Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[notbatman]

According to coinwarz the X3 (2Th/s) currently makes $30 a day. How many days to ROI is that?

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[notbatman]

The parallels here are uncanny. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HumancentiPad

[notbatman]

Bitmain will ship even sooner, so I for one would get a refund from BA and run.

Except that's not possible. Your only hope for a refund is if you used Minersource as reseller. BA won't refund.

I believe even getting a refund through Minersource will prove difficult (read impossible) . This is proving to be a true New York Style Goat Fuck...

[coda]

Shengzhen Miner Fuck Machine ... Batch 1  
traditional fuck machine for little white guys
- Preorder now !! -

[DebitMe]

http://www.coindesk.com/bitmain-releases-energy-efficient-478ghs-antminer-s3/

https://bitmaintech.com/productDetail.htm?pid=00020140630025130637RV8OhOwt06BC

AH HA, .75 W/GH at the wall.  Well BA, it seems this race was over before the train even left the station.

[server]

[DebitMe]

Since the S3 is less than a dollar per ghash, now fair compensation would be around 6 times your order.  

There is no way they have the money to do that, definitely submitting a refund request today, this has gotten ridiculous and has gone on for too long.

[DebitMe]

I think 2 X2 compensation units per X1 makes it worthwhile.

IDK, its almost to the point that any compensation just isn't worth it.  Sure it may pay out more bitcoin after many months, but you still have to be able to run them.  If someone purchased 10 X-1's back in 2013, they were expecting .55 watts or even .75 watts at the wall (as that is what is still advertised on their website) which would be between 550 and 750 watts, now, for those same 10 X-1's, we are looking at each one using 120 watts ish (I think that's what it was), which would be 1200 watts total.  Now if you start adding compensation on to that, and for the sake of argument they really under deliver on compensation and only give 2x the number ordered, now you have 30 X-1's and are using 3600 watts of power.  That is a much bigger cooling bill, and you have to find some place that you can spread 30 of these things out (since they do not stack and their is no immediate design/plan to stack them), while still being able to supply almost 4 kw of electricity to the space.  It just isn't practical unless you want to pay for hosting, which seriously diminishes returns and guarantees no success of a positive ROI.

[DebitMe]

Bobsag3, can you comment as to whether you will be receiving/shipping units today?

[Pentax]

I think 2 X2 compensation units per X1 makes it worthwhile.

IDK, its almost to the point that any compensation just isn't worth it.  Sure it may pay out more bitcoin after many months, but you still have to be able to run them.  If someone purchased 10 X-1's back in 2013, they were expecting .55 watts or even .75 watts at the wall (as that is what is still advertised on their website) which would be between 550 and 750 watts, now, for those same 10 X-1's, we are looking at each one using 120 watts ish (I think that's what it was), which would be 1200 watts total.  Now if you start adding compensation on to that, and for the sake of argument they really under deliver on compensation and only give 2x the number ordered, now you have 30 X-1's and are using 3600 watts of power.  That is a much bigger cooling bill, and you have to find some place that you can spread 30 of these things out (since they do not stack and their is no immediate design/plan to stack them), while still being able to supply almost 4 kw of electricity to the space.  It just isn't practical unless you want to pay for hosting, which seriously diminishes returns and guarantees no success of a positive ROI.

I have to agree.  the difficulty shooting up to the extent it has has killed this.  We all knew this was coming as other ASIC manufacturers came online, I think, but thought BA would deliver before it happened (February was conservative - HAHA) and we could squeeze some profit out before the difficulty did what it has done.  

They blew it, big time, and at this point it seems impossible that they could compensate enough to make up for the difference.  they may disagree, although I don't know how anyone can believe a thing they say at this point.

I stopped listening to their BS months ago when it became obvious they were going to miss the May 1 deadline also and asked for a refund then, which I still have not seen.  I get nothing but excuses and kicking the can down the road on that front also.  Everyone is just too busy to go to the bank apparently.  In four months no-one has had the time to go to the bank or mail a check.  Give me a break.

If they were half as good at building miners as they were at concocting excuses we'd all be rolling in bitcoin.

[DebitMe]

My letter to MS has been drafted, need some concrete information soon or off it goes.

[DebitMe]

My letter to MS has been drafted, need some concrete information soon or off it goes.

better send the letter and get your $$ back, BA still does not disclose their compensation plan wich means it will be crap just like their lack of information given about production..
do you realy think they will clean up there act at the last minute.?

15 minutes, then it will be sent in, I can take the waiting, it is the lack of information after being told quite blatantly last week that these things would ship Monday.  I gave notices saying I would ask for a refund unless new information was posted about updated timelines and that has failed to be done, as such, it is out of my hands soon.

[DebitMe]

I don't think they care about you as much as you think they do.

I don't really care how they think of me, I have the law on my side.

[DebitMe]

The real issue isn't with minersource, they are trying to uphold their end - unfortunately they don't have your money, black arrow does, it's been sitting in their bank account drawing them interest all this time. I've read their forums a few times and checked out their frequently asked questions; from the looks of things if you want your money back you'll have a long wait (and just may want to get a lawyer involved - class action lawsuit?).

Now personally I think minersource should be applauded if they have been reimbursing customers out of pocket; to me that says a lot about their character; they seem to be doing everything in their power to keep their customers happy. Now if only Black Arrow took a page from their book.

Just be patient with minersource..

I've only had good dealings with them; they no doubt have to field the same questions from hundreds if not thousands of disgruntled customers that are getting fed up with this continuous hold cycle that Black Arrow has thrust upon every one.

While I agree with you 100% and have had nothing but happy dealings with MinerSource, they chose to partner with the likes of BA, and frankly, it doesn't really matter who has my money, as a US citizen who formed an agreement with a US company to deliver goods, they are bound by US laws to refund me if I so choose.  I think you are confusing people as being disgruntled with MinerSource when that is not the problem, but, I can either choose to wait and receive machines that have a 75% chance of not returning what I invested in them over a 6+ month period, or I can get my money back today.  You would have to be a fool at this point to trust BA with any more money or to even deliver a proper product.

[goozman96]

I'd recommend everyone to submit a trust rating for blackarrow's website.
Install Web Of Trust if you don't already have it.
Go to blackarrowsoftware.com
Click the WOT icon. Rate it.
I gave them the lowest rating and chose the options "poor customer experience" and "scam"

[goozman96]

Got an email back from Minersource.

Should I get added to the refund queue and wait it out, or get MS store credit immediately to get potentially a Rocket Box in a few days?

What you guys think?

It's funny how when I requested to have some Dragons or SP-10s sent to me in lieu of the X-3, they said that they can't do hardware exchanges and instead gave me a reduced value refund.
See update.

[goozman96]

Got an email back from Minersource.

Should I get added to the refund queue and wait it out, or get MS store credit immediately to get potentially a Rocket Box in a few days?

What you guys think?

It's funny how when I requested to have some Dragons or SP-10s sent to me in lieu of the X-3, they said that they can't do hardware exchanges and instead gave me a reduced value refund.

You really need to file a complaint here, http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/default.aspx. There is no way that will hold up in court.

Done. Feels much better now. We'll see if anything ever comes of it.

[notbatman]

If BA does ship and it currently looks like they aren't going to. They would need to ship 13x 1Th/s units per X3 to fully compensate custimers for the missed February 24th shipping date. This based on the upcoming network difficulty jump to 20 billion.

BA needs to fold up shop at this point and advise customers that they're not getting refunds or product so they can move on with their lives.

[DebitMe]

Here is my experience in getting a refund. I decided to forgo legal action and took the store credit for 8 X-1's that I had paid $352 a piece for and an extra $100 for shipping.  I was told that the total amount I would be given as credit would be 2,619, about 300 less than what I actually paid.  After showing historical charts of the bitcoin price and the price I paid per unit, and how it could not possibly be as low as that, Dan admitted that something on their spreadsheet may be wrong by accident, and we settled on a little over 2800.  I decided to waive on pursuing the other 100 dollars that I paid for shipping, and chalked it up to being happy to getting something, helping to pay for Bobsag3's trip, and as a tip to MinerSource for the $hit that they are being put through.

I took the refund that I got for 8 X-1's, for those keeping track at 120 GH/s that is 960 GH/s and over 1 kw of power, and bought 5 S3's that will be available in about 2 weeks (lol I know, but Bitmain is definitely reputable and I would expect delivery even before that time frame knowing them).  They run at 478 GH/s and use 366 watts of power.  That comes out to almost 2.4 TH/s while using 1.83 kw's of power.  I also was able to get 1 month of colocation on my order, and I paid the difference of a few hundred dollars out of my pocket (See I am definitely willing to do business with MS again).  I will be buying some breakout boards to power these once the colocation is done and I choose not to renew it.

In recap, a very quick process to get store credit and almost instantly received 3X hashing power (and I will bet that they get delivered and come on line quicker than the X-1's or X-3's would, also without the hassle that all X-1's seem to be giving anyone who has them).  BA has always said that you will in the end be happy that you went with them, well now I am since I got 3 times what I originally bought from them, from another company!

[goozman96]

Nice to see others get treated better by Minersource. When I requested my $4800 refund, Dan Murtha told me no and only gave me $3600. When I requested replacement hardware, Dan Murtha told me no, they can't offer replacement hardware. When I posted about my displeasure on the forum, Dan Murtha said I flame and threaten them and don't want anymore of my business. And now, they're giving people USD valued refunds (refused to honor for me) and giving store credit/replacement hardware (also refused to honor for me). So forgive me, Dan Murtha, if I "flame" you for treating me worse than your other customers. Minersource will forever be on my shit list until they right the wrong they did towards me.
See update.