it will sell, so if your entire strategy depends on mining 25% then selling for 80%, then one could get in some hot water.  If 100MH is selling for ~$600 in December, then nobody will be buying it for $2000 in December. Not even coolaid drinkers. GAW is already seeing a lot of money going toward LTC Gear.

The 80% requirement on Zenpool will become a millstone for people willing to sell for 50%, 40%--anything--to try to not lose money. Why not let the market decide what a hashlet is worth? It should be about 1% less each day to an informed buyer.

(hint: if GAW allowed that then Josh could no longer brag about bringing "ROI" back)

[sandog]

Thanks for your replies and Suchmoon i think this is your thread so don't take me as argumentative. I am here to learn.

I know that anyone that buys anything is used to seeing the earnings drop over time ... i have my own mining going on - not big scale but enough hashing and sha256 to know what you can earn with roughly the same amount of hash as a hashlet. I started to join the same pools that they advertise the solo hashlets as utilising.

What do you call verifiable - i think your concern is you can't trace it and watch it like you can with your own miner. Sure i would also like to configure mine and join them to pools myself but this means controllers need to be able to manage that. The world of product makers trying to be like Steve Jobs and make some sleek looking simple product that does things in a simple way can be infuriating to people who want to look at the nuts and bolts.

So we bought some hashlets - now we own them. For me it will take more than 1 month to form a judgement if i am on the way to an ROI - but what is more interesting is just how long GAW stays in business and when they upgrade their hashlets - if ever. The minute they start selling the 2 MHash product for the same price once payed for 1MHash and don't upgrade the old product would be the same minute they disprove "obsolete proof". Until then its a waiting game.

I am used to business practices being dodgy at start ups ... i just imagine i am there trying to do what they claim to be and how it goes for them.

Cheers

[Honeycutt22]

Thanks for your replies and Suchmoon i think this is your thread so don't take me as argumentative. I am here to learn.

I know that anyone that buys anything is used to seeing the earnings drop over time ... i have my own mining going on - not big scale but enough hashing and sha256 to know what you can earn with roughly the same amount of hash as a hashlet. I started to join the same pools that they advertise the solo hashlets as utilising.

What do you call verifiable - i think your concern is you can't trace it and watch it like you can with your own miner. Sure i would also like to configure mine and join them to pools myself but this means controllers need to be able to manage that. The world of product makers trying to be like Steve Jobs and make some sleek looking simple product that does things in a simple way can be infuriating to people who want to look at the nuts and bolts.

So we bought some hashlets - now we own them. For me it will take more than 1 month to form a judgement if i am on the way to an ROI - but what is more interesting is just how long GAW stays in business and when they upgrade their hashlets - if ever. The minute they start selling the 2 MHash product for the same price once payed for 1MHash and don't upgrade the old product would be the same minute they disprove "obsolete proof". Until then its a waiting game.

I am used to business practices being dodgy at start ups ... i just imagine i am there trying to do what they claim to be and how it goes for them.

Cheers

It wouldn't be obsolete just because a better product comes along that gives 2mh vice 1. That's the risk with hashlets vice the prime. They don't get upgrades and it's known when you purchase.

My interpretation of obsolete (in the mining world) is if it returns negative value. Granted the 2mh Prime upgrade would produce more revenue, it really has no affect on the other hashlets since it's an entirely different product. As long as they are making more than they are taking from maintenance fees they are  not obsolete.

I think the term obsolete gets too readily used in this mining industry and it's use is typically inaccurate.

[Flep182]

120 MH/s for 600 bucks  in december is very different from 100 MH/s for 2000 bucks, regardless of market evolution. And the reseling of hashlets is no more guaranteed than the reseling of any other miners.

Added that.

It would be interesting to calculate estimate if you'd have had a return of the difference by the shippingdate of the L1's.

[suchmoon]

Thanks for your replies and Suchmoon i think this is your thread so don't take me as argumentative. I am here to learn.

I'm not sure it's my thread, I may have created the OP but it has a life of its own. Being argumentative is not the worst thing you can do here

I know that anyone that buys anything is used to seeing the earnings drop over time ... i have my own mining going on - not big scale but enough hashing and sha256 to know what you can earn with roughly the same amount of hash as a hashlet. I started to join the same pools that they advertise the solo hashlets as utilising.

What do you call verifiable - i think your concern is you can't trace it and watch it like you can with your own miner. Sure i would also like to configure mine and join them to pools myself but this means controllers need to be able to manage that. The world of product makers trying to be like Steve Jobs and make some sleek looking simple product that does things in a simple way can be infuriating to people who want to look at the nuts and bolts.

So we bought some hashlets - now we own them. For me it will take more than 1 month to form a judgement if i am on the way to an ROI - but what is more interesting is just how long GAW stays in business and when they upgrade their hashlets - if ever. The minute they start selling the 2 MHash product for the same price once payed for 1MHash and don't upgrade the old product would be the same minute they disprove "obsolete proof". Until then its a waiting game.

I am used to business practices being dodgy at start ups ... i just imagine i am there trying to do what they claim to be and how it goes for them.

Cheers

That's the thing, comparing "cloud" mining to "traditional" businesses like Apple is not really... apples to apples, is it? I don't think that anybody can reasonably doubt Apple's ability to produce a phone, whatever secrets it may contain. There can be some reasonable doubts about a cloud mining company that doesn't have a single block to show for it. I don't care about the "nuts and bolts" of the hashlet aside from just a technical curiosity, but I do care about the long term sustainability of the business model, and so far this ticks all the wrong boxes.

I think we have roughly the same concern but I'm just far more skeptical.

[Trimegistus]

120 MH/s for 600 bucks  in december is very different from 100 MH/s for 2000 bucks, regardless of market evolution. And the reseling of hashlets is no more guaranteed than the reseling of any other miners.

Added that.

It would be interesting to calculate estimate if you'd have had a return of the difference by the shippingdate of the L1's.

Indeed, but my guess is as good as yours :-)

Being a small home miner, I know exactly how profitable my machines are and I've been using the pools theoretically used by the Hashlet.

My best guess now is that it would take a miracle to produce $1400 from now until the end of the year hashing at 100 MH/s.

But, who knows?