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Author Topic: Gigamining / Teramining  (Read 201641 times)
nebulus
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November 24, 2012, 05:24:42 PM
 #1281

May I ask that if James is taking the legal route that everyone else does the same.

He is requesting information via PM on this forum and at the same time asking everyone to correspond with his lawyer. Do not help him fuck you over.

The request for PM is for if you need to know if you are on the GLBSE list.

Do not the two emails I've received from him already confirm that I am on the list?

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November 24, 2012, 05:31:32 PM
 #1282

What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?
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November 24, 2012, 05:39:09 PM
 #1283

RE: the LLC - if I was in his position I'd do the same thing and protect my livelihood and my personal assets.

It does not seems the wisest move in order to that aims, and I actually hope that it will backfire spectacularly. It is more likely a trick to try to steal legally.
Neither is wise to ask "how high?" when he says "jump!", since the answer may well be "higher".

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November 24, 2012, 05:43:16 PM
 #1284

Information linking emails to Bitcoin addresses has been provided. The next step is to contact the email address and request a signed message from the respective Bitcoin address. Once that is done, it's reasonable to conclude the owner is legitimate.

Let's sum things up here:

I. GIGAMINING shares were being traded on the GLBSE platform.

II. GLBSE is discontinued (in the most disorderly way possible).

A month passes.

III. The operator is tagged as a scammer.

Another month passes.

IV. A list of asset holders is produced, by the ex-operator now tagged as a scammer. This list is declared incomplete by the author himself. The list is delivered as plaintext over mail to the issuer of GIGAMINING.

This brings us about up to date. Of the multitude of people on this Forum (F), some are (Fo) and some are not (Fno) owners of GIGAMINING shares. Those who claim shares (Fc) will be some but not all of Fo and some but not all of Fno. Of the Fo, some but not all will be on the list. Of the people on the list, it is at this point hoped but unprovable that all are in fact Fo.

There's a lot of sets, a lot of overlap and pretty much nothing definite to go on. Anyone can claim they're in the Fo. With the information so far available there's not in fact any way to either prove or falsify such a claim. Being able to verify the control of a Bitcoin address is a good step forward. However, NOT being able to do so does not necessarily prove anything. Suppose the person used an old wallet they meanwhile abandoned to send money to GLBSE a significant interval ago and never since made withdrawals. Suppose the person only used a 3rd party, such as for instance some webwallet service that doesn't support signing or that mixes client funds.

So look at it from the other end:

1. Person makes claim for Fo, is on list, is able to sign with address. Are they a legitimate owner? Maybe (unless, for instance, they colluded with Nefario to falsify the list for their benefit - which'd be one possible explanation for the delay).
2. Person makes claim for Fo, is on the list, is not able to sign with address. Are they a legitimate owner? Maybe.
3. Person makes claim for Fo, is not on the list. Are they a legitimate owner? Maybe (and they for any of a host of reasons weren't included).
4. Person makes no claim for Fo. Are they a legitimate owner? Maybe.

All I see is Maybes. For this to be resolvable painlessly i'd have to see nothing but Yes or No. No Maybes.

Now, you say "it's reasonable to conclude". Is this you offering an indemnity, in the sense you'll pay out of pocket anything and everything if that assumption turns sour? Yes, my choice of words may not be to your liking. Sticks and stones.

Sticks and stones, because this is a story of sticks and stones, and apparently words cannot quite paper over the chasm of a categorical difference.

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November 24, 2012, 05:44:45 PM
 #1285

What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?

IMO it will be best to redistribute them among others. Anyway this topic is getting out of control....

One more thing, about the Terramining upgrade... what will be the terms, it's important to know this information, so that we can decide whether or not to do the claims, because IF everything is OK with the ASICs these 5 MH/s will worth nothing in just several weeks (months), and no point to invest money and time for "affidavit" documents.

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November 24, 2012, 05:45:50 PM
 #1286

Do not the two emails I've received from him already confirm that I am on the list?

Correct.
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November 24, 2012, 05:49:19 PM
 #1287

What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?

This is a good question. Maybe start the gigacharity?

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November 24, 2012, 05:50:42 PM
 #1288

What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?

IMO it will be best to redistribute them among others.

Just in case you want to become an accomplice of a crime.

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November 24, 2012, 05:55:14 PM
 #1289

What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?

IMO it will be best to redistribute them among others.

Just in case you want to become an accomplice of a crime.

Good point!!! So there is no right decision...

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November 24, 2012, 05:58:24 PM
 #1290

Though the 5 Mh will worth nothing once the ASICs are out. But still, the Bitcoin( dividend of the shares) worth something. Shouldnt they be distrubuted? Giga knows our address!

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November 24, 2012, 06:00:08 PM
 #1291

Just in case you want to become an accomplice of a crime.

Good point!!! So there is no right decision...

The right decision is to send the scammer in a supermax jail in company of Madoff a.s.a.p., since he likes the law.

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November 24, 2012, 07:05:14 PM
 #1292

What's going to happen to the bonds whose owners don't submit the required information? You pocket them? Transfer them to bitcoin foundation? Something else?

It's too early to tell and too early to even make tentative plans because gigavps and his legal counsel have no idea how many will end up being unclaimed and what the actual legal responsibilities are for contracts made on GLBSE specificially. Once legal representation is involved, things move slowly - so we might find out the answer to this several months to several years after operations start as normal, depending upon any legal or regulatory action that is taken against his LLC or Bitcoin itself. The primary responsibility is moving forward in a conservative, bureaucratic manner so that the shares that do get claimed don't have another problem like this again.

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November 24, 2012, 08:38:14 PM
 #1293

There's a lot of sets, a lot of overlap and pretty much nothing definite to go on. Anyone can claim they're in the Fo. With the information so far available there's not in fact any way to either prove or falsify such a claim. Being able to verify the control of a Bitcoin address is a good step forward. However, NOT being able to do so does not necessarily prove anything.

It seems you're focusing on my use of the word 'proof' which I admit was poorly chosen. Perhaps 'verification' would've been more appropriate.

Suppose the person used an old wallet they meanwhile abandoned to send money to GLBSE a significant interval ago and never since made withdrawals. Suppose the person only used a 3rd party, such as for instance some webwallet service that doesn't support signing or that mixes client funds.

If ownership of an address cannot be established (particularly in conjunction with an email address), then sadly no further action can be taken. In this circumstance, responsibility rests with the address owner as it is completely outside of giga's control, as well as nefario's.

1. Person makes claim for Fo, is on list, is able to sign with address. Are they a legitimate owner? Maybe (unless, for instance, they colluded with Nefario to falsify the list for their benefit - which'd be one possible explanation for the delay).

This is the only option offering a reasonable solution because of the ability to sign. Yes, it's still a maybe to the extent that the list could be misrepresented. However, from the contact I've received, the process appears to be above-board (both from the asset-issues and nefario) and I'm inclined to accept it as legitimate thus far.

If existing forum registration exists and can be associated with an email, it could provide an additional form of verification without submitting personally identifiable information. Illegitimate control of both an email address and Bitcoin address is unlikely.

Perhaps giga can put any unclaimed funds back into the operation.

Now, you say "it's reasonable to conclude". Is this you offering an indemnity, in the sense you'll pay out of pocket anything and everything if that assumption turns sour? Yes, my choice of words may not be to your liking. Sticks and stones.

This depends on whether asset ownership is retained or liquidated. If funds are to be returned, then there is no way to truly provide indemnification, even with personal information being provided. On the other hand, if the shares issued are to remain linked to the respective Bitcoin and email addresses, I would have no reason to deny indemnity (which would not require personal information, either). Of course, I cannot speak for everyone.
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November 24, 2012, 08:47:31 PM
 #1294

Though the 5 Mh will worth nothing once the ASICs are out. But still, the Bitcoin( dividend of the shares) worth something. Shouldnt they be distrubuted? Giga knows our address!

The only one who will make a profit is giga's lawyer  Smiley

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November 24, 2012, 08:56:25 PM
 #1295

To the bitcoin community:

We are all in the very unenviable position of riding in the wake of the aftermath of James McCarthy. I have been placed in a very bad spot in this wake, and my only goal is to protect and serve Gigaminers as I have over the last half year.

I would like to point out that I am the only asset issuer on GLBSE, as far as I am aware, who is trying to move forward and abide by all the laws of local, state, federal and international law. I am the only asset issuer, as far as I am aware, to hire legal counsel and to send via certified mail, a demand letter to James McCarthy after multiple unanswered emails and phone calls. I am fairly confident that the asset lists only started arriving once the letter was received.

Further more, how exactly would you like me to handle situations where claims are made against gigamining that are not in the list provided from GLBSE? Should I and all Gigaminers just keep trusting nefario? This is the exact reason to have a claims process in the first place. Nefario is withholding information for a mistake he made, Gigaminers should not have to suffer because of Nefario's mistakes any longer.

I have received claims for over 10% of Gigamining that are NOT on the lists given to me by GLBSE. This is a significant percentage and it warrants the claims process.

Finally, what should happen if I pay the wrong individual a large amount of the held coins? Guess what, I'm still on the hook according to the law. It is only right to protect the interests of all Gigaminers by making sure I have legal recourse should such a situation occur.

I hope it is clear that I am only trying to clean up and move forward from the situation at hand.

Best regards,
James

I've decided that gigavps will not get a scammer tag for this. Nefario has proven himself to be untrustworthy, so it would be unreasonable for gigavps to pay out large sums of money based entirely on Nefario's list. Requiring affidavits and proofs of identity are reasonable precautions. It's impossible to strictly follow the contract in a safe way.
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November 24, 2012, 09:06:35 PM
 #1296

This begs the question:

If the list given by Nefario to Giga is false, how is a lawyer going to fix this? It's not like the lawyer has the true list and we have to prove ourselves to him first.

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November 24, 2012, 09:10:07 PM
 #1297

This begs the question:

If the list given by Nefario to Giga is false, how is a lawyer going to fix this? It's not like the lawyer has the true list and we have to prove ourselves to him first.

The only way to do so is to compare notes from all parties to try and verify the information given by GLBSE.

I am yet to understand why somebody being able to prove they own the private key associated with the account isnt good enough proof of ownership. What does all the other detail you demand have over this? I didnt register any of the information with GLBSE, so what are you trying to do here? i think thats pretty clear, grab yourself minimum 6 TH/s unit from BFL off the mini rigs we all paid for.

Proving you own a private key provides no legal recourse should you be proven to be colluding with Mr. McCarthy.
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November 24, 2012, 09:18:11 PM
 #1298

Theory like that.

Let's suppose Nefario removed some real asset holders from the list, to put false information for addresses controlled by him.  Based on the data GLBSE requested to make an account, it's probably a bunch of usernames with BTC address and assets ID. It's not that hard for Nefario to create a dozen of BTC addresses and simply change some of the address in the list. What happen if gigavps blindly follow the list without any verification?

Don't forget Nefario IS a scammer and has proven himself untrustworthy.

I don't own any gigamining assets, I'm simply looking at that and consider that gigavps is in a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation.
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November 24, 2012, 09:19:37 PM
 #1299

Stop trying to make yourself feel better, you know you are screwing everyone here with this process, personal identification for most people here (not myself) is the basis for alot of this anger and with justification imho.

I am yet to understand why somebody being able to prove they own the private key associated with the account isnt good enough proof of ownership. What does all the other detail you demand have over this? I didnt register any of the information with GLBSE, so what are you trying to do here? i think thats pretty clear, grab yourself minimum 6 TH/s unit from BFL off the mini rigs we all paid for.

Well that was idea from start charge you boys through the nose for these machines making the extra hashes for himself he just has become even greedier little prick trying to get more of yours now that circumstances permit. And I see he must have greased the right people as he still has the golden boy status according to theymos, better screen shot every bit of information you find those awkward posts have a way of disappearing on this forum.

Edit: And now I see the top of the page apparently polls are subject to censorship now as well.
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November 24, 2012, 09:24:49 PM
 #1300

Theory like that.

Let's suppose Nefario removed some real asset holders from the list, to put false information for addresses controlled by him.  Based on the data GLBSE requested to make an account, it's probably a bunch of usernames with BTC address and assets ID. It's not that hard for Nefario to create a dozen of BTC addresses and simply change some of the address in the list. What happen if gigavps blindly follow the list without any verification?

Don't forget Nefario IS a scammer and has proven himself untrustworthy.

I don't own any gigamining assets, I'm simply looking at that and consider that gigavps is in a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation.

To be honest, the only reason I vote for scammer tag is because he's gone to a lawyer. I understand that many on this forum aren't anarchists, but from an anarchist's point of view, going to a lawyer to solve your disputes is like going to your local KKK.

Calling a criminal organization for help is never a good idea.

What's the alternative? It's shitty, no doubt. Had I been in Giga's shoes I never would have contacted a lawyer to get the list, which means I likely never would have gotten the list, which means all share holders get F'ed. I probably would have just donated all of the proceeds to charities or something. At least then I couldn't be accused of benefiting from others' loss.

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