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Author Topic: Gigamining / Teramining  (Read 201718 times)
Daily Anarchist
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June 11, 2012, 04:46:09 PM
 #301

These aren't shares. They're bonds. As far as I'm concerned the price per bond can drop to 0.01 BTC. Then I'd be able to buy a ton of them for super cheap and get fat payments every week. The only thing that concerns me about these bonds is whether or not my weekly dividends will drop due to increased difficulty.

The goal of the issuer of the bonds is to sell them for as much as he possibly can. If he sells them for less than he can get on the open market he's leaving money on the table. Sure, he could offer 20,000 new bonds at 1.5 BTC, but who will buy them? Not very many, and he would probably rather sell 20,000 new bonds at 1 BTC than 1,000 new bonds at 1.5.

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June 11, 2012, 04:49:16 PM
 #302

These aren't shares. They're bonds. As far as I'm concerned the price per bond can drop to 0.01 BTC. Then I'd be able to buy a ton of them for super cheap and get fat payments every week. The only thing that concerns me about these bonds is whether or not my weekly dividends will drop due to increased difficulty.

The goal of the issuer of the bonds is to sell them for as much as he possibly can. If he sells them for less than he can get on the open market he's leaving money on the table. Sure, he could offer 20,000 new bonds at 1.5 BTC, but who will buy them? Not very many, and he would probably rather sell 20,000 new bonds at 1 BTC than 1,000 new bonds at 1.5.

Interesting point

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June 11, 2012, 04:52:18 PM
 #303

In other words, he can sell you this week 10000 bonds at 1.5. Next week he sells 10000 at 1. The market reacts and the value goes to 1. He buys back your bonds at 1.05 and you are out of .45.
This means that the first investors are screwed. And you are OK with it and with him maximizing profits.

These aren't shares. They're bonds. As far as I'm concerned the price per bond can drop to 0.01 BTC. Then I'd be able to buy a ton of them for super cheap and get fat payments every week. The only thing that concerns me about these bonds is whether or not my weekly dividends will drop due to increased difficulty.

The goal of the issuer of the bonds is to sell them for as much as he possibly can. If he sells them for less than he can get on the open market he's leaving money on the table. Sure, he could offer 20,000 new bonds at 1.5 BTC, but who will buy them? Not very many, and he would probably rather sell 20,000 new bonds at 1 BTC than 1,000 new bonds at 1.5.

Interesting point

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June 11, 2012, 04:53:46 PM
 #304

These aren't shares. They're bonds.
Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

Check out gocoin - my original project of a bitcoin client written in Go, with some unique features.
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June 11, 2012, 04:59:30 PM
 #305

These aren't shares. They're bonds.
Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

There's a huge difference between bonds and shares. If you own X amount of shares then it is essentially Y amount of ownership of a company. If a bunch of new shares get created and the percentage of your ownership of the company drops, then you would definitely be angry. But bonds don't affect your dividends whatsoever. If you paid 1.5 BTC and a week later the price drops to 1 BTC, then you made a bad choice when to buy. But the price could have dropped to 1 BTC because some other owner of bonds, not necessarily the issuer, sold off a bunch of shares. Actually, I think you'll find that the price per bond becomes more stable with more bonds out there.

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June 11, 2012, 04:59:39 PM
 #306

These aren't shares. They're bonds.
Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

This is what they are trying to say.  A bond issuer does not need to care if the bond on the secondary market drops or rises.  A bond issuer does not have to answer to the bondholders unless there is a forced buyback clause that the bondholders can institute.  If this was a share, then the CEO would care about the drop in price as he or she does have to answer to the shareholders.

Didn't you think there would be a risk of decline in a market like GLBSE when it was selling for 1.5 BTC each?

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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June 11, 2012, 05:06:07 PM
 #307

These aren't shares. They're bonds.
Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

This is what they are trying to say.  A bond issuer does not need to care if the bond on the secondary market drops or rises.  A bond issuer does not have to answer to the bondholders unless there is a forced buyback clause that the bondholders can institute.  If this was a share, then the CEO would care about the drop in price as he or she does have to answer to the shareholders.

Didn't you think there would be a risk of decline in a market like GLBSE when it was selling for 1.5 BTC each?
OK - thanks for explaining. I got your point.

Now, knowing that a bond issuer does not care about the secondary market price, I will be more careful when buying some other bonds.
In fact I'm not that angry - I think what I have learned here was worth the price I paid Smiley

Check out gocoin - my original project of a bitcoin client written in Go, with some unique features.
PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB  9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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June 11, 2012, 05:12:39 PM
 #308

These aren't shares. They're bonds.
Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

This is what they are trying to say.  A bond issuer does not need to care if the bond on the secondary market drops or rises.  A bond issuer does not have to answer to the bondholders unless there is a forced buyback clause that the bondholders can institute.  If this was a share, then the CEO would care about the drop in price as he or she does have to answer to the shareholders.

Didn't you think there would be a risk of decline in a market like GLBSE when it was selling for 1.5 BTC each?
OK - thanks for explaining. I got your point.

Now, knowing that a bond issuer does not care about the secondary market price, I will be more careful when buying some other bonds.
In fact I'm not that angry - I think what I have learned here was worth the price I paid Smiley

Well, he does sort of care. When he wants to raise more money the higher the Price to Earnings ratio is, the better for him. Imagine if there was so much demand in the secondary market where each bond was fetching 10 BTC while still paying out 0.023 BTC weekly. Then he'd be able to sell bonds for a lot more and pay out a lot less. Conversely, if each bond is only fetching 0.5 BTC while paying out 0.023 BTC weekly, he's got to sell a lot more bonds.

There is definitely an incentive for the issuer to care about the price per bond. The higher the better. Generally, the better credit rating of bond issuers the higher the price. The Bitcoin community doesn't yet have credit rating agencies. But eventually, they will. Gigamining would likely earn a AA rating, whereas some of the upstarts who have no reputation might only have a C rating.

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June 11, 2012, 05:15:50 PM
 #309

I'm just saying that if I was running a business and decided to raise more funds by selling thousands of new cheap bonds under the counter, I would have made a contract with the buyer which states that he would not be allowed to dump them onto the market, just right after buying them.

And Gigamining apparently did not make such a deal - he made more of a deal like "take this 13k bonds for 0.99 and do whatever you want with them - I don't care".

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June 11, 2012, 05:18:42 PM
 #310

I'm just saying that if I was running this business and decided to raise some more funds by selling a thousands of new underpriced bonds under the counter, I would have made a contract with the buyer which states that he would not be allowed to dump them onto the market, just right after buying them.
And he apparently did not make such a deal - he made a deal "take this 13k bonds for 0.99 and do whatever you want with them - I don't care".

Do you have any evidence that the private bond buyer was the one who sold them? There were only about a hundred bid orders that separated 1.5 from 1.0. Any old goobstain could have sold those off for any reason.

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June 11, 2012, 05:21:55 PM
 #311

I'm just saying that if I was running this business and decided to raise some more funds by selling a thousands of new underpriced bonds under the counter, I would have made a contract with the buyer which states that he would not be allowed to dump them onto the market, just right after buying them.
And he apparently did not make such a deal - he made a deal "take this 13k bonds for 0.99 and do whatever you want with them - I don't care".

Do you have any evidence that the private bond buyer was the one who sold them? There were only about a hundred bid orders that separated 1.5 from 1.0. Any old goobstain could have sold those off for any reason.

I think you are the private investor. Tongue


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June 11, 2012, 05:22:31 PM
 #312

These aren't shares. They're bonds.
Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.
You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.
Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer would most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit - right?

Check out gocoin - my original project of a bitcoin client written in Go, with some unique features.
PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB  9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
redbeans2012
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June 11, 2012, 05:27:38 PM
 #313

These aren't shares. They're bonds.
Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.
You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.
Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer will most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit, right?

I don't care about the price of the bond day to day.
I plan to hold on to them for a very long time.
All I care about is the yield.

You're upset because of the price.
That is because you're a daytrader.
And what's more, a daytrader in a market with no liquidity. LOL.
You deserve the angst.
Hopefully it'll end up teaching you the difference between investing and daytrading.



While more of an investor than a day trader, they come in handy in adding liquidity to the market. 

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June 11, 2012, 05:28:23 PM
 #314

These aren't shares. They're bonds.
Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.
You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.
Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer will most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit, right?

I don't care about the price of the bond day to day.
I plan to hold on to them for a very long time.
All I care about is the yield.

You're upset because of the price.
That is because you're a daytrader.
And what's more, a daytrader in a market with no liquidity. LOL.
You deserve the angst.
Hopefully it'll end up teaching you the difference between investing and daytrading.
No - you are wrong.
I am not a day trader and I am not upset because of the few BTC I lost on the price difference, since I bought your bonds.

I am upset because you are arrogant and because you only care about your own interest - not anymore about the people who helped you in the first place.

Check out gocoin - my original project of a bitcoin client written in Go, with some unique features.
PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB  9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
redbeans2012
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June 11, 2012, 05:30:39 PM
 #315

These aren't shares. They're bonds.
Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.
You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.
Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer will most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit, right?

I don't care about the price of the bond day to day.
I plan to hold on to them for a very long time.
All I care about is the yield.

You're upset because of the price.
That is because you're a daytrader.
And what's more, a daytrader in a market with no liquidity. LOL.
You deserve the angst.
Hopefully it'll end up teaching you the difference between investing and daytrading.
No - you are wrong.
I am not a day trader and I am not upset because of the few BTC I lost on the price difference, since I bought your bonds.

I am upset because you are arrogant and because you only care about your own interest - not about the people who helped you in the first place.

Oh he's part of gigamining, Lordy

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June 11, 2012, 05:31:04 PM
 #316

These aren't shares. They're bonds.
Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.
You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.
Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer will most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit, right?

I don't care about the price of the bond day to day.
I plan to hold on to them for a very long time.
All I care about is the yield.

You're upset because of the price.
That is because you're a daytrader.
And what's more, a daytrader in a market with no liquidity. LOL.
You deserve the angst.
Hopefully it'll end up teaching you the difference between investing and daytrading.
No - you are wrong.
I am not a day trader and I am not upset because of the few BTC I lost on the price difference, since I bought your bonds.

I am upset because you are arrogant and because you only care about your own interest - not about the people who helped you in the first place.

This is why I LOVE BITCOIN and AGORISM. No socialist regulations draining OUR stock market!

Discover anarcho-capitalism today!
piotr_n
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June 11, 2012, 05:39:33 PM
 #317

My bonds ?
What are smoking over there ?
Can I have some ?

These are not my bonds, these are giga's.

I am just an investor like you are, except I'm not wetting my panties
every time there is a 10 cents price swing on a volume of 3 bonds.
Oh sorry - I took you for someone else.
Haven't smoked anything yet today, just drinking a second bier Smiley

I told you already: it's not a price drop that makes me upset - it's the conditions on which the new bonds were sold.
It's just not fair for the old bond holders to sell new bonds for < 1.0 and allow the buyer to immediately dump them onto the market.
But you think it's fair, don't you?

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June 11, 2012, 05:45:46 PM
 #318

OK - thanks for explaining. I got your point.

Now, knowing that a bond issuer does not care about the secondary market price, I will be more careful when buying some other bonds.
In fact I'm not that angry - I think what I have learned here was worth the price I paid Smiley

It is funny how that works. Smart people learn from their experience and smarter people learn from other people's experience.

If you are smart enough to figure it out then you have just gotten a lesson in liquidity and bond valuation relative to discounts and premiums along with discounted future cash flows and a little bit of business cycle theory. I will reiterate a helpful source for you to start at:

Higher quality counter-parties, like GIGAMINING or BITBOND in my opinion, should result in greater bond premiums (How To Value A Bond).

Another basic text would be Explaining Malinvestment and Overinvestment.

You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.
Quote
Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer would most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit - right?



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June 11, 2012, 05:50:24 PM
 #319

This volatility was perfect for day traders.  10 hours ago GIGAMINING increased 14.61% from its open that day.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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June 11, 2012, 05:51:13 PM
 #320

Fine - I'm a socialist and I know nothing about economy - call me like this if you will, it doesn't sound offensive to me. Smiley

And moreover, I will keep these few tens of bonds, hoping that the dividends will pay me up the difference one day...
But I said what I had to say: I don't think these new bonds were sold out quite perfectly.

Check out gocoin - my original project of a bitcoin client written in Go, with some unique features.
PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB  9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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