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Author Topic: Gigamining / Teramining  (Read 201590 times)
pieppiep
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October 07, 2012, 07:21:31 PM
 #1001

I like the transparency of gigamining, especially the site where you see the status of all your miners.
Maybe it would be a nice idea to transfer the coins you would have normally paid on glbse to the bond holders to a special bitcoinaddress.
That way everybody can see the coins are still there for when you will be able to pay them to the bond holders.
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szuetam
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October 07, 2012, 09:55:02 PM
 #1002

I like the transparency of gigamining, especially the site where you see the status of all your miners.
Maybe it would be a nice idea to transfer the coins you would have normally paid on glbse to the bond holders to a special bitcoinaddress.
That way everybody can see the coins are still there for when you will be able to pay them to the bond holders.

+1
jamesg
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October 07, 2012, 10:27:50 PM
 #1003

Maybe it would be a nice idea to transfer the coins you would have normally paid on glbse to the bond holders to a special bitcoinaddress.
That way everybody can see the coins are still there for when you will be able to pay them to the bond holders.

Hi pieppiep,

GLBSE has the coupon payment for tomorrow which is 470 coins. I sent the coins to GLBSE hours before Nefario decided to shut down the site. I continue to mine as you can see from the status pages and will continue to stockpile the coins.

Best,
gigavps
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October 07, 2012, 10:31:20 PM
 #1004

Maybe it would be a nice idea to transfer the coins you would have normally paid on glbse to the bond holders to a special bitcoinaddress.
That way everybody can see the coins are still there for when you will be able to pay them to the bond holders.

Hi pieppiep,

GLBSE has the coupon payment for tomorrow which is 470 coins. I sent the coins to GLBSE hours before Nefario decided to shut down the site. I continue to mine as you can see from the status pages and will continue to stockpile the coins.

Best,
gigavps

So, to late, but:

You can estimate some address, public it here and transfer in future coins which should belong to us to make it possible for us to check them waiting, even if it will be forever.
Right?
jamesg
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October 07, 2012, 10:39:57 PM
 #1005

So, to late, but:

You can estimate some address, public it here and transfer in future coins which should belong to us to make it possible for us to check them waiting, even if it will be forever.
Right?

I doubt I will be putting too many coins at any single address. The coins are in my local wallet that has been backed up.
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October 07, 2012, 11:21:05 PM
 #1006

Giga,

Feel free to reach out to me to discuss any legal issues.  I'm debating setting up a bitcoin mining company as well and would gladly share anything I know and help you research anything you need to look into since I'll likely need to research it myself.

Good luck!

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stochastic
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October 08, 2012, 03:50:42 AM
 #1007

Change the structure of gigamining.  Instead of it being described as a bond, have people lease the hardware indefinitely.  People transfer leases all the time.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
Garr255
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October 08, 2012, 04:38:02 AM
 #1008

Change the structure of gigamining.  Instead of it being described as a bond, have people lease the hardware indefinitely.  People transfer leases all the time.

I believe that's how Sony "sells" their PS3s as well. Just a perpetual transferable lease. It makes sense for the mining companies to take this path when and if legal issues arise.

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October 08, 2012, 04:57:33 AM
 #1009

Change the structure of gigamining.  Instead of it being described as a bond, have people lease the hardware indefinitely.  People transfer leases all the time.

I believe that's how Sony "sells" their PS3s as well. Just a perpetual transferable lease. It makes sense for the mining companies to take this path when and if legal issues arise.
+1 Sounds like a good option.
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October 08, 2012, 07:22:27 AM
 #1010

Change the structure of gigamining.  Instead of it being described as a bond, have people lease the hardware indefinitely.  People transfer leases all the time.

I believe that's how Sony "sells" their PS3s as well. Just a perpetual transferable lease. It makes sense for the mining companies to take this path when and if legal issues arise.

You dont lease a PS3 with the aim of making money.
And I fear just relabeling it wont really help. I came across this, granted, for Arizona, but I suspect it will similar all over:

I. Defining a Security.
 The first step in deciding whether the securities statutes apply is to determine whether the transaction at issue actually involves a “security”. Arizona broadly defines a security as any:

[N]ote, stock, treasury stock, bond, commodity investment contract, commodity option, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate, preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share, investment contract, viatical or life settlement investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas or other mineral rights, real property investment contract or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly known as a “security”, or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any of the foregoing.[7]

The definition for each of these securities is either listed in the Act under A.R.S. Section 44-1801 or provided by judicial interpretations and tests.[8] In determining whether a certain instrument is a security, a court will consider the substance rather than the form of the instrument.[9] “Essentially, if the purchaser will be a passive owner―relying on someone else’s efforts or conduct in order to make money on the investment―the instrument is probably a security.”[10]

http://www.mitchell-attorneys.com/legal-articles/securities-registration-and-exemption/
jamesg
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October 08, 2012, 11:48:46 AM
 #1011

Good morning Gigaminers:

As I'm sure most of you are well aware, this morning should mean another coupon payment. Unfortunately, due to events related to GLBSE and outside my control, coupon payments will not be made today. This makes me unbelievably upset, as I'm sure it does most of you.

I also stated before, that today I will retain counsel to best decide what to do with the situation we are faced. I appreciate all of your suggestions and comments, but please be patient while I work through all of the issues we face.

Best,
gigavps
SysRun
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October 08, 2012, 06:27:43 PM
 #1012

keep us posted. I'm glad payments aren't being made, they would just go to glbse wallets right now.

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theGECK
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October 08, 2012, 06:50:02 PM
 #1013

Good morning Gigaminers:

As I'm sure most of you are well aware, this morning should mean another coupon payment. Unfortunately, due to events related to GLBSE and outside my control, coupon payments will not be made today. This makes me unbelievably upset, as I'm sure it does most of you.

I also stated before, that today I will retain counsel to best decide what to do with the situation we are faced. I appreciate all of your suggestions and comments, but please be patient while I work through all of the issues we face.

Best,
gigavps

Meni is facing a situation similar to yours with PUREMINING.

One thing he's started doing is to directly collect (GLBSE username, Bitcoin Address, Number of shares claimed to be held by username) triples.

This can clearly be faked, but it's a starting point if worse comes to worse
(e.g., Nefario could just confirm/invalidate triples instead of having to disclose
them himself).




I think it's a good idea to start doing this - if you need an easy way to collect them you can create a form in Google Docs that people could fill out, and then when you get the information from Nefario you can verify it.

It might be an issue for me (and some others, possibly) who did not associate (or don't remember associating) an address to withdraw BTC from. I sent BTC to my GLBSE account, but I'd need to figure out what address sent those coins each time. I guess I just have to see what information I'll have to provide to verify my account.

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mtbitcoin
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October 08, 2012, 07:16:43 PM
 #1014

Good morning Gigaminers:

As I'm sure most of you are well aware, this morning should mean another coupon payment. Unfortunately, due to events related to GLBSE and outside my control, coupon payments will not be made today. This makes me unbelievably upset, as I'm sure it does most of you.

I also stated before, that today I will retain counsel to best decide what to do with the situation we are faced. I appreciate all of your suggestions and comments, but please be patient while I work through all of the issues we face.

Best,
gigavps

Meni is facing a situation similar to yours with PUREMINING.

One thing he's started doing is to directly collect (GLBSE username, Bitcoin Address, Number of shares claimed to be held by username) triples.

This can clearly be faked, but it's a starting point if worse comes to worse
(e.g., Nefario could just confirm/invalidate triples instead of having to disclose
them himself).




I think it's a good idea to start doing this - if you need an easy way to collect them you can create a form in Google Docs that people could fill out, and then when you get the information from Nefario you can verify it.

It might be an issue for me (and some others, possibly) who did not associate (or don't remember associating) an address to withdraw BTC from. I sent BTC to my GLBSE account, but I'd need to figure out what address sent those coins each time. I guess I just have to see what information I'll have to provide to verify my account.

The most straight forward way that i can think is to verify via email addresses. An automated link can be sent to email addresses on file with instructions on how to claim your shares.

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Naelr
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October 08, 2012, 11:50:05 PM
 #1015

Change the structure of gigamining.  Instead of it being described as a bond, have people lease the hardware indefinitely.  People transfer leases all the time.

I believe that's how Sony "sells" their PS3s as well. Just a perpetual transferable lease. It makes sense for the mining companies to take this path when and if legal issues arise.

You dont lease a PS3 with the aim of making money.
And I fear just relabeling it wont really help. I came across this, granted, for Arizona, but I suspect it will similar all over:

I. Defining a Security.
 The first step in deciding whether the securities statutes apply is to determine whether the transaction at issue actually involves a “security”. Arizona broadly defines a security as any:

[N]ote, stock, treasury stock, bond, commodity investment contract, commodity option, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate, preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share, investment contract, viatical or life settlement investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas or other mineral rights, real property investment contract or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly known as a “security”, or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any of the foregoing.[7]

The definition for each of these securities is either listed in the Act under A.R.S. Section 44-1801 or provided by judicial interpretations and tests.[8] In determining whether a certain instrument is a security, a court will consider the substance rather than the form of the instrument.[9] “Essentially, if the purchaser will be a passive owner―relying on someone else’s efforts or conduct in order to make money on the investment―the instrument is probably a security.”[10]

http://www.mitchell-attorneys.com/legal-articles/securities-registration-and-exemption/


What I want to know is where were all these legal aids when all these bitcoin securities started up?  If you guys knew all this before why not put it out there?  So now do all of us bond holders need to pony up some dough for lawyers?   Would have been nice to know some of this before buying into these, I guess I can say it is partly my fault for not looking into all the angles but it is just strange that all these legal aids have come crawling out of the woodwork....

just my 2 bit cents.

Naelr

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Beans
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October 09, 2012, 03:40:37 AM
 #1016

What I want to know is where were all these legal aids when all these bitcoin securities started up?  If you guys knew all this before why not put it out there?  So now do all of us bond holders need to pony up some dough for lawyers?   Would have been nice to know some of this before buying into these, I guess I can say it is partly my fault for not looking into all the angles but it is just strange that all these legal aids have come crawling out of the woodwork....

just my 2 bit cents.

Naelr

Stop being so dramatic, there is nothing to be done now. I don't know why you would trust someone online, with so much a lawyer would be necessary. If you have a issue with anyone it should be Nefario, he's the one who just put the trading value to zero. A issuer can only do what they know is honest. If they wanted to be jerk's they could just repurchase the share's for next to nothing.
Bitcoin Oz
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October 09, 2012, 03:48:20 AM
 #1017

Change the structure of gigamining.  Instead of it being described as a bond, have people lease the hardware indefinitely.  People transfer leases all the time.

I believe that's how Sony "sells" their PS3s as well. Just a perpetual transferable lease. It makes sense for the mining companies to take this path when and if legal issues arise.

You dont lease a PS3 with the aim of making money.
And I fear just relabeling it wont really help. I came across this, granted, for Arizona, but I suspect it will similar all over:

I. Defining a Security.
 The first step in deciding whether the securities statutes apply is to determine whether the transaction at issue actually involves a “security”. Arizona broadly defines a security as any:

[N]ote, stock, treasury stock, bond, commodity investment contract, commodity option, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate, preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share, investment contract, viatical or life settlement investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas or other mineral rights, real property investment contract or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly known as a “security”, or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any of the foregoing.[7]

The definition for each of these securities is either listed in the Act under A.R.S. Section 44-1801 or provided by judicial interpretations and tests.[8] In determining whether a certain instrument is a security, a court will consider the substance rather than the form of the instrument.[9] “Essentially, if the purchaser will be a passive owner―relying on someone else’s efforts or conduct in order to make money on the investment―the instrument is probably a security.”[10]

http://www.mitchell-attorneys.com/legal-articles/securities-registration-and-exemption/


You arent making money you are making bitcoins. Its not your problem if someone later sells the bitcoin for money.

Puppet
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October 09, 2012, 06:34:38 AM
 #1018

Unfortunately, as I have to keep repeating over and over, the law that defines securities doesnt even mention "money", let alone legal tender, it mentions value, and its hard to argue bitcoin has no value.
Bitinvestor
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October 09, 2012, 07:04:28 AM
 #1019

What I want to know is where were all these legal aids when all these bitcoin securities started up?  If you guys knew all this before why not put it out there?

It was out there. For example, here is a thread from 2011:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46486

Those who cause problems for others also cause problems for themselves.
Puppet
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October 09, 2012, 07:46:08 AM
 #1020


What I want to know is where were all these legal aids when all these bitcoin securities started up?  If you guys knew all this before why not put it out there?  So now do all of us bond holders need to pony up some dough for lawyers?   Would have been nice to know some of this before buying into these, I guess I can say it is partly my fault for not looking into all the angles but it is just strange that all these legal aids have come crawling out of the woodwork....

just my 2 bit cents.

Naelr

It was brought up several times, but too many people, including Nefario, thought (and some still think) that because it relates to bitcoins, somehow laws dont apply to it. The "bitcoin isnt money" fallacy,  failing to understand the issue is the security itself, not the means with which its purchased or traded against (ie bitcoin) .

But the question would be best directed towards asset issuers, as they are the ones taking on the biggest legal risk. Most of these laws exist to protect investors, and if this were to come for court, I wouldnt be surprised that on top of any fines,  asset holders had to be fully reimbursed by the issuers - even if rolling back all trades will likely be an administrative nightmare.

Anyway, it may not come to that, all things considered, GLBSE is small potatoes and the SEC/FSA is not likely interested in going to court with each and every asset issuer over this (they may go after Nefario though), and they may be content with some reasonable settlement as long as going forward,  the law is no longer broken.  But if you as an investor, feel that you are not compensated fairly, you probably stand a good chance in court, or at least you will have serious stick to threaten asset issuers with to come to a reasonable settlement in case the SEC does nothing.
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