GAW ZenCloud ZenPool Hashlet - does it really exist? ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :-)

[Snipe85]

Suchmoon, they are most likely taking a huge risk.

When will they mine?
I think they were mining the whole time, but with less hash than announced (and sold), while paying the rest from the money they made as resellers and spending the cash from shares on hardware (pre-orders).
They wouldn't have to use funds from purchases to finance the payouts just use money they earned selling hardware.

I read on some other site I think it was Genesis Mining, that people who started it were early adopters, who mined bitcoin for years and invested the money into hardware. If Josh and friends put serious cash into BTC (or Doge) in 2013/14 they have more than enough to keep paying dividends for the next couple years.  

Cloud mining is probably a more profitable business for you than for them 

[suchmoon]

Oh look, Primes are back on the zen hash market ($49.95)...

And the thread about the CEO's promise not to sell primes ever again has been deleted.

Unfortunately, google caching didn't get that far:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kOITZ9kGd98J:https://hashtalk.org/topic/11511/prime-question-of-the-community+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk


And an IPO is incoming:

"GAW will have an IPO very soon :grinning: But we will do it in a way that are customers get the upside. Especially Prime owners :grinning:"

GAW is rapidly becoming a source of entertainment to me, that's for sure.

... aaaands it's gone  

Apparently a software error is to blame.

Edit: I mean Primes are gone from the store.

As for the IPO, this is so far up in the shitcoin territory that it's not even funny anymore. Although I don't think any coin yet was so brazen as to have "exclusive" mining. This goes against pretty much everything that crypto currencies stand for. But it is a good way to obscure the massive hashrate, you gotta give them that.

https://hashtalk.org/topic/11623/gaw-ipo-speculation

[eightcylinders]

For folks who still maintain that zencloud might not be a Ponzi even if it is not actually mining, please consider the following (caveat, I do not think that Josh's statements to the effect of no mining are clear and it is still possible there is mining going one, though as others have pointed out it is hard to imagine how such massive mining would go undetected)...

1) Its a Ponzi if hashlet payouts are funded in any respect from the sales of new hashlets.  If not mining, then where do payouts and profits come from?  If the answer is from sales of other miners, then its a ponzi (or pyramid) scheme by definition.  It does not matter if Josh's/GAW's intent is pure gold.  Maybe he truly believes that by amassing incredible market power he/GAW can turn the hashlets into real miners in the future.  Maybe Josh is willing to fund hashlet payouts out of his own pocket, and he is truly serious about making sure that prime hashlet owners will make money regardless of losses.  It doesn't matter, because its still a ponzi if payouts are being funded - in any respect - from sale of new hashlets.

2) Why does it matter?  Because if its a ponzi or pyramid scheme - even a well intentioned one -  all of the investments made by hashlet owners are subject to a serious risk of a "run on the bank" that will eventually collapse the whole system.  This happens when revenue from new hashlet sales is not sufficient to cover withdrawals (and, if Josh is funding losses out of his own pocket, when Josh runs out of money to do so).  This effect will be greatly magnified under 3 obvious circumstances: (A) GAW repurchases miners to keep the price of new hashlet sales higher than what the market would have otherwise dictated, which creates a massive need for new capital (new hashlet sales), (B) GAW exhausts the market of folks willing to pay the premium prices for hashlets that GAW is asking, and/or (C) old hashlet owners who have received a decent return on investment decide to sell in private sales at a discount to what GAW/resellers are asking (thus depriving GAW of revenue needed to fund hashlet

3) Note that in order to prevent a collapse, would have to keep revenue from new hashlets coming in at an ever increasing rate (because sales of new hashlets create an even greater demand for hashlet payouts) and/or prevent payouts from being withdrawn.  So when you see price pumping, cheerleading for new miner sales, BTC withdrawal freezes, bans of private sales, etc. these are all HUGE red flags that would indicate, assuming that hashlet profits are being funded from something other than mining, that the ponzi/pyramid scheme is collapsing or at least hitting some hard bumps.  As more and more folks get worried about this, withdrawals increase which puts even more pressure on new sales and pumping.

4) It is possible that hashlet payouts are funded from something other than new hashlet sales.  But any answer to this question immediately runs into the same issues as a ponzi (and whether or not regarded as a ponzi, all of these schemes would be illegal FYI especially in light of the lack of disclosure and misleading sales representations about hashlets being the next generation of cloud mining).  Consider:

a) GAW takes the money from hashlet sales to trade BTC/alt-coins, arbitrage, etc.  As long as he can "beat" the index (e.g., the relevant pool profits) payouts are good.  But what happens when, as is inevitable, he ends up on the losing side of trades in a day?  This is exactly what happened with Enron traders who then started doubling down to try to make back what they lost and ended up bankrupting an entire company.  

b) GAW invests money from the hashlet sales in some other investment, like stocks, oil, etc.  Same result - eventually even the best traders have a very bad day and then what?

To be clear I am not saying that GAW is doing any of these things.  But you have to ask where hashlet payouts come from if not mining, and how can those payouts be sustained without relying on sales of new hashlets (which would de facto put GAW into the ponzi category).

It is also entirely possible (maybe probable) that GAW in fact has SOME cloud miners but not nearly as many as have been sold as hashlets.  Just like with Maddof, some profits are legitimate.  That doesn't change the analysis for the rest of the payouts if funded by new hashlet sales.

The bottom line is that is matters a LOT how GAW is funding hashlet payouts.  Any answer other than actual mining will lead to huge problems eventually.

[Tripjammer]

Wow people still bitter up on here. Yall making money and you know it! If you sold too early that is your problem but you still made money.

gaw maybe doing crazy things but they still make the most money besides LTC gear...

[forzendiablo]

i have 1 prime that i had as usual miner and upgraded

[knowhow]

where to buy those hashlets prime besides the gaw website im trying to get 1 or more as the price


genesis haslets is a good investment too or no way to go

[suchmoon]

where to buy those hashlets prime besides the gaw website im trying to get 1 or more as the price


genesis haslets is a good investment too or no way to go

The only "legal" way to buy them now is ZenCloud marketplace. Price is around ~$40 per MH/s I think at this moment. Edit: it's actually closer to $30-35 (quantity of 25), cheapest single MH/s is ~36.

Genesis is probably overpriced at the retail price of $9, but again in the marketplace you can find it for ~$6 (per 10 GH/s)... well do the math with your expectation of difficulty changes, exchange rates etc.

[SDRebel]

....

Predictions.  The following is pure speculation.  I will probably get some wrong, but I bet I get the gist of it right.


C) GAW may keep its promise not to create new Prime hashlets, but a large number of prime hashlets will mysteriously become available possibly through resellers or the market.  Since hashlets are virtual anyway, GAW or its resellers could have millions in virtual inventory and still be truthful when saying no new primes will be created.  Now that GAW has cleared out all of the whiners like me who wanted out at a lower price, they may be able to support a higher price in a market for a while and keep selling them directly via the market or indirectly via resellers.

Prediction C - confirmed.

https://hashtalk.org/topic/11566/zighash-has-primes-what/12
https://hashtalk.org/topic/11562/primes-at-hoosierminer/4
https://hashtalk.org/topic/11561/psssssst-primes-back-in-stock-at-hashpros-net/4

indeed, though it was short lived

[SDRebel]

This whole Prime story is actually pretty cool if you think about it. All throughout since the hashlets were first announced the CEO kept repeating how special and valuable they are and how we should buy more and more of them. And despite some fumbles along the way there has been a steady albeit artificial rise in their value:

$16
$20
$25
$30-40 - buy-back recently
$50 - a little hiccup here with plan A/B
$70 - now
$100 - rumored

It stands to reason that anybody who sold their Primes - when the private sales were still allowed, or as a whole account, or through buy-back - or didn't buy them earlier, or didn't convert their Zeus/VB hardware would be feeling sorry now, and anybody looking at this pattern would be thinking if they should jump on the gravy train while they still can.

Now the question is how far up and for how long can it last. $70 for 1 Mh/s is nuts, but so was $25.

i started with hardware ...sold about 120Mh of primes right before the $40 buyback was announced (it was impossible to predict something like that would happen, just bad luck) but I still made money. Lots of them I bought them at about $13 per Mh, i.e. when blackwidows were selling for $125 and then were converted to primes.
i felt I needed to sell because of all the sudden changes from GAW and the huge lack of roadmap and the long list of things that will come at some point in the future

[suchmoon]

Marketplace news: evil hackers were pushing prices down. Withdrawals suspended until order is restored. It's a VERY safe and stable system though.

Edit: or maybe not. Some users are claiming (I don't have a direct source but see the HT thread below) that GAW sent out 25 MH/s activation codes instead of 1 MH/s to some buyers. No hacking apparently.

Ok, I know you don't believe me so here is the original:

https://hashtalk.org/topic/11685/market-update

GAW_CEO
Global Moderator
Industry Innovator

Market Update

Has not come with its challenges. Short version:

A few “individuals” figured out how to exploit the speed of Primes, and create a amount 5 times larger when what they paid for.

This is why you were seeing the price of primes pushed down. They were dumping them on the market to try and “cash out” before we could stop them.

We have temporarily suspended withdraws until we track down the source. I will update you here.

[SDRebel]

Oh look, Primes are back on the zen hash market ($49.95)...

And the thread about the CEO's promise not to sell primes ever again has been deleted.

Unfortunately, google caching didn't get that far:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kOITZ9kGd98J:https://hashtalk.org/topic/11511/prime-question-of-the-community+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk


And an IPO is incoming:

"GAW will have an IPO very soon :grinning: But we will do it in a way that are customers get the upside. Especially Prime owners :grinning:"

GAW is rapidly becoming a source of entertainment to me, that's for sure.

... aaaands it's gone  

Apparently a software error is to blame.

Edit: I mean Primes are gone from the store.

As for the IPO, this is so far up in the shitcoin territory that it's not even funny anymore. Although I don't think any coin yet was so brazen as to have "exclusive" mining. This goes against pretty much everything that crypto currencies stand for. But it is a good way to obscure the massive hashrate, you gotta give them that.

https://hashtalk.org/topic/11623/gaw-ipo-speculation

software error...sure... lol
also, all resellers magically came upon hashlets for a limited time, all at least $10 more expensive

[SDRebel]

where to buy those hashlets prime besides the gaw website im trying to get 1 or more as the price


genesis haslets is a good investment too or no way to go

The only "legal" way to buy them now is ZenCloud marketplace. Price is around ~$40 per MH/s I think at this moment. Edit: it's actually closer to $30-35 (quantity of 25), cheapest single MH/s is ~36.

Genesis is probably overpriced at the retail price of $9, but again in the marketplace you can find it for ~$6 (per 10 GH/s)... well do the math with your expectation of difficulty changes, exchange rates etc.

prices now around ~43 per Mh

[suchmoon]

where to buy those hashlets prime besides the gaw website im trying to get 1 or more as the price


genesis haslets is a good investment too or no way to go

The only "legal" way to buy them now is ZenCloud marketplace. Price is around ~$40 per MH/s I think at this moment. Edit: it's actually closer to $30-35 (quantity of 25), cheapest single MH/s is ~36.

Genesis is probably overpriced at the retail price of $9, but again in the marketplace you can find it for ~$6 (per 10 GH/s)... well do the math with your expectation of difficulty changes, exchange rates etc.

prices now around ~43 per Mh

Yup, seems like those "illegal" 25 MH/s codes were indeed pushing prices down.

[suchmoon]

Ok, so now the whole Prime marketplace has vanished 

I think I'm gonna give up now on trying to sell my poor Fury for at least a week until the dust settles.

[Double Kills]

where to buy those hashlets prime besides the gaw website im trying to get 1 or more as the price


genesis haslets is a good investment too or no way to go

The only "legal" way to buy them now is ZenCloud marketplace. Price is around ~$40 per MH/s I think at this moment. Edit: it's actually closer to $30-35 (quantity of 25), cheapest single MH/s is ~36.

Genesis is probably overpriced at the retail price of $9, but again in the marketplace you can find it for ~$6 (per 10 GH/s)... well do the math with your expectation of difficulty changes, exchange rates etc.

It is not against the rules to buy outside the ZenCloud Marketplace, it is just that it is easy to recover a sold account if you do sell it. This means that even if you are buying from a trusted person you will have the risk that the account be "charged back" to the seller.

They warn of this on their website and are working on a "fix" to this issue

[eightcylinders]

Predictions.  The following is pure speculation.  I will probably get some wrong, but I bet I get the gist of it right.

B) The new hashlet (or whatever it is called) will lack one important feature - it will not have a market and private sales (except through resellers of course) will be banned.  GAW will probably justify this by saying that having a market encouraged speculation and whiners like me to take down morale.  Or maybe they will cite concerns about security or fraud.  So no more sales.  This is essential to enable GAW and its resellers to market new hashlets -- otherwise, the "used" hashlet market will set a market price that will be lower than what GAW/resellers sell for.  Resellers (and the moderators who speak for resellers on hashtalk) will love this.  There will be shill accounts (most likely resellers) who will applaud GAW for getting rid of the buggy and problematic market.  Anyone who questions it will be downvoted out of existence on hashtalk.

Prediction B - 50% confirmed.  Now that GAW has set the stage for the marketplace being taken advantage of by mysterious hackers ... wait ... for ... it ... next will come restrictions.  Then the new hashbase that will not have a market in order to keep hackers from taking advantage.

This would be funny if it weren't so darn predictable.

Those who ignore history ...

EDIT/ADDENDUM:

Do people not realize that the words coming out of GAW do not even make sense?? 

"A few “individuals” figured out how to exploit the speed of Primes, and create a amount 5 times larger when what they paid for."

Another recap:

Some hacker figured out how to use the "speed" of a prime hashlet (because, as we all know, an 11 mhs Prime hashlet is MUCH faster than an 11 mhs Multihashlet!!! lol I am ROTFLMAO .. )

Even if I were to believe that hackers somehow figured out how to break GAW's encryption keys and "exploit" the poor Prime hashlets, how on earth would the "speed of a prime hashlet" have anything to do with it?  It wouldn't.  GAW has repeatedly said that these hashlets are are virtual and have no reality other than as a database entry. 

If there truly was an exploit (highly unlikely IMHO), the only way it could have happened would be if someone could have cracked the encryption used to generate activation keys.  Since activation key encryption is a pretty well known, tried and true, method, this would mean that either GAW is completely incompetent, or else they are being attacked by the dreaded Elite Chinese Military who can crack anything!

Oh, one more prediction:

(D) The hackers exploits will result in GAW having lost too much BTC and therefore withdrawals will be suspended for a period of time.

[NuShrike]

AAANNND... ZenCloud is down!

Code:

Maintenance Mode
It looks like we're working on something!

Why don't you come back later.

[Flep182]

AAANNND... ZenCloud is down!

Code:

Maintenance Mode
It looks like we're working on something!

Why don't you come back later.

Yup, I don't think the HashBase upgrade will be this fast. I was expecting at least 5 more buggy featureupgrades in between.

[Flep182]

I doubt they are going to sneak primes in to the market. Obviously they can't just leak a massive amount of them and they do take 10% of every transaction which works better long term.

I would find it more believable if they didn't have their shills and moderators hyping up the prices in their own forum... it's starting to sound uncannily like so many shitcoin pumps right here on bitcointalk.

Well, I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens next, since I still can't get rid of my stupid "fury".

Selling your fury is easy. Click the hashletsettingsthing and "round up" from 1.3 Mh/s to 2. Then split and sell.

Though I don't know yet whether they've fixed the split/merge bugs. My 250 Gh/s hashlet is still missing.

[cma3]

Predictions.  The following is pure speculation.  I will probably get some wrong, but I bet I get the gist of it right.

B) The new hashlet (or whatever it is called) will lack one important feature - it will not have a market and private sales (except through resellers of course) will be banned.  GAW will probably justify this by saying that having a market encouraged speculation and whiners like me to take down morale.  Or maybe they will cite concerns about security or fraud.  So no more sales.  This is essential to enable GAW and its resellers to market new hashlets -- otherwise, the "used" hashlet market will set a market price that will be lower than what GAW/resellers sell for.  Resellers (and the moderators who speak for resellers on hashtalk) will love this.  There will be shill accounts (most likely resellers) who will applaud GAW for getting rid of the buggy and problematic market.  Anyone who questions it will be downvoted out of existence on hashtalk.

Prediction B - 50% confirmed.  Now that GAW has set the stage for the marketplace being taken advantage of by mysterious hackers ... wait ... for ... it ... next will come restrictions.  Then the new hashbase that will not have a market in order to keep hackers from taking advantage.

This would be funny if it weren't so darn predictable.

Those who ignore history ...

EDIT/ADDENDUM:

Do people not realize that the words coming out of GAW do not even make sense?? 

"A few “individuals” figured out how to exploit the speed of Primes, and create a amount 5 times larger when what they paid for."

Another recap:

Some hacker figured out how to use the "speed" of a prime hashlet (because, as we all know, an 11 mhs Prime hashlet is MUCH faster than an 11 mhs Multihashlet!!! lol I am ROTFLMAO .. )

Even if I were to believe that hackers somehow figured out how to break GAW's encryption keys and "exploit" the poor Prime hashlets, how on earth would the "speed of a prime hashlet" have anything to do with it?  It wouldn't.  GAW has repeatedly said that these hashlets are are virtual and have no reality other than as a database entry. 

If there truly was an exploit (highly unlikely IMHO), the only way it could have happened would be if someone could have cracked the encryption used to generate activation keys.  Since activation key encryption is a pretty well known, tried and true, method, this would mean that either GAW is completely incompetent, or else they are being attacked by the dreaded Elite Chinese Military who can crack anything!

Oh, one more prediction:

(D) The hackers exploits will result in GAW having lost too much BTC and therefore withdrawals will be suspended for a period of time.

IRT to the "hacking" as you portray it -- i think this was simply a couple of users figured out how to abuse the double dip and boost combination to avoid the rest periods... or something along those lines. I dont think it was an algorithm hack or stolen codes. But I have no proof of this.

IRT to everything else -- announcements, IPO, Hashbase, Primes, Primes as Stock/Ownership, LTC price in relation to Zen, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc ----- it'll be interesting to see how this all pans out.