Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[DebitMe]

That includes nothing about numbers on where they got their customer compensation package of 25% increase from?  They can say all they want about getting an extra 20 GH/s per chip so its really more than 25% "extra" hashing for 4 months, but if I remember correctly, that number has changed for the 3rd time now.  Should be taken with a grain of salt I believe.

So, whose idea was it to give us all 25% more hashing power, and what are some other options as many have shown through math and opinions, this is not a proper compensation package and it will not make up for delays.

Also I would like some answers on avenues for achieving refunds.  If it will be such a successful launch as Matt has claimed, then there should be relatively few people asking for refunds and should not be a big deal at all.  Please let us know then how we can go about requesting those.

[goozman96]

If you look at that thread when I posted his first reply to my PM, he was more than ready to offer me a refund.

[goozman96]

If you look at that thread when I posted his first reply to my PM, he was more than ready to offer me a refund.

Who offered a refund?  So far anyone I've spoke to says it's out of their hands send in a ticket.

http://ecointalk.net/topic/463-we-want-answers/?p=2107

[Pentax]

Fair and just as it may be, it's never going to happen. There is no way they have enough previous generation hardware to accommodate that, which is probably why they are offering the 25%.

I am disappointed with the delay as I am batch 1 also, and no, it will probably not fully compensate, but we all know when you are buying a preorder of a product that's still in development.. a delay is not exactly a surprise.
[/quote]

probably right, although they indicate they don't have much "on the shelf".

are they running a mine? 

normally I wouldn't split hairs like this, but we've all seen the "everything is on track or a little ahead" "according to the last information I have" or some such thing.  so yes, I do think they would equivocate if it suits them.  they've been doing the tap dance all along and now the claim is they never lied.  that's flat out BS, as far as I'm concerned.  not releasing relevant information is just as good as telling a flat out fish tale.

so the question is, if they don't have much 'on the shelf' what do they have set up and hashing.  are they mining for themselves?  are they running a cloud service?  are they leasing equipment to another organization that is selling mining time?  These questions apply to BA and their subsidiaries, if any, and any related companies which are controlled by BA.

If we're supposed to believe they're just fresh out of hashing power, that's absurd.  It's what they build.

bottom line, they need to take what they've got and turn it to their customers.  if they need more bitfuries, build them.  it will cost them money, and oh well.  they blew it.  "this is the best we can do" is BS.  the best they can do and still pocket a hefty pile of people's money, is more accurate, the way it looks to me.

[goozman96]

HI Thomas

We would like to assure you.this delays are only forProspero X-1 and Prospero X-3 product. this doesnt affect your "Rent-Some-Minions - 4 months (starts in March 2014) order.Thank you for understanding.We appreciate your business with us.


Sincerely
The Black Arrow Team

Not holding my breath, but that would be cool..

How is that possible? If the Rent-Some-Minions will be ready in March then why doesn't everyone who is promised 25% not have their cloud hosting started on March instead of May?

[DebitMe]

HI Thomas

We would like to assure you.this delays are only forProspero X-1 and Prospero X-3 product. this doesnt affect your "Rent-Some-Minions - 4 months (starts in March 2014) order.Thank you for understanding.We appreciate your business with us.


Sincerely
The Black Arrow Team

Not holding my breath, but that would be cool..

How is that possible? If the Rent-Some-Minions will be ready in March then why doesn't everyone who is promised 25% not have their cloud hosting started on March instead of May?

I am guessing that was a mistake, I have seen elsewhere that the rent-a-minion people also got emails saying it would be delayed.  Probably a misunderstanding or miscommunication somewhere here.

[goozman96]

I have reached out for confirmation

[DebitMe]

At the time of the actual shipment we'll make sure that we sell our chip at the market price or lower. All pre-orders will benefit of the same discount by the time that we start shipping. No longer you'll pre-order a hardware today just to discover 3 days later that others can pre-order it at 1/3 of the price you've paid.

Will be watching to see what miners are going for in May.

Very good point, can we get an official statement on this please BA.

[Pentax]

HI Thomas

We would like to assure you.this delays are only forProspero X-1 and Prospero X-3 product. this doesnt affect your "Rent-Some-Minions - 4 months (starts in March 2014) order.Thank you for understanding.We appreciate your business with us.


Sincerely
The Black Arrow Team

Not holding my breath, but that would be cool..

How is that possible? If the Rent-Some-Minions will be ready in March then why doesn't everyone who is promised 25% not have their cloud hosting started on March instead of May?

Damn good question.  The ones that get screwed are those that funded this debacle?

BA pockets rental income, renters get hash power and people that ponied up thousands are left twisting in the wind.

WTF is that crap?! 

[goozman96]

We're absolutely considering further options. Also, I'm hoping to provide better updates but I'm in a different country than the engineers. That makes getting photos more difficult. I will absolutely try my best to get updates out.

So why don't the engineers create forum accounts (if they haven't already) and post here themselves? It takes 5 minutes to post a picture. No one is that busy that they can't make a post once a week.

[goozman96]

Congrats. You did a search for Matt Carson and found a profile that admitted that it was the owner of minersource.net.
You're such a sleuth. You should work for the FBI

[goozman96]

I understand that ASIC's aren't easy,but these delays seem very fishy to me.Just about every producer has been late,I just don't get it 

"Burn in testing"

http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/1Nbq2XZaRsKknf5fcT2wTXvBS31PaUWSeX

Let's say you are a manufacturer, you took a preorder, you finished the machine, and realistically you can ship whenever the hell you want. Why ship before mining becomes close to a break even proposition?

A few may choose to do so out of a sense of honor, or perhaps concern about being revealed as a fraud. Many will not.

The pool operator (wizkid) claims to know who is behind that address too. My guess is BFL.

[OleOle]

What you consider an asshole, sick bastard rubbing it in, I consider using satire to get the word out that the end is neigh and people should start requesting refunds ASAP. Ironically, from you post, you echo the same sentiment.

Hey asshole, I have 16 shares in r17. I don't need your fucking satire. I put faith in the wrong company and I don't need some wanker telling me I fucked up.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=173316.msg4067307#msg4067307

According to what's found at the above link, not only did you put faith in a wrong company, but you spread good cheer for one, not heeding nary a warning by me or others. Now, you want me to shut the fuck up so that I don't warn others in making the same mistake I once tried to warn you about. One of us is seriously fucked up, mate, and it ain't me.

Yeah I made a mistake. I also tried to steer people away from cloudhashing. You on the other hand asked people for 5 Btc then upped it to 10 Btc to tell them they have been screwed by BA. You look like a vulture, smell like a vulture, are a vulture. Only people with low self esteem take pleasure in saying they are right after everyone has suffered. Seriously, you need help. There is no honour in you. You're not doing this out of the goodness of your heart. There is no goodness in you. I am done with you.

I can just hear dead philosophers turning in their graves as they muse over the moral quandry while rubbing their chins where beards may once have grown:

"Hmm... who is more morally good, the scammed or those that did advise the about-to-be-scammed of the scammer?"

On balance, the dead philosophers would probably declare that those who did advise the about-to-be-scammed of the perils of doing business with the scammer would have the higher quotient of goodness in their hearts as they took it upon themselves to inform the about-to-be-scammed of the risks that lay in wait for them. Those about-to-be-scammed who were then in fact scammed cannot seek to claim moral goodness by trumpeting that those who tried to help them avoid being scammed lack goodness in their heart.

As is the way with dead philosophers, with one moral question having been decided to their current satisfaction, they turn further in their graves but not having any other issue on the matter to address, cease stroking their chins where beards may once have grown...

...that is, until one of the dead philosophers with a puzzled expression asks,

"If we know who the about-to-be-scammed, the scammed and the scammer is, then who is the scammee?"

And so in death as in life, questions continue, chins are rubbed where beards may once have grown and the cycle of existence doth continue.







-----

And for the non-philosophically minded there's some information here http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scammee

[OleOle]

blackarrowsoftware miner..


In stock

Availlable April 30th


Is this a non-sense or it's me ?

It is in stock but not for sale now....

Read above posts

For the key information and quality entertainment, at least read from page 85 onwards.

[DebitMe]

Bruno Kucinskas
406 W. Center St.
Sandwich, IL  60548

how many sandwich shops in your town?  I imagine 5 on every street

Dude, why you quothed me? Now me doomith for sure. Oh well, time for lunch. Any suggestions? 

SANDWICHES!!!!!! YAY! sorry to hear about your sign btw

I seem to be at an injunction here.  I think, given the increase in hashrate and compensation plans, that my orders will still be profitable if delivered, but strong evidence is mounting in the other direction that I could never receive a unit.  So the question is, do I take the chance or ask for a refund?   Hmm...dilemmas.

Also, it seems my question is not being answered on the BA forums,  is the 25% increase in hashrate coming from post new chip specs, AKA 120 GH/s a chip, or from pre new chip specs, 100 GH/s a chip?

The answer to this question is the difference of a couple of hundred of GH/s per unit, so clarification would be nice.

[DebitMe]

I am leaning towards refund, Bobsag, are we getting some direction on how this could be accomplished?

[OleOle]

Hi ! Well.. PG is just trolling this forum in an unacceptable way.

Correction, there is no trolling.  The information being provided and the holding of supposed responsible parties to account is more than acceptable, it is completely necessary and is one of the few reasons why any disclosure at all is taking place by a company who received funds in good faith from customers but whose good faith is far from being repaid.

[DebitMe]

I am leaning towards refund, Bobsag, are we getting some direction on how this could be accomplished?

Hope you're holding on to something while you're leaning. Meanwhile, read a related thread that's sinking while others are requesting refunds in front of you, bud: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=335145.0

I do not think others are requesting in front of me, to my knowledge there is no direction so far on how one can receive a refund.

[OleOle]

Hi ! Well.. PG is just trolling this forum in an unacceptable way.

Correction, there is no trolling.  The information being provided and the holding of supposed responsible parties to account is more than acceptable, it is completely necessary and is one of the few reasons why any disclosure at all is taking place by a company who received funds in good faith from customers but whose good faith is far from being repaid.

You are delusional. Quit trolling and do something productive.

You come to this thread knowing that literally every asic manufacturer has experienced delays and act like you predicted the future when it was the same with BA.

Try not to pat yourself on the back too hard.

Notice how the only ones crying for a refund are the ones without orders from BA?

Seriously fuck off. We all knew that when preordering nonexistent hardware there would be a huge chance of delays and we accepted that fact when ordering.

We will get our (still best priced) hardware eventually and you will continue hopping from thread to thread letting everyone who preordered an asic know exactly how stupid they are.

Get a life

No mate, you can fuck off yourself asshole. When members of the community provide information that informs the community at large of nefarious dealings, inconsistent statements, broken promises and attempts to defraud, it sure as hell isn't trolling, it's holding people to account.

If you don't like it that's too fucking bad.

I do hope you get your hardware but in the meantime, direct any anger you have to those who've deliberately lied to you about realistic delivery dates, those who've suckered you in to take the investment risk normally taken by venture capitalists who also become part owners in the business and who have dangled you out on the customer thread with very limited upside, that is, assuming you get a product at all.

You may not like it, but your attempts to shout down meaningful criticism do you no service at all.

[OleOle]

Hi ! Well.. PG is just trolling this forum in an unacceptable way.

Correction, there is no trolling.  The information being provided and the holding of supposed responsible parties to account is more than acceptable, it is completely necessary and is one of the few reasons why any disclosure at all is taking place by a company who received funds in good faith from customers but whose good faith is far from being repaid.

You are delusional. Quit trolling and do something productive.

You come to this thread knowing that literally every asic manufacturer has experienced delays and act like you predicted the future when it was the same with BA.

Try not to pat yourself on the back too hard.

Notice how the only ones crying for a refund are the ones without orders from BA?

Seriously fuck off. We all knew that when preordering nonexistent hardware there would be a huge chance of delays and we accepted that fact when ordering.

We will get our (still best priced) hardware eventually and you will continue hopping from thread to thread letting everyone who preordered an asic know exactly how stupid they are.

Get a life

No mate, you can fuck off yourself asshole. When members of the community provide information that informs the community at large of nefarious dealings, inconsistent statements, broken promises and attempts to defraud, it sure as hell isn't trolling, it's holding people to account.

If you don't like it that's too fucking bad.

I do hope you get your hardware but in the meantime, direct any anger you have to those who've deliberately lied to you about realistic delivery dates, those who've suckered you in to take the investment risk normally taken by venture capitalists who also become part owners in the business and who have dangled you out on the customer thread with very limited upside, that is, assuming you get a product at all.

You may not like it, but your attempts to shout down meaningful criticism do you no service at all.

FUN FACT: Literally EVERYONE who preordered an asic from ANY manufacturer that delivered made a profit in USD if they mined for a week or two then resold the hardware.

The only people who think they are getting scammed are the nerds who think that btc mining must result in a positive ROI in btc and think that the hardware manufacturer can be held accountable for that.

Why are you so mad? The people in this thread who have invested thousands are not even a fraction as irritated as you and PG.

BA is 2 months late. Thats it. If you don't want delays don't preorder a hypothetical product. If you don't mind possible delays and want a spot in line for one of the most cost efficient asics available you might be interested in preordering.


You might want to rethink what you consider "meaningful criticism" because you and PG have done nothing but cry about a delay and scream for refunds even though you never ordered anything from them and never planned to. This is nothing more than "I told you so" but nobody had disagreed in the first place that there would likely be delays.

I think you'll find that there are plenty of people who are disappointed with the conduct of BA, that's what this thread has been discussing for the last ten pages or more, so read back if you're unclear what different people have stated, I'm not going to generalise their reactions like you did in an attempt to prove my point. Suffice to say there's more than a handful of voices expressing discontent.

You asked, "Why are you so mad?" which is really quite ironic as you jumped on my earlier comment where I stated that 'there was no trolling, only a necessary holding to account' and then told me to fuck off. So am I mad? No, not really, so I just told you to fuck off back. Fair's fair, isn't it?

Anyway, I understand that you're ostensibly quite clam about the matter of delays and I suppose you're to be applauded for that. Nothwithstanding your calm, the broader forum community does have a right not only to express an opinion about yet again more customers being suckered into shouldering the business development risk of developmental ASICs, they have a right to hear what other forum members also seek to express and when we've witnessed the wilful attempts to misconstrue and lie, the charade of multiple identities being promulgated and a complete lack of official statement on this, the official thread, then miners in the market looking for new hardware like me are going to express themselves and there's not a damn thing you can do to prevent it, however much confidence you might have in BA, people will not be silenced and should not be silenced or ridiculed as they do their due diligence.

So yeah, I'll be watching this threat, commenting from time to time, learning more, seeing if the 'holding to account' does generate better customer outcomes and you can be sure that other potential buyers and perhaps potential hardware companies will be looking at this thread and the associated outcry.

As commenters above have alluded to, it's saying something when the level of communication with customers is so bad that it's being ranked as worse than the acknowledged lowest standard in the industry:

I remember Butterfly Labs posting tons of pictures and sending "demo units" to journalists and they still "BFL'd" everyone... so BlackArrow showing photos would be more like sticking a bandaid on a gaping, gushing, open wound.  Not gonna do much.

Then again, the fact that they didn't even go as far as Butterfly Labs did during their delays kinda says something as well.

It's precisely these sort of observations that allow potential purchasers time to pause for thought, evaluate alternatives and not just blindly perpetuate dubious business practices which aren't in customers interests at all, they're only in the interests of those companies who are prepared to fleece their customers and pretend it's ok because other companies have done it. Two wrongs don't make a right, never has, never will.