Gigamining / Teramining

[bulanula]

So, let me get this right : what is going to happen when the ASIC pulls up and all these bonds will be totally worthless ?

Can you upgrade to say a 500 mhash/s bond then when the speeds are measured in TH/s instead of GH/s ?

Thanks !

Hi bulanula,

Please see the quote below for clarification.

Best regards,
gigavps

That being said, I am considering creating a new security, where holders of gigamining could volunteer to upgrade their gigamining bonds to the new bond, plus a fee. This would both keep the existing gigamining contract intact and would allow for an upgrade path for those interested in doing so.

All of this is still many months away, so until then, gigamining will remain at 5Mh/s. When the mini rigs arrive, we will still celebrate with 110% coupon payments for three weeks. Looking beyond, gigamining will continue to be both the largest and best perpetual mining bond in existence.

Thank you for the clarification gigavps. Very professional and fast response !

Also the upgrade plan sounds very promising in light of the coming ASICs.

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[jamesg]

To all gigaminers:

In light of how the Butterfly labs trade-in program works, I have decided hold back on ordering the 4 new mini rigs and will instead be ordering 4 SC mini rigs when BFL decides to accept orders. The net effect of this will allow for gigaminers to be one of the first to join in on ASIC profits when this equipment starts to ship.

Once I have more clarification from BFL around how all of this will work, I will post another update.

As for today's delivery of the first 4 mini rigs, I have a tracking number and the carrier says it is guaranteed for today.

Best,
gigavps

[bulanula]

To all gigaminers:

In light of how the Butterfly labs trade-in program works, I have decided hold back on ordering the 4 new mini rigs and will instead be ordering 4 SC mini rigs when BFL decides to accept orders. The net effect of this will allow for gigaminers to be one of the first to join in on ASIC profits when this equipment starts to ship.

Once I have more clarification from BFL around how all of this will work, I will post another update.

As for today's delivery of the first 4 mini rigs, I have a tracking number and the carrier says it is guaranteed for today.

Best,
gigavps

Great news ! Can't wait for the pictures of the mini rigs today !

Seems the trade in is not working as well for BFL as they planned

People that bought the devices already are not totally shafted by the 50% tradein arrangement but new orders of the normal devices are halted until the ASIC arrives ?

It seems that is true, seeing how gigavps cancelled his order for another 4 mini rigs.

[P4man]

The net effect of this will allow for gigaminers to be one of the first to join in on ASIC profits when this equipment starts to ship.

How do bond holders benefit from you -or anyone else- acquiring several terrahash? AFAIK you dont sell shares, but bonds who's value is directly and inversely related to difficulty. Your 4 minirig SCs alone would push down your bond holders value by some 20%.

[GeoRW]

The net effect of this will allow for gigaminers to be one of the first to join in on ASIC profits when this equipment starts to ship.

How do bond holders benefit from you -or anyone else- acquiring several terrahash? AFAIK you dont sell shares, but bonds who's value is directly and inversely related to difficulty. Your 4 minirig SCs alone would push down your bond holders value by some 20%.

He's considering his own trade-in program for Gigamining bond holders, so they can upgrade their bonds (for some fee) when ASICS come. Check this thread backwards. It was said some time earlier.

[pieppiep]

The net effect of this will allow for gigaminers to be one of the first to join in on ASIC profits when this equipment starts to ship.

How do bond holders benefit from you -or anyone else- acquiring several terrahash? AFAIK you dont sell shares, but bonds who's value is directly and inversely related to difficulty. Your 4 minirig SCs alone would push down your bond holders value by some 20%.

That being said, I am considering creating a new security, where holders of gigamining could volunteer to upgrade their gigamining bonds to the new bond, plus a fee. This would both keep the existing gigamining contract intact and would allow for an upgrade path for those interested in doing so.

All of this is still many months away, so until then, gigamining will remain at 5Mh/s. When the mini rigs arrive, we will still celebrate with 110% coupon payments for three weeks. Looking beyond, gigamining will continue to be both the largest and best perpetual mining bond in existence.

My guess?
I assume the new hardware costs the same amount of money as the old hardware, the speed of the new hardware is 100 times faster, so the new bonds will be 500Mh/s.
The old bonds has a value around 1.1BTC before arrival of the asic's, the new bonds will be released at 1.3BTC each.
The holders of the old bonds can choose to upgrade the old ones to new ones for 0.5BTC each.

I assume I have the numbers all wrong, but this is how I personally would do such a thing.
I hope gigavps thinks like me and does something like this.

[P4man]

He's considering his own trade-in program for Gigamining bond holders, so they can upgrade their bonds (for some fee) when ASICS come. Check this thread backwards. It was said some time earlier.

So you are pegging your hopes on gigavps' consideration of voluntarily and partially compensating you for the massive loss of value that your bonds are about to suffer. I can see how you would get excited by that.

Dont get me wrong, whats about to happen is of course not giga's fault and if he does offer a below market price upgrade to larger bonds, thats certainly laudable, but it doesnt change the fact that any current mining bond holder should not exactly get excited by the prospect of ASICs making their entry.

[GeoRW]

He's considering his own trade-in program for Gigamining bond holders, so they can upgrade their bonds (for some fee) when ASICS come. Check this thread backwards. It was said some time earlier.

So you are pegging your hopes on gigavps' consideration of voluntarily and partially compensating you for the massive loss of value that your bonds are about to suffer. I can see how you would get excited by that.

Dont get me wrong, whats about to happen is of course not giga's fault and if he does offer a below market price upgrade to larger bonds, thats certainly laudable, but it doesnt change the fact that any current mining bond holder should not exactly get excited by the prospect of ASICs making their entry.

If you refer to me personally, I already shorted all of my gigamining bonds that I bought earlier some time ago and was trading with them since. I already recovered all losses caused by value drop. And actually I've never held bigger amounts of mining bonds as it was very risky investment since the beginning, especially when you hold large amounts. Due to the low liquidity on GLBSE, you're locked in holding these bonds whatever happens on such unstable market environment as it is in the bitcoin world (especially mining funds got heavy losses).
I just honestly responded to P4man question here about what gigavps is considering to do 

[jamesg]

So you are pegging your hopes on gigavps' consideration of voluntarily and partially compensating you for the massive loss of value that your bonds are about to suffer. I can see how you would get excited by that.

Dont get me wrong, whats about to happen is of course not giga's fault and if he does offer a below market price upgrade to larger bonds, thats certainly laudable, but it doesnt change the fact that any current mining bond holder should not exactly get excited by the prospect of ASICs making their entry.

Hi P4man,

Asking direct questions will get you direct answers. As for purchasing equipment that will devalue gigamining's bond value, this is the situation I am faced with.

There are two options I see:

1. Don't do anything when ASIC comes out and watch all of my efforts with gigamining get eaten up by others with ASIC.
2. Offer something to gigaminers that allows for the opportunity to jump on an otherwise very costly ASIC investment.

I would rather do option #2. What the exact details of this are depends on a couple factors that we will not know until a later date. If you think I'm going to turn my back on the bitcoin community or gigaminers and walk away, you best think again. I am here to do what is right, not what is convenient.

Best regards,
gigavps

[jamesg]

My guess?

I assume the new hardware costs the same amount of money as the old hardware, the speed of the new hardware is 100 times faster, so the new bonds will be 500Mh/s.

The old bonds has a value around 1.1BTC before arrival of the asic's, the new bonds will be released at 1.3BTC each.
The holders of the old bonds can choose to upgrade the old ones to new ones for 0.5BTC each.

I assume I have the numbers all wrong, but this is how I personally would do such a thing.
I hope gigavps thinks like me and does something like this.

Hi pieppiep,

Your idea seems sound. We will have to wait until we are a lot closer to the time ASIC actually arrives to decided what the final values will be.

Best,
gigavps

[P4man]

Hi P4man,

Asking direct questions will get you direct answers. As for purchasing equipment that will devalue gigamining's bond value, this is the situation I am faced with.

There are two options I see:

1. Don't do anything when ASIC comes out and watch all of my efforts with gigamining get eaten up by others with ASIC.
2. Offer something to gigaminers that allows for the opportunity to jump on an otherwise very costly ASIC investment.

I would rather do option #2. What the exact details of this are depends on a couple factors that we will not know until a later date. If you think I'm going to turn my back on the bitcoin community or gigaminers and walk away, you best think again. I am here to do what is right, not what is convenient.

Best regards,
gigavps

You run a business, you should do what makes financial sense for your business. You have no obligations to your bondholders other than whats in the contract. That asics are about to render those bonds almost worthless is not your "fault" or responsibility, and frankly there isnt much you can do about it even if you wanted. Buying asics yourself or not doesnt change a thing, because someone else will anyway.

What I was responding to, was just your enthusiasm about getting asics later, it sounded as if gigaminers were supposed to be happy about that; shareholders might be (but IMO shouldnt),  but any rational bond holder will feel the exact opposite.

As for what to do; heh, thats obviously your call. Ive posted a gazillion posts already why I think buying asics is something in between russian roulette and certain suicide, that was my position when BFL announced minirigs and I feared and predicted this would happen; but you already have a significant investment in BFL FPGAs, that does change things. The BFL trade up program will put FPGA owners like you in the uncomfortable position of having to chose between doubling their bet (and a bet that  I think is more than just risky, unless you get some special treatment and/or guarantees from BFL) or eating the losses on those mini rigs.

If I where you, Id do neither, and try to sell all my BFL gear to someone willing to play russian roulette with those asics;  but hey, thats just me. If you decide the other way, I just hope I will be able to short bonds by then

Speaking of which, GeoRW , how exactly did you short those bonds?

[yochdog]

To all gigaminers:

In light of how the Butterfly labs trade-in program works, I have decided hold back on ordering the 4 new mini rigs and will instead be ordering 4 SC mini rigs when BFL decides to accept orders. The net effect of this will allow for gigaminers to be one of the first to join in on ASIC profits when this equipment starts to ship.

Once I have more clarification from BFL around how all of this will work, I will post another update.

As for today's delivery of the first 4 mini rigs, I have a tracking number and the carrier says it is guaranteed for today.

Best,
gigavps

Giga,

Have you seen details on the trade-in program?  All I have seen is vague statements by BFL and blind ass speculation by forum members.  Any help would be appreciated.

[GeoRW]

Hi P4man,

Asking direct questions will get you direct answers. As for purchasing equipment that will devalue gigamining's bond value, this is the situation I am faced with.

There are two options I see:

1. Don't do anything when ASIC comes out and watch all of my efforts with gigamining get eaten up by others with ASIC.
2. Offer something to gigaminers that allows for the opportunity to jump on an otherwise very costly ASIC investment.

I would rather do option #2. What the exact details of this are depends on a couple factors that we will not know until a later date. If you think I'm going to turn my back on the bitcoin community or gigaminers and walk away, you best think again. I am here to do what is right, not what is convenient.

Best regards,
gigavps

You run a business, you should do what makes financial sense for your business. You have no obligations to your bondholders other than whats in the contract. That asics are about to render those bonds almost worthless is not your "fault" or responsibility, and frankly there isnt much you can do about it even if you wanted. Buying asics yourself or not doesnt change a thing, because someone else will anyway.

What I was responding to, was just your enthusiasm about getting asics later, it sounded as if gigaminers were supposed to be happy about that; shareholders might be (but IMO shouldnt),  but any rational bond holder will feel the exact opposite.

As for what to do; heh, thats obviously your call. Ive posted a gazillion posts already why I think buying asics is something in between russian roulette and certain suicide, that was my position when BFL announced minirigs and I feared and predicted this would happen; but you already have a significant investment in BFL FPGAs, that does change things. The BFL trade up program will put FPGA owners like you in the uncomfortable position of having to chose between doubling their bet (and a bet that  I think is more than just risky, unless you get some special treatment and/or guarantees from BFL) or eating the losses on those mini rigs.

If I where you, Id do neither, and try to sell all my BFL gear to someone willing to play russian roulette with those asics;  but hey, thats just me. If you decide the other way, I just hope I will be able to short bonds by then

Speaking of which, GeoRW , how exactly did you short those bonds?

Just sold them when ciuciu was borrowing large amounts of mining bonds. Then bought some of them back for much lower price (even got some at 0.98). Now I'm just keeping a fairly small amount for daily trading. My whole loss was about 1-2%, which I already recovered But if you hold large amount of bonds, that's another story

[Daily Anarchist]

After browsing the BFL website I stumbled across this:

Hey, what the heck? Why’d you come out with this after I just bought a bunch of Singles. I’m going to be left behind!

We hear you loud and clear and we promise to stand by our customers through this technology change with an all inclusive trade in policy designed to protect the dollar value of your existing hardware.

Upon release of BitForce SC based Singles & Mini Rigs, all previous generation BitForce products will enjoy a full 100% trade in value when used towards the purchase of the newer generation replacements.  This means your current device is protected from depreciation through this evolution in technology.  This buy back offer is good for all previous generation BitForce units whether purchased directly from us or from a third party.  Full terms of our obsolescence guarantee will be forthcoming.

Having said this, it’s also important to point out that current generation products enjoy strong relative hashing power today and that will continue to make them profitable up to and through the point of ASIC market penetration when they can be traded in.

I'm assuming this is what the fuss is all about?

It seems to me that if Giga wants to make his current bondholders happy, all he'd have to do is trade in all of his older stuff and get the new ASICs. Without spending any new money Giga will now have X times the amount of processing power. Then Giga could simply multiply the MH/s he offers his bond holders by X amount.

On the one hand, Giga isn't contractually obligated to do that and could reap all of the upgrade rewards for himself. On the other hand, if he leaves his bondholders high and dry, he'll have a tough time getting new investors for all of the NEW ASICs he wants to buy.

Absent from his mind should be those who shorted his bonds. Those people don't actually HOLD any bonds and aren't entitled to any contract, NOR are they Giga's investors, hence, why should he go out of his way to make them happy?

[Daily Anarchist]

Also, consider what BFL is doing here. They COULD be leaving their current customers high and dry with inferior hardware. But they're choosing to make life-long customers. They're doing this by offering kickass upgrades. I think it would be a great move on Giga's part to do the same. That's just my two bitcents. 

[imsaguy]

They don't do free trades. You have to spend more money.

[Daily Anarchist]

They don't do free trades. You have to spend more money.

I don't know if you are referring to me or not, but I don't think I used the term "free trades." Or at least I didn't mean to. But they are offering 100% dollar guarantee buy-back. Either way, he could not spend another dollar and get X times the processing power, or he could spend dollars and get X + Y times the processing power, and then offer X + Y times the processing power to his bondholders for the cost of Y to upgrade.

[yochdog]

They don't do free trades. You have to spend more money.

I don't know if you are referring to me or not, but I don't think I used the term "free trades." Or at least I didn't mean to. But they are offering 100% dollar guarantee buy-back. Either way, he could not spend another dollar and get X times the processing power, or he could spend dollars and get X + Y times the processing power, and then offer X + Y times the processing power to his bondholders for the cost of Y to upgrade.

You are wrong.

They give you 100% dollar credit, but ONLY if you are paying cash for 50% of the price. 

IE, you want to buy a BFL SC mini-rig.....cost is 30,000.....you MUST pay 15,000 in cash, the other half can be an old mini-rig.  You CANNOT trade in 2 mini-rigs for the entire price.  Cash must make up 50% of the sale. 

[MrTeal]

They don't do free trades. You have to spend more money.

I don't know if you are referring to me or not, but I don't think I used the term "free trades." Or at least I didn't mean to. But they are offering 100% dollar guarantee buy-back. Either way, he could not spend another dollar and get X times the processing power, or he could spend dollars and get X + Y times the processing power, and then offer X + Y times the processing power to his bondholders for the cost of Y to upgrade.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88634.msg976288#msg976288

I understand how you are confused. This whole thing has not been explained in detail. If it were a straight trade of old equipment for new our business would fold in a week. Here's how it works: if you buy $599 worth of BFL product--say 4 Jalapenos, you are eligible to send in a Single to exchange for 4 more Jalapenos. You must buy something to be eligible to trade something of equal value. And you don't have to send in your old equipment when you pay for the new--you send it in when you are notified that your ASIC equipment is ready to ship. Does this make sense to you?

Jody

[Daily Anarchist]

They don't do free trades. You have to spend more money.

I don't know if you are referring to me or not, but I don't think I used the term "free trades." Or at least I didn't mean to. But they are offering 100% dollar guarantee buy-back. Either way, he could not spend another dollar and get X times the processing power, or he could spend dollars and get X + Y times the processing power, and then offer X + Y times the processing power to his bondholders for the cost of Y to upgrade.

You are wrong.

They give you 100% dollar credit, but ONLY if you are paying cash for 50% of the price. 

IE, you want to buy a BFL SC mini-rig.....cost is 30,000.....you MUST pay 15,000 in cash, the other half can be an old mini-rig.  You CANNOT trade in 2 mini-rigs for the entire price.  Cash must make up 50% of the sale. 

Okay, then scratch the first part of what I said. Let me reiterate.

Either way, he could not spend another dollar and get X times the processing power, or he could spend dollars and get X + Y times the processing power, and then offer X + Y times the processing power to his bondholders for the cost of Y to upgrade.